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Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

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    Originally posted by Khentkawes View Post
    I have a tough time with certain cliches, and this is one of them. For some reason it just doesn't work for me in this case. Although, maybe that's partially because of how Sam is written early in the seasons? It's been a while since I watched season 1, but I seem to recall liking the way Sam handled Jonas Hanson. From what I recall, she stood up to him, admitted her past mistakes, and handled the whole situation very confidently. So then later in the series when she seems more hesitant around Jack and unsure of her own mind with Pete, it just doesn't make as much sense to me.
    Good point.

    Originally posted by Frostfox View Post

    People who are emotionally handicapped tend to be like that in all their social interactions and romantic relationships. Sam was clearly shown to be quite capable in her dealings with Jonas, even though she was obviously much younger and much less experienced when she was engaged to him. And poorly written as Pete was, Sam acted completely normally in her relationship with him.
    At least most of the time.

    No, it's only Jack, uberman, alpha above all alpha men which turns her into a simpering school ma'am, robs her of any dignity, common sense, and even her taste in clothes.


    As it was shown on SG1, and particularly when it was bumped up to be an A or B plot, it fails miserably and detracts from what kept the show on the air for 10 year, makes the characters look inconsistent, foolish, even pathetic at times. And that's a shame and a waste of good characters and screen time.

    FF
    Maybe b/c you had different writers each with their own ideas on this aspect? Maybe they tried to appease fans too much?
    Last edited by jckfan55; 15 July 2010, 09:22 AM. Reason: fix quote

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      Originally posted by jckfan55 View Post
      yep, everyone has different tastes. I found RDA more attractive in his O'Neill years than in the McGyver ones.
      Oh, undoubtedly, no argument there! But I'm afraid mullets do not an attractive man make, and I found McGyver (what little I've seen of it) too formulaic for my tastes.
      He's a very attractive man, I just don't go weak at the knees at the very thought of him. I don't with Michael or Chris either, and I find Daniel more attractive than Michael, brains are sexy.

      FF
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        Originally posted by jckfan55 View Post
        Maybe b/c you had different writers each with their own ideas on this aspect? Maybe they tried to appease fans too much?
        Skydiver said once, and I agree wholeheartedly, that there were too many different writers trying to please their own muses.

        It would have been much better to have an overall, more cohesive writing, with a proper show 'bible', not just for little details (such as how long it was since Jacob was blended or characters ages) but for more fundamental issues of character and motivations.

        FF
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          Originally posted by discodiva View Post
          Firefly's worth it for sure.....Supernatural - again like you I don't get the fuss....boring storylines, very uninspiring main characters and not that pretty to me (yep I have to have the shallow side of teh pretties in my male leads most times ) and dark and dismal lighting....tried a million times to get into it and just can't....
          I'll finish the first season (didn't pay much for it on Amazon) but I don't 'get' it.

          Originally posted by discodiva View Post
          Continuum stands out to me in only two ways....Michael was so very beautiful in it and Daniel's plight should have been "fleshed out" further (excuse the pun) and our timeline Jack was nauseating in his silliness.....and as for that stupid obscure "Moonbase" reference at the end?....just why?...
          cryptic? Nope - romantic? Nope - simply a plain annoying and WTF moment? Yep!....

          I wanted to see much more of Sam, Daniel and Cam adjusting. And more of Alt Jack.
          Though I liked the nod to 'A Dog's Breakfast' in the breakfast cereal Sam chose. I like to see the show supporting other actors involved (and I'd only watched A Dog's Breakfast a couple of days before Continuum.

          Originally posted by discodiva View Post
          Alt.Timeline!Jack should have been in it more and his relationship with the other three given more time.....sadly I think they over-hyped the fact that RDA was going to be in this when he wasn't for very much time, and spent a hell of a lot of time and money doing their, admittedly very beautiful, Arctic shots.....
          The arctic stuff was beautiful, but as always, I'd rather have good character stuff over pretty scenes or too much action (Ark of Truth's problem) any day.

          Originally posted by discodiva View Post
          And for S/J ship in it?....well to me any attempts at it were as clumsy as the most clumsiest person clopping around with big boots on in Clumsey Town....

          Deeds xx
          When is it not clumsy? It's either so subtle you need a sekrit decoder ring to even see it's there, or so OTT melodrama that it stands out like a sore thumb and only belongs in a soap. Nothing in between.

          FF
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            Ohh i'd forgotten about the Cereal in Continuum That gave me a chuckle.

