Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[Frostfox]

Ugh!!..thanks for bringing back that memory...*shudders*.....


Watched Sam and her Dad "blow up a sun" today....*sighs*....those are the moments I treasure in SG1....working scientifically to solve a problem and not a single doe-eyed soppy glance at Jack once....


Deeds xx

Loved that. And the follow up (you blow up one sun...). Kick ass Sam, well, kicked ass. And Amanda has to take credit, as well as the writers. Shame she was waging a losing battle against the tide of mush drowning the character.

FF

[jdjunkie]

As I just said, it's one thing to write a complex and interesting subplot on the subject, quite another to reduce it to a soap plot of Sam's love life and whether she will go with the fiance or the boss.

FF

Ah, Pete. I do wonder what they were thinking of.

If the purpose of the relationship was to show us Sam dumping him because she loved Jack and would get together with him, it didn't really work, did it? Because, the writers never, canonically, got Jack and Sam together.

There were anvil-like hints (nothing about this ship is ever subtle ) including the deleted scene in Trio which, as ever, was ridiculously ambiguous and vague. My interpretation is that it only reinforced that they weren't together. Didn't Sam say something like "he's going to retire soon so maybe ..." or something? (only seen it once; doesn't merit re-watching). So, no relationship at that point. And the scene was supposedly deleted for time? Yeah. Okay. If they'd wanted it in, it would have been in. They just didn't seem to want to go there by that point.

I suppose, looking at it in the round, the hints mean that anyone who roots for the couple can believe they're together (and that's fine; go for it) and those who want to believe otherwise can. That's quite a balancing act.

[Frostfox]

So true all of you.
In addition, I think this pining for Jack thing they inflicted on us increasingly, took away from the whole team as family, deep caring, been through hell together dynamic.

And then the dreck with D/S.
It really seemed to get worse once the original writers/producers left and the boys took over.

I have no problem with Jack occasionally recognizing that Sam is attractive and vice versa, but really they have nothing in common other than the team. They never made a believable match to me and I doubt they would have even with good writing.
And when Sam looks amused at Jack's antics in later years (and don't get me started on the dumbifying of Jack) i never buy it. I think she'd actually be annoyed.

Team as family trumps all for me. And when SG1 was on the air, it was an unusual dynamic, it comes and goes out of fashion in the television industry and it's important. There's more to love than 'boy meets girl' but TV deals with simple ideas and comrade love, team love is too complex much of the time.

Ah, Pete. I do wonder what they were thinking of.

If the purpose of the relationship was to show us Sam dumping him because she loved Jack and would get together with him, it didn't really work, did it? Because, the writers never, canonically, got Jack and Sam together.

There were anvil-like hints (nothing about this ship is ever subtle ) including the deleted scene in Trio which, as ever, was ridiculously ambiguous and vague. My interpretation is that it only reinforced that they weren't together. Didn't Sam say something like "he's going to retire soon so maybe ..." or something? (only seen it once; doesn't merit re-watching). So, no relationship at that point. And the scene was supposedly deleted for time? Yeah. Okay. If they'd wanted it in, it would have been in. They just didn't seem to want to go there by that point.

I suppose, looking at it in the round, the hints mean that anyone who roots for the couple can believe they're together (and that's fine; go for it) and those who want to believe otherwise can. That's quite a balancing act.

As I said, I came via Trek fandom, where canon is king and a deleted scene is a deleted scene. It's not, and can never be canon. Ditto books, audio books, comics and the like. Canon is what was broadcast on TV. Everything else is not.

They were never constant in what they were doing with the relationship, they ran it hot and cold, it vanished for months at a time then there would be a heavy handed dollop of over blown emotion again, disrupting the storytelling and distorting the characters. A relationship between two principal characters should have been plotted, planned, used by all the writers, not just those who had it as a pet project, worked on by the actors. Integral. Not an optional extra.
Which is why it failed to engage.
I rooted for Odo and Kira, Delenn and Sinclair, Mal and Inara, Zoe and Wash, Crichton and Aeryn - and that's despite slashing other characters in those fandoms. Why? Because the romantic relationships were part of the shows, not bolted on, by the numbers, they added to our understanding of the characters, rather than detracting. Good writers make good stories.

FF

[jdjunkie]

They were never constant in what they were doing with the relationship, they ran it hot and cold, it vanished for months at a time then there would be a heavy handed dollop of over blown emotion again, disrupting the storytelling and distorting the characters. A relationship between two principal characters should have been plotted, planned, used by all the writers, not just those who had it as a pet project, worked on by the actors. Integral. Not an optional extra.
Which is why it failed to engage.
I rooted for Odo and Kira, Delenn and Sinclair, Mal and Inara, Zoe and Wash, Crichton and Aeryn - and that's despite slashing other characters in those fandoms. Why? Because the romantic relationships were part of the shows, not bolted on, by the numbers, they added to our understanding of the characters, rather than detracting. Good writers make good stories.

