Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[BlueMushroom]

Or think back to D&C (if you dare). They're dealing with a major treaty with the Tok'ra, the first real alliance between the SGC and an alien culture (which ultimately fails, but they didn't know that at the time). It could be a major turning point for the SGC. And at the same time, there's a goa'uld that somehow managed to brainwash an ally into becoming a killer. This is something we should deal with. This should make a really interesting story that will impact the future of the SGC. But instead, the climax of the episode focuses on the big revelation that Sam and Jack have "feelings" for each other. It just seems like someone forgot that there were bigger issues at stake. And when the writers deal with those bigger issues, they do so wonderfully. They just seem to lose their focus sometimes.

I don't watch that episode - despite the fact that I ship Anise/Freya/Jack. The way they are handling just everything in this episode makes me shudder. As you say, the focus should have been on the alliance with the Tok'ra (which shouldn't have failed, IMHO...) as it was very important to Earth at that time.

I also never understood how we are supposed to think that Sam would be able to not link revealing her feelings to Jack and the killing of someone (Martouf/Lantash) who despite her confusion from Jolinar must have been at least a close friend, if not more. (No, for the record, I don't ship Sam with Martouf, but I can see they have way more chemistry than she has with Jack...)

[Frostfox]

I don't watch that episode - despite the fact that I ship Anise/Freya/Jack. The way they are handling just everything in this episode makes me shudder. As you say, the focus should have been on the alliance with the Tok'ra (which shouldn't have failed, IMHO...) as it was very important to Earth at that time.

I also never understood how we are supposed to think that Sam would be able to not link revealing her feelings to Jack and the killing of someone (Martouf/Lantash) who despite her confusion from Jolinar must have been at least a close friend, if not more. (No, for the record, I don't ship Sam with Martouf, but I can see they have way more chemistry than she has with Jack...)

It's a flawed episode, beyond the S/J histrionics, the Tok'ra were under utilised on the show and Sam's interesting connection with Martouf was wasted too.

FF

[flynn1959]

It's a flawed episode, beyond the S/J histrionics, the Tok'ra were under utilised on the show and Sam's interesting connection with Martouf was wasted too.
FF

The potential for that particular relationship was huge, imo.

[Frostfox]

The potential for that particular relationship was huge, imo.

And at least it had an SF element; different host, same symbiote.
DS9 managed several thought provoking stories about the Trill on such themes as old lovers in new bodies and the etiquette and taboos involved.
At least Martouf didn't look like he'd swallowed a wasp every time Sam was alone with him.

FF

[flynn1959]

And at least it had an SF element; different host, same symbiote.
DS9 managed several thought provoking stories about the Trill on such themes as old lovers in new bodies and the etiquette and taboos involved.
At least Martouf didn't look like he'd swallowed a wasp every time Sam was alone with him.

FF

I read a ff a long time ago that centred on the conflicted emotions being together brought up for Sam and Martouf, it was really good. I will have to see if I can find it again.

Tptb killed a golden opportunity when they offed Martouf. JR is an amazing actor and imo he played his scenes with Sam just right.

[jckfan55]

It's a flawed episode, beyond the S/J histrionics, the Tok'ra were under utilised on the show and Sam's interesting connection with Martouf was wasted too.

FF

And so began killing off perfectly good characters for "dramatic effect." Except I think it took them a season to revisit the effect on Sam...
and then they did a bad job with it imho in the multiple SG1s episode

[SamShipper]

I read a ff a long time ago that centred on the conflicted emotions being together brought up for Sam and Martouf, it was really good. I will have to see if I can find it again.

Tptb killed a golden opportunity when they offed Martouf. JR is an amazing actor and imo he played his scenes with Sam just right.

I agree totally. The potential in the relationship between Sam and Martouf/Lantash was huge - more interesting possibilities than any other relationship in SG, imho. And I agree that Jr is a very talented actor and played the scenes with Sam perfectly. I also think it would have been very interesting to have Jolinar live - I would have loved to see one of the Sam's in Ripple Effect have Jolinar, for instance. Could have been a very interesting story.

The whole idea with all her left over emotions from Jolinar has lots of potential as does the idea with two people in the same body in general - I never understood why they didn't leap at both this relationship and at more stories with the Tok'ra. If I could write I would think it a well of stories in it.
Yes - I loved the stories with the Trill in DS9 that Frostfox mentions

flynn, if you find that story you mention, I would like to read it.