            I recall hearing someone mention how it was so shippy that Sam missed Jack so much that she'd choose a cereal he loved to remember him by

            Like... What? *shakes head in confusion* That's the best they can do?

            I've often heard that with Sam/Jack, you can choose whether or not a scene is shippy or not. It's often tauted as a positive thing...

            WHAT? What is SG-1? A Choose your own Ship story?

            If the primary alpha ship of the story can be completely whitewashed depending on how you see it... isn't that a failing in writing? Realistically speaking, how many scenes in SG-1 are intrinsically and undeniably "shippy'? Divide and Conquer? Affinity? Threads?

            That's it? WTF?

            It's sad how a show that i really loved enough to actually get into the fandom has gone down so much in my eyes because once i actually started looking at it critically, i saw so many glaring holes and WTF moments. I still would watch it and enjoy it, but there's so much potential lost, so many unresolved threads, and so much just whitewashed away with the big reset button that it's kinda like watching old episodes of Law and Order.

            Except Law and Order didn't involve cheap melodrama unless it added to the characters or story. Some may remember Ray's wife and how that hollywood exec really wanted to get into his pants. His honor and saying no put a smile on my face
            Originally posted by Apostle's Message Redux
            Shepard understood. Given the situation, he wasn't sure that exposing the planet to this kind of secret was smart. Miranda had regaled him with stories of how horrible 20th century Earth sounded in her history lessons and it made him leery. "I agree, god knows what would happen if Grunt got loose."

            Joker snorted and muttered loudly. "Run! It's The Incredible Hulk! Kill it with fire!"
            Read the story ---- Apostle's Message Redux, ME/SG Crossover

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              Originally posted by Frostfox View Post

              I wanted to see much more of Sam, Daniel and Cam adjusting. And more of Alt Jack.
              Yes. These are people we've spent years getting to know and they're ripped out of their world. How do they cope?

              The arctic stuff was beautiful, but as always, I'd rather have good character stuff over pretty scenes or too much action (Ark of Truth's problem) any day.
              there were some good moments in Continuum, but it was too much of the Cam Mitchell show for this old time fan. And I think a lot of the moments (as usual) were "made" by the actors.

              AOT felt like an overlong episode to me. As I recall we had an opening self indulgent helicopter shot (RCC), Cam getting beaten up (he would have been dead or in a coma) and Sam/laptop.

              ETA: ARagon101--es, L&O succeeded in part by sticking with what it did best. We sometimes got specific personal situations with characters, (typically based on what we had learned about them in bits and pieces over many episodes) but as you say, not melodrama.

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                Originally posted by Aragon101 View Post
                Ohh i'd forgotten about the Cereal in Continuum That gave me a chuckle.

                I recall hearing someone mention how it was so shippy that Sam missed Jack so much that she'd choose a cereal he loved to remember him by

                Like... What? *shakes head in confusion* That's the best they can do?

                I've often heard that with Sam/Jack, you can choose whether or not a scene is shippy or not. It's often tauted as a positive thing...

                WHAT? What is SG-1? A Choose your own Ship story?

                If the primary alpha ship of the story can be completely whitewashed depending on how you see it... isn't that a failing in writing? Realistically speaking, how many scenes in SG-1 are intrinsically and undeniably "shippy'? Divide and Conquer? Affinity? Threads?

                That's it? WTF?

                It's sad how a show that i really loved enough to actually get into the fandom has gone down so much in my eyes because once i actually started looking at it critically, i saw so many glaring holes and WTF moments. I still would watch it and enjoy it, but there's so much potential lost, so many unresolved threads, and so much just whitewashed away with the big reset button that it's kinda like watching old episodes of Law and Order.

                Except Law and Order didn't involve cheap melodrama unless it added to the characters or story. Some may remember Ray's wife and how that hollywood exec really wanted to get into his pants. His honor and saying no put a smile on my face
                Re: The bolded, works for me, anytime I can ignore S/J, I will do, but you're right, they should really have had the courage in their convictions; if you know you are doing a love story, you should do it properly, with a beginning, middle and end. Not bumbling along aimlessly, dropping it, picking it up again, dropping it, then letting it fizzle out.
                I might think it was a big miss-step for the characters, but the dithering did them no favours either.

                I'm sorry for all the posts earlier, IE at work was not having multiquote, was driving me nuts. Firefox on my iBook seems much happier with GW.

                FF
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                  so agree about SPN I have tried it twice didn't like it and agree about Daniel being more sexy than Michael yes to Firefly/Serenity it is worth it.