FF

With Jack/Sam it seemed to be a storyline they picked up and dropped on a whim. It was never an arc. An arc is planned, has beats, has a resolution. It doesn't feel as if they ever had a true plan, and, if they did, they didn't have the cojones to carry it out. Certainly, the pairing split the audience. We'll never know for sure how many were pro and how many anti. Polls (which can never really be trusted) usually came out 50-50 back in the day.

Whatever the reason, Jack/Sam was never fully realised, unlike the fantastic Zoe/Wash and Crichton/Aeryn. As you rightly say, it's all in the writing, and the writing for Jack/Sam was woeful. It never got beyond "Sir, I just wanted to say" and "I know."

[Frostfox]

With Jack/Sam it seemed to be a storyline they picked up and dropped on a whim. It was never an arc. An arc is planned, has beats, has a resolution. It doesn't feel as if they ever had a true plan, and, if they did, they didn't have the cojones to carry it out. Certainly, the pairing split the audience. We'll never know for sure how many were pro and how many anti. Polls (which can never really be trusted) usually came out 50-50 back in the day.

Whatever the reason, Jack/Sam was never fully realised, unlike the fantastic Zoe/Wash and Crichton/Aeryn. As you rightly say, it's all in the writing, and the writing for Jack/Sam was woeful. It never got beyond "Sir, I just wanted to say" and "I know."

SG1 wasn't that big on plot arcs anyway, they were coming into fashion for TV shows when it aired, (thanks to B5 and DS9) while they had some continuing plot lines, they didn't really make the most of arcs. Their loss, they are now pretty standard across genre TV, because fans love them.

But if you are going to pair up two of your principle characters, aren't you going to make sure you do it properly? Wouldn't you plan it out, make it integral to the story? Don't your characters deserve that? Your actors too? I'm not much interested in relationship in shows, that's not what I watch for, but I can be drawn in if it's well done, if it adds to the show.

And if you do it, for god's sake make it interesting! If you are boring 50% of your audience, you aren't doing it right. Follow it through. Make it real. They never have a single grown up conversation about the relationship in ten years! Not one. They never even exchange a sentence about it. How can a relationship exist if neither party has ever spoken to the other about it? And if, for the sake of argument, as a plot point you are not going to have them speak about it, you have to fill in the gaps with constant and credible character building, we never saw that either.
They didn't speak about it, not because it was a plot point not to, but because there were too many writers with differing agendas, no show bible for them to follow which would lay out exactly where in the relationship arc they were, it's not that difficult! Loads of shows do it.

The S/J relationship goes like this - beginning, middle, ignore, ignore, bit more middle, constipated look from one of your main actors, ignore, ignore, sudden huge relationship drama in the middle of all the action, ignore, ignore, token alternate universe, ignore, fizzle out...

I'm very glad I wasn't a fan of the pairing, I'd have been so disappointed.

FF

[discodiva]

If I had my choice I'd keep as much of my Science fiction free from any romance storyline as I could, but especially from the core ensemble cast....I'm watching some very very old Dr Who re-runs...thank god Tom Baker never had to make soppy love eyes at Louise Jamieson!!


I did get a bit testy when the whole Rose/Dr thing started up as well......



Let's keep it to exploring the galaxy as a cohesive and committed team...


And yeah, I say the same about the enforced and forced Daniel/Vala carp too...


Deeds xx

[Frostfox]

Dr Who was all the richer for the lack of romance, the character was strong enough not to need it. It's the one aspect of NuWho I am least happy with. And they throw every Companion at him, it seems now.

Edit to add: Of course, the audacity of showing Jack kissing The Doctor thrilled me; if only for the BBC's confidence in RTD and in the maturity of its audience.

FF

[jdjunkie]

But if you are going to pair up two of your principle characters, aren't you going to make sure you do it properly? Wouldn't you plan it out, make it integral to the story? Don't your characters deserve that? Your actors too? ....

And if you do it, for god's sake make it interesting! If you are boring 50% of your audience, you aren't doing it right. Follow it through. Make it real. They never have a single grown up conversation about the relationship in ten years! Not one. They never even exchange a sentence about it. How can a relationship exist if neither party has ever spoken to the other about it?

The S/J relationship goes like this - beginning, middle, ignore, ignore, bit more middle, constipated look from one of your main actors, ignore, ignore, sudden huge relationship drama in the middle of all the action, ignore, ignore, token alternate universe, ignore, fizzle out... FF

Bolding is mine.