[Frostfox]

I agree totally. The potential in the relationship between Sam and Martouf/Lantash was huge - more interesting possibilities than any other relationship in SG, imho. And I agree that Jr is a very talented actor and played the scenes with Sam perfectly. I also think it would have been very interesting to have Jolinar live - I would have loved to see one of the Sam's in Ripple Effect have Jolinar, for instance. Could have been a very interesting story.

The whole idea with all her left over emotions from Jolinar has lots of potential as does the idea with two people in the same body in general - I never understood why they didn't leap at both this relationship and at more stories with the Tok'ra. If I could write I would think it a well of stories in it.
Yes - I loved the stories with the Trill in DS9 that Frostfox mentions

flynn, if you find that story you mention, I would like to read it.

I'm not, as you know, big on romance on TV (real life, oh yeah! but I don't need to play out my romantic fantasies vicariously through a TV show) but think how they could have used a relationship between Sam and Martouf.
The poignancy of the lost host, a truly long distance relationship which wouldn't have needed to dominate over other plot lines but would have tied Sam into the Tok'ra beyond her relationship with her father, perhaps bringing her into conflict with Jacob? Or helping her to further understand him and his symbiote.
Instead they saddle SG1 with the oldest, dullest cliché in the book. And they can't even do that properly. They shoehorn the relationship in episodes where it breaks the flow, they diminish the Team which made SG1 so special, they can't even get their lead actor to play into it, which leaves poor Amanda acting against a brick wall and Sam looking like a besotted school girl. Disaster from start to finish. What a waste.

FF

[jckfan55]

^contrast the open, joyful expression on Sam's face whenever Martouf comes to town with the S/J moments...

[Killdeer]

Instead they saddle SG1 with the oldest, dullest cliché in the book.

I know it's my own issues with power inequalities in relationships, but....I don't even remotely get the attraction of the idea of the team leader being in love with his female team member. *shakes head* And they were so facinated by this idea that they tried to replicate it in Atlantis with Sheppard and Teyla (only in that case it never went anywhere because they didn't want to write for Teyla).

And I Just. Don't. Get. It. Why is that particular type of pairing considered sexy or romantic? It doesn't even seem slightly so to me. To me, it just seems creepy. I guess because the idea of being romantically attracted to someone I called "Sir" all the time makes me somewhat ill.

As far as Martouf goes, I enjoyed that character a lot, and there was a lot of potential there in Sam's connection with him and even on a nonromantic level her skills and memories inherited from Jolinar. But I always felt they threw all of that out to focus on the S/J stuff. By the end of the series, Sam's abilities from Jolinar were virtually nonexistant, and I've always thought that was a huge shame.

[Frostfox]

I know it's my own issues with power inequalities in relationships, but....I don't even remotely get the attraction of the idea of the team leader being in love with his female team member. *shakes head* And they were so facinated by this idea that they tried to replicate it in Atlantis with Sheppard and Teyla (only in that case it never went anywhere because they didn't want to write for Teyla).

And I Just. Don't. Get. It. Why is that particular type of pairing considered sexy or romantic? It doesn't even seem slightly so to me. To me, it just seems creepy. I guess because the idea of being romantically attracted to someone I called "Sir" all the time makes me somewhat ill.

I can see the attraction, if one is in a BDSM relationship, such roleplay can be a lot of fun, but Sam and Jack is vanilla beyond the pale. And a genuine boss/second in command relationship is a totally different issue, not roleplay, fraught with real issues. You could write a real, dramatic show about that. But it wouldn't be SG1.

As far as Martouf goes, I enjoyed that character a lot, and there was a lot of potential there in Sam's connection with him and even on a nonromantic level her skills and memories inherited from Jolinar. But I always felt they threw all of that out to focus on the S/J stuff. By the end of the series, Sam's abilities from Jolinar were virtually nonexistant, and I've always thought that was a huge shame.

All sorts of interesting plot lines/characters/relationships were thrown out in favour of S/J. And it still failed to be convincing or palatable. I think the person I feel most sorry for is Amanda, who gave her all for the show but who's considerable acting talents were squandered in favour of a relationship which JUST DIDN'T WORK! And then RDA left and there was nothing left for her character but being exposition girl or wallpaper.

Sad.

FF

[suse]

The lack of subtlety was like a 2x4 across the back of the head.