                  Continuum was ok but I really didn't see anything ship wise cearal scene was week if that was SJ ship
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                    Originally posted by jckfan55 View Post
                    Maybe b/c you had different writers each with their own ideas on this aspect? Maybe they tried to appease fans too much?
                    Yep, I would imagine this had something to do with it. Still, there are quite a few TV shows out there who have multiple writers and don't have such inconsistent characterizations. Maybe they just spent more time hashing some of these things out in the writing room. Or maybe the head writer has the final say on things. I don't know. But I definitely think that the idea of pleasing the fans is part of the problem. I can see that TPTB should respect the fans and even listen to them in certain situations... but with Stargate they took it way too far.

                    Originally posted by Frostfox View Post
                    Oh, undoubtedly, no argument there! But I'm afraid mullets do not an attractive man make, and I found McGyver (what little I've seen of it) too formulaic for my tastes.
                    He's a very attractive man, I just don't go weak at the knees at the very thought of him. I don't with Michael or Chris either, and I find Daniel more attractive than Michael, brains are sexy.
                    I think I found MacGyver's personality more attractive than Jack's. Which is not to say that I don't like Jack as a character, because I do. Heck, for a long time he was my second favorite character in all of Stargate. But I found his sense of humor wearing on me the longer the series went on. A while after SG-1 ended, I saw an old episode or two of MacGyver and I had completely forgotten how different RDA was then, when he had to play a character who was all about intelligence and compassion (both of which are characteristics that Jack possessed, but were rarely shown or addressed... more often it was sarcastic quips mixed with his serious military side). So for some reason, his personality in MacGyver makes him more attractive to me than in Stargate. Plus I'm sure that the happy childhood memories of MacGyver don't hurt.

                    But yeah, the less said about the mullet, the better.

                    Originally posted by Aragon101 View Post
                    WHAT? What is SG-1? A Choose your own Ship story?
                    ROTFL! That's exactly what it is! You deserve green for that, it's such an awesomely perfect description of SG-1 (and even more appropriate for SGA, really). Oh, so funny.

                    EDIT to add: You know, I used to always re-read those "choose your own adventure" books until I'd tried out every possible ending and then pick the one I liked best. Which is pretty much the point of fanfic... it lets the fans try out all kinds of different things that they didn't see on the screen. Probably not the best way to write a TV series though: "Oh well, so this ship didn't work... let's try another one!" Though now I really want to re-write SG-1 as a choose your own adventure book.

                    And on the subject of Continuum... I didn't think it was bad. I actually rather enjoyed it as a fun, mostly pointless romp. I could have done with less dialogue for the real Jack (liked the alt!Jack better, although I was perfectly fine with only seeing him for the few scenes he had... anymore would have felt unnecessary to me). I actually really enjoyed the way Cameron, Sam, Daniel, and Teal'c all worked together. So yeah, it was enjoyable despite the overused time travel reset (which, at least made sense this time around, unlike Moebius where the time travel was so convoluted that it wasn't even worth trying to follow). There was only one part that felt like it was trying to be shippy to me, and that was when Mitchell put his hand on Sam's shoulder and gave her the little pep talk thing when they ended up in Antarctica and Sam was all upset over Jack's "death." But I can handle it because Cam was awesome at that moment. He was focused, compassionate, and making sure his team worked as a team to handle the crisis at hand. Which always makes me happy. Yeah, completely unashamed Cameron lover here.

                    and I'll take any excuse I can to use that smilie.
                    Last edited by Khentkawes; 15 July 2010, 11:32 PM.
                    Chief of the GGP (Gateworld Grammar Police). Punctuation is your friend. Use it!

                    Great happy armies shall be gathered and trained to oppose all who embrace doubt. In the name of Hope, ships shall be built to carry our disciples out amongst the stars, and we will spread Optimism to all the doubters. The power of the Optimi will be felt far and wide, and the pessimists shall become positive-thinkers.
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                      Originally posted by Khentkawes View Post
                      ROTFL! That's exactly what it is! You deserve green for that, it's such an awesomely perfect description of SG-1 (and even more appropriate for SGA, really). Oh, so funny.