I think that's my biggest gripe, to be honest. Are we really to believe that two adult, intelligent human beings never found a way to talk about their feelings, even given the regs etc? The way they were written they both came across as emotionally stunted. And I'm damned sure they weren't. Jack had a happy marriage until tragedy struck; Sam managed an entirely adult relationship with Pete.

So I think that, in your excellent final summation, you missed out "ridiculous, half-formed conversations". That would make it complete.

[poundpuppy29]

just wanted to add Heroes is probably the ep I decided to really dislike Jack he was so obnoxious.

I respectfully agree to disagree with all of you about Daniel & Vala I will leave it at that

Someone said that Jack and Sam had nothing in common I agree 100% and one thing I also read is that they never talked about it agree both characters were kinda closed off especially Jack if there is no communication there is no relationship

[Frostfox]

just wanted to add Heroes is probably the ep I decided to really dislike Jack he was so obnoxious.

I respectfully agree to disagree with all of you about Daniel & Vala I will leave it at that

Someone said that Jack and Sam had nothing in common I agree 100% and one thing I also read is that they never talked about it agree both characters were kinda closed off especially Jack if there is no communication there is no relationship

It's fine to like Daniel/Vala, we're not the thought police, we're not going to make you feel like we do No one is going to lambast you or throw you out of the thread for liking them.
Quite a few of us are of the camp that thinks that shows don't need romances to work, so were just not interested in any romantic entanglements, S/J, V/D or any of them.

FF

[discodiva]

NOROMOS for the win!!


Oopsie ..I hope that's not viewed as an incitement to riot all over GW....


I just like my Sci Fi as Science Fiction-y as possible with the barest bones of romance...Daniel/Shau'ri I accept as it was one of the main building blocks to part of the film plot and obviously Jack and Sara were married at the beginning of the film and divorced by the time the series began.....happy to accept that...

What I don't want to accept is clumsy attempts by writers who really don't know what they're doing when it comes to "subtle romance" ruining a good storyline...


Deeds xx

[Frostfox]

just wanted to add Heroes is probably the ep I decided to really dislike Jack he was so obnoxious.

I respectfully agree to disagree with all of you about Daniel & Vala I will leave it at that

Someone said that Jack and Sam had nothing in common I agree 100% and one thing I also read is that they never talked about it agree both characters were kinda closed off especially Jack if there is no communication there is no relationship

It's fine to like Daniel/Vala, we're not the thought police, we're not going to make you feel like we do No one is going to lambast you or throw you out of the thread for liking them.
Quite a few of us are of the camp that thinks that shows don't need romances to work, so were just not interested in any romantic entanglements, S/J, V/D or any of them.

FF

[Frostfox]

NOROMOS for the win!!


Oopsie ..I hope that's not viewed as an incitement to riot all over GW....


I just like my Sci Fi as Science Fiction-y as possible with the barest bones of romance...Daniel/Shau'ri I accept as it was one of the main building blocks to part of the film plot and obviously Jack and Sara were married at the beginning of the film and divorced by the time the series began.....happy to accept that...

What I don't want to accept is clumsy attempts by writers who really don't know what they're doing when it comes to "subtle romance" ruining a good storyline...


Deeds xx

I'm quite aware that in the case of some shows, it's me, not them. I don't have an interest in romantic TV or films, they tend to be dull and formulaic, I like SF for the ideas, the hope, the vision of our place in the future. I get that human relationships are part of that, but melodrama isn't my cup of tea, and there is a huge gulf between a realistic relationship and the Sam/Jack histrionics.

FF

[poundpuppy29]

I do like to ship but not always there are exceptions I enjoyed the show Cold Case but I never shipped the 2 characters everyone shipped at all just enjoyed the stories same thing with Without a Trace.

Babylon 5 I loved Delenn but really didn't care about the ship but that was a subtle ship didn't take over the show well written ship if BW and RCC ever get another show be it sci fi or other they both need to watch B5 to know how to write ship to do it right and Farscape and Firefly just saying

Jack and Sam just didn't work they were too different but now we don't have to worry the tv franchise is dead from RE and DD getting Stargate back so we just have our memories

[poundpuppy29]

NOROMOS for the win!!


Oopsie ..I hope that's not viewed as an incitement to riot all over GW....


I just like my Sci Fi as Science Fiction-y as possible with the barest bones of romance...Daniel/Shau'ri I accept as it was one of the main building blocks to part of the film plot and obviously Jack and Sara were married at the beginning of the film and divorced by the time the series began.....happy to accept that...

What I don't want to accept is clumsy attempts by writers who really don't know what they're doing when it comes to "subtle romance" ruining a good storyline...


Deeds xx

lol when it done right it doesn't I love a good story too