He. Cares. For. Her. More. Than. He's. Supposed. To.
Just in case we didn't get the memo.
Yes, we get it. He cares for her more than he cares for Daniel.
He cares for her more than he cares for Teal'c.
He cares for her more than anyone else on this planet or any other.
Sam is the most important person in Jack's universe and visa versa. It is beautiful and sparkly and pink unicorns gad about and angels play their harps every time her earnest cerulean orbs gaze into the devoted chocolate depths of his eyes...
Congratulations, TPTB, no one has ever thought of such an original and ground breaking plot for a TV series before or since. We are just so impressed with your talent.
Wake me up when Stargate SG1 starts again.

I never thought he cared for her more than Daniel or Teal'c. Perhaps a bit different *if* you want to see it that way, but not more. Do you really think he'd have left Daniel or Teal'c behind? The only reason he left Daniel behind in S1 was because he still had a mission to complete. Not the case here. He cares about them all way more than is 'proper' for a CO to care about those under his command. It's what SG-1 is.

Yeah, it gets muddy because she's a woman and the only one who's career that can be ruined by any sense of impropriety. That's just the way it is.

<<shrug>> I guess to me, unacted on feelings does not equal ship.

I enjoy the team. Both Sam and Jack are part of the team. Not *every* interaction is ship. Yes, some are obvious attempts by TPTB, but really, even married couples need to relate to each other as people, not as sexual beings 24/7. ( Not that I'm even *remotely* suggesting marriage or a ship.)

suse

[Khentkawes]

At least Martouf didn't look like he'd swallowed a wasp every time Sam was alone with him.

hehe. *giggle*

I know it's my own issues with power inequalities in relationships, but....I don't even remotely get the attraction of the idea of the team leader being in love with his female team member. *shakes head* And they were so facinated by this idea that they tried to replicate it in Atlantis with Sheppard and Teyla (only in that case it never went anywhere because they didn't want to write for Teyla).

And I Just. Don't. Get. It. Why is that particular type of pairing considered sexy or romantic? It doesn't even seem slightly so to me. To me, it just seems creepy. I guess because the idea of being romantically attracted to someone I called "Sir" all the time makes me somewhat ill.

I think part of the reason it's creepy (at least for me) is because it's out of proper context. It reminds me of the time when one of my college (!) classmates accused me of having a crush on our professor. And I was so shocked I couldn't even respond. I just looked at her like she'd grown another head. Because honestly, it had never occurred to me. When I was in class, I was thinking about my education, not romantic liaisons. It simply wasn't the proper context to be thinking about romantic relationships. And the thought of it seemed creepy.

There are only certain contexts and situations in which romantic relationships are appropriate, and the workplace (or college classroom) is not one of them. At least, that's my personal belief on the subject. Maybe I compartmentalize my life more than most people, I don't know. *shrug*

I never thought he cared for her more than Daniel or Teal'c. Perhaps a bit different *if* you want to see it that way, but not more. Do you really think he'd have left Daniel or Teal'c behind? The only reason he left Daniel behind in S1 was because he still had a mission to complete. Not the case here. He cares about them all way more than is 'proper' for a CO to care about those under his command. It's what SG-1 is.

I don't think that Jack would have left Daniel or Teal'c behind either. And I agree with you that Jack cares about all three of them more than is "proper" for a normal CO. But the problem is, if that's the message that TPTB were trying to get across, then they wouldn't have made the entire incident all about Sam and Jack.
And if TPTB did want us to think that he he cared about them all equally, than why was that scene written? What purpose did it serve?

As far as I can tell, the only reason to write that scene is to single out Sam and focus on how Jack's feelings for her are "different" or "more" than his feelings for everyone else. From a pure writing standpoint, they were careful to differentiate Sam from the rest of the team.

So, while in my world Jack cares about his entire team equally, the world of TPTB paints a different picture. I can try to ignore it, but I can't deny the intent behind it (as much as I'd like to).

[Frostfox]

I never thought he cared for her more than Daniel or Teal'c. Perhaps a bit different *if* you want to see it that way, but not more. Do you really think he'd have left Daniel or Teal'c behind? The only reason he left Daniel behind in S1 was because he still had a mission to complete. Not the case here. He cares about them all way more than is 'proper' for a CO to care about those under his command. It's what SG-1 is.

Yeah, it gets muddy because she's a woman and the only one who's career that can be ruined by any sense of impropriety. That's just the way it is.

<<shrug>> I guess to me, unacted on feelings does not equal ship.