                      And on the subject of Continuum... I didn't think it was bad. I actually rather enjoyed it as a fun, mostly pointless romp. I could have done with less dialogue for the real Jack (liked the alt!Jack better, although I was perfectly fine with only seeing him for the few scenes he had... anymore would have felt unnecessary to me). I actually really enjoyed the way Cameron, Sam, Daniel, and Teal'c all worked together. So yeah, it was enjoyable despite the overused time travel reset (which, at least made sense this time around, unlike Moebius where the time travel was so convoluted that it wasn't even worth trying to follow). There was only one part that felt like it was trying to be shippy to me, and that was when Mitchell put his hand on Sam's shoulder and gave her the little pep talk thing when they ended up in Antarctica and Sam was all upset over Jack's "death." But I can handle it because Cam was awesome at that moment. He was focused, compassionate, and making sure his team worked as a team to handle the crisis at hand. Which always makes me happy. Yeah, completely unashamed Cameron lover here.

                      and I'll take any excuse I can to use that smilie.
                      Oh god. SGA's last two seasons felt like they were finally trying to give us 'character relationships' but either not doing enough (in the case of Shep, Ronon) or too much (McKay, Keller). I actually think Teyla's story was the most believable but they alienated alot of "Sheyla" shippers with that. I recall hearing on the commentary that there was talk of making Teyla and Shep a confirmed ship, but Joe Mallozi "Put his foot down" and said no. There's been alot of talk about Joe M and Joe F's animosity due to Joe F's raw Alpha so i just get sad when i think of what could have happened.

                      It wasn't until the pet (McKay) needed a warm bosom to sidle up to that TPTB finally decided to actually confirm a relationship (in a record of less than a season too!) Then it was ALL about them and the way they so wubbed each other! *puke*

                      The only good thing was that there were alot less constipated looks and librarian outfits! Hell did you SEE the dress Keller was wearing in Brainstorm!? It was like Sam's from "Road not Taken"!

                      Argh. *headdesk*

                      And just for you KK,



                      An SG team armed with swords!
                      Originally posted by Apostle's Message Redux
                      Shepard understood. Given the situation, he wasn't sure that exposing the planet to this kind of secret was smart. Miranda had regaled him with stories of how horrible 20th century Earth sounded in her history lessons and it made him leery. "I agree, god knows what would happen if Grunt got loose."

                      Joker snorted and muttered loudly. "Run! It's The Incredible Hulk! Kill it with fire!"
                      Read the story ---- Apostle's Message Redux, ME/SG Crossover

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                        Originally posted by Ashizuri View Post
                        Well, the couple times they talk it's clown!Jack so I can easily see how you might not recall it.
                        (It's not the greatest film [needed more Alt!Jack and Daniel/Sam/Teal'c], but it's what finally cemented my Mitchell fangirlishness so I had to get it it.)
                        Yes. Alt!Jack pointed up all the things I disliked about clown!Jack. I actually saw "my" Jack in Alt!Jack and I think I squeed quite a lot.

                        Originally posted by Khentkawes View Post
                        And on the subject of Continuum... I didn't think it was bad. I actually rather enjoyed it as a fun, mostly pointless romp. I could have done with less dialogue for the real Jack (liked the alt!Jack better, although I was perfectly fine with only seeing him for the few scenes he had... anymore would have felt unnecessary to me). I actually really enjoyed the way Cameron, Sam, Daniel, and Teal'c all worked together. So yeah, it was enjoyable despite the overused time travel reset (which, at least made sense this time around, unlike Moebius where the time travel was so convoluted that it wasn't even worth trying to follow). There was only one part that felt like it was trying to be shippy to me, and that was when Mitchell put his hand on Sam's shoulder and gave her the little pep talk thing when they ended up in Antarctica and Sam was all upset over Jack's "death." But I can handle it because Cam was awesome at that moment. He was focused, compassionate, and making sure his team worked as a team to handle the crisis at hand. Which always makes me happy. Yeah, completely unashamed Cameron lover here.

                        and I'll take any excuse I can to use that smilie.
                        There were a lot of things I liked about Continuum. I loved seeing "our" team struggling the come to terms with life in the AU. But there wasn't enough of it! If I replay sections of the movie, it's those parts; the split-screen interviews; Daniel talking to himself! Cam visiting the farm. It irked me that all they allowed Sam to do was shop. and even then they had throw in an attempt at ship!! Says a lot about how some writers view her character, I'm sad to say.

                        The scene after our Jack dies, the one with Sam and Cam, is obviously designed to be shippy but I can easily handwave that, thanks to chanting my "She'd be upset over any member of the team dying" (which has got me through a lot of shippy guff in the past, just substitute "dying" for "missing" "injured" etc etc). Interestingly, Daniel wasn't shown as being upset at all. He obviously didn't give a monkey's about the death of the closest thing to a best friend. But then, if they'd shown that, it would have diluted Sam's grief, so ... (reason 1,687 to be irked currently by the ship).

                        The awesomeness that was Cam cannot be overstated. My Cam love came gradually over the two seasons and movies but boy it's there in full-effect now.

                        OT: Yay Firefly ... double yay with bonus cherries on top for Supernatural. I've loved it since the first ep, although, oddly for me, not in a fannish sense. I just love the brotherly dynamic so much.

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                          Originally posted by Aragon101 View Post
                          I recall hearing on the commentary that there was talk of making Teyla and Shep a confirmed ship, but Joe Mallozi "Put his foot down" and said no.
                          Actually, from what I heard (can't hardly stand to listen to commentaries myself) it was Paul Mullie who killed it. And it wasn't so much killing the ship itself, but killing the idea of making Sheppard the father of Teyla's baby (which personally - I'm extremely thankful for).
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                            Originally posted by Killdeer View Post
                            Actually, from what I heard (can't hardly stand to listen to commentaries myself) it was Paul Mullie who killed it. And it wasn't so much killing the ship itself, but killing the idea of making Sheppard the father of Teyla's baby (which personally - I'm extremely thankful for).
                            Hmmm i'll have to dust off the Atlantis DVDs just to be sure because i'm 99% positive the commentary said "Joe Mallozzi put his foot down and ssid no."

                            I'll report back once i know for a fact
                            Originally posted by Apostle's Message Redux
                            Shepard understood. Given the situation, he wasn't sure that exposing the planet to this kind of secret was smart. Miranda had regaled him with stories of how horrible 20th century Earth sounded in her history lessons and it made him leery. "I agree, god knows what would happen if Grunt got loose."

                            Joker snorted and muttered loudly. "Run! It's The Incredible Hulk! Kill it with fire!"
                            Read the story ---- Apostle's Message Redux, ME/SG Crossover

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by Khentkawes View Post
                              I can see that TPTB should respect the fans and even listen to them in certain situations... but with Stargate they took it way too far.
                              By the end I was thinking "spend more time writing and less time checking the forums!"



                              I think I found MacGyver's personality more attractive than Jack's. Which is not to say that I don't like Jack as a character, because I do. Heck, for a long time he was my second favorite character in all of Stargate. But I found his sense of humor wearing on me the longer the series went on.
                              True, if Mac and Jack were real, I'd never go for Jack. I'd either be annoyed or crushed by the sarcasm a lot of the time. But from a purely physical perspective, I thought RDA got handsomer.

                              And on the subject of Continuum... I didn't think it was bad. I actually rather enjoyed it as a fun, mostly pointless romp.
                              Yes, but I can always find things I wish had been done more, better, differently...

                              There was only one part that felt like it was trying to be shippy to me, and that was when Mitchell put his hand on Sam's shoulder and gave her the little pep talk thing when they ended up in Antarctica and Sam was all upset over Jack's "death." But I can handle it because Cam was awesome at that moment. He was focused, compassionate, and making sure his team worked as a team to handle the crisis at hand. Which always makes me happy. Yeah, completely unashamed Cameron lover here.
                              Yes, Cam was good in that scene. And I thought Sam's shock was well played. Whether you're a shipper or not seeing one of SG1 die before your eyes is going to affect you.
                              Last edited by jckfan55; 16 July 2010, 09:20 AM. Reason: fix dang quote

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                                Originally posted by Aragon101 View Post
                                Oh god. SGA's last two seasons felt like they were finally trying to give us 'character relationships' but either not doing enough (in the case of Shep, Ronon) or too much (McKay, Keller). I actually think Teyla's story was the most believable but they alienated alot of "Sheyla" shippers with that. I recall hearing on the commentary that there was talk of making Teyla and Shep a confirmed ship, but Joe Mallozi "Put his foot down" and said no. There's been alot of talk about Joe M and Joe F's animosity due to Joe F's raw Alpha so i just get sad when i think of what could have happened.

                                It wasn't until the pet (McKay) needed a warm bosom to sidle up to that TPTB finally decided to actually confirm a relationship (in a record of less than a season too!) Then it was ALL about them and the way they so wubbed each other! *puke*

                                The only good thing was that there were alot less constipated looks and librarian outfits! Hell did you SEE the dress Keller was wearing in Brainstorm!? It was like Sam's from "Road not Taken"!

                                Argh. *headdesk*

                                And just for you KK,



                                An SG team armed with swords!
                                Can't green ya, but I'm sooo with you.

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