I enjoy the team. Both Sam and Jack are part of the team. Not *every* interaction is ship. Yes, some are obvious attempts by TPTB, but really, even married couples need to relate to each other as people, not as sexual beings 24/7. ( Not that I'm even *remotely* suggesting marriage or a ship.)

suse

It comes down to TPTB and how they shoot a scene. When we are watching a TV show (I'm sure you know all this ) there is a language which goes beyond the script. Any one growing up in the UK and USA pretty much share the same TV language, there are subliminal clues given, often with the score, which telegraph the emotional focus of a scene. A lot of the S/J stuff I find objectionable is not down to the script, it is how TPTB intend us to perceive the emotional context behind the script; lighting, blocking, score.

There are many ways you could play the scene where Jack comes to Sam's lab in Evolution. TPTB chose to go for soft focus lighting, extreme close up and if memory serves, music cues too to put emphasis on what they want us to take from the scene.

This is not the usual way they shoot Amanda when Sam is working in the lab.

This is the sort of thing we object to; when they lay their subtext on so thick, it's deeper than the vaseline on the lens in this shot.

I think part of the reason it's creepy (at least for me) is because it's out of proper context. It reminds me of the time when one of my college (!) classmates accused me of having a crush on our professor. And I was so shocked I couldn't even respond. I just looked at her like she'd grown another head. Because honestly, it had never occurred to me. When I was in class, I was thinking about my education, not romantic liaisons. It simply wasn't the proper context to be thinking about romantic relationships. And the thought of it seemed creepy.

There are only certain contexts and situations in which romantic relationships are appropriate, and the workplace (or college classroom) is not one of them. At least, that's my personal belief on the subject. Maybe I compartmentalize my life more than most people, I don't know. *shrug*

I don't compartmentalize that well but I've never entered into a workplace romance, even if I might have felt an attraction to a co-worker. It just isn't a healthy environment for a relationship, but of course, despite what the fluffier end of the media seem determined to display, adults make conscious choices when it comes to the suitability of a relationship. Yes, people 'fall in love' with the wrong person all the time. Some choose to act on it, leading to adultery, or in this case, breaking their oaths as USAF officers. Of course, the majority of us spot the signs that we might be having inappropriate feelings and do something about it, removing ours selves from the temptation. It's what makes us mature adults, rather than school children with a crush. It's not absolute, sometimes emotions creep up unseen, but I would expect decorated members of the forces to deal with it in a mature and respectful manner, not to act like teenagers.

I don't think that Jack would have left Daniel or Teal'c behind either. And I agree with you that Jack cares about all three of them more than is "proper" for a normal CO. But the problem is, if that's the message that TPTB were trying to get across, then they wouldn't have made the entire incident all about Sam and Jack.
And if TPTB did want us to think that he he cared about them all equally, than why was that scene written? What purpose did it serve?

As far as I can tell, the only reason to write that scene is to single out Sam and focus on how Jack's feelings for her are "different" or "more" than his feelings for everyone else. From a pure writing standpoint, they were careful to differentiate Sam from the rest of the team.

So, while in my world Jack cares about his entire team equally, the world of TPTB paints a different picture. I can try to ignore it, but I can't deny the intent behind it (as much as I'd like to).

TPTB agenda is writ clear in the show; Jack cares for his team more than he should but he cares for Sam more because, you know, romantic love* is the most noble of all emotions, more than camaraderie, more than friendship, more than common sense, logic or good writing and believable characterisation.

*insert pink fluffy unicorns and writing 'Sam/Jack 4 evah' on your school books here.

FF

[flynn1959]

[QUOTE=SamShipper;10381771]I agree totally. The potential in the relationship between Sam and Martouf/Lantash was huge - more interesting possibilities than any other relationship in SG, imho. And I agree that Jr is a very talented actor and played the scenes with Sam perfectly. I also think it would have been very interesting to have Jolinar live - I would have loved to see one of the Sam's in Ripple Effect have Jolinar, for instance. Could have been a very interesting story.

The whole idea with all her left over emotions from Jolinar has lots of potential as does the idea with two people in the same body in general - I never understood why they didn't leap at both this relationship and at more stories with the Tok'ra. If I could write I would think it a well of stories in it.
Yes - I loved the stories with the Trill in DS9 that Frostfox mentions

flynn, if you find that story you mention, I would like to read it.[/QUOTE]






Stargate is full of lost potentials.IMO.

Samshipper -If I find that fic again I will be sure to send it to you.