Sam Carter/Amanda Tapping Discussion/Appreciation

[ann_sgcfan]

which she didn't do *on purpose*. she was trying very hard to have a normal life, getting mixed signals from jack, and being pushed too fast by pete. sam came to some realizations slowly, but she made them and tried her best. hurting anyone wasn't her intentions. she is human, just like the rest of us.

if sam's with jack 'now', does she impress you 'now'?



sally


ps - sillysally: just to make sure we understand each other, i'm not giving you permission to c/p this post to joe's blog. or any post. ever. none of my words or thoughts to any place, without my permission.

Yeah posting others people comments on other parts of forum or on Joe's blog is a HUGE NO NO. If someone wants to make a comment to Joe then they should do it on their own... Someone else should NOT be copying/ pasting various comments just because they feel like it!!!

[RealmOfX]

Or maybe you could provide a link to a website for the armed forces (or Air Force specifically) that outlines the fraternization regulations, so any of us who don't know the facts can read them (that is, if anyone wants to ... )

The regs are contained in Air Force Instruction 36-2909, Professional and Unprofessional Relationships see here for a PDF copy http://usmilitary.about.com/gi/dynam...AFI36-2909.pdf




And now on a completely different note :

for those of you reading JM's blog has there been any mention of Sam being written into some of the later season eps yet? I know they were going to try to and if they are going on hiatus now then they should have filled all their ep slots by now. (sorry for being lazy but my eyes have been objecting to reading too much and I've stopped reading his blog)

[majorsal]

it didn't need to take up a whole show, just bits and pieces that would lead up to sam introducing the guys to pete, wtihout all the sam and jack angst.

but i don't think they could take that out, because i really believe pete was brought in to a- give sam a chance at a real relationship, and b- bring sam and jack together (in their hearts and minds). the writers just needed to go about it in a better way. much better. muuuuuuuch better.




sally

[majorsal]

Hey EH-T. I found two more.

Sam Video Break:

What Have you Done Now?

and

All I Need

just so i don't have to check for myself (as in SEE) , are these sam/pete too?



sally

[tsaxlady]

The regs are contained in Air Force Instruction 36-2909, Professional and Unprofessional Relationships see here for a PDF copy http://usmilitary.about.com/gi/dynam...AFI36-2909.pdf




And now on a completely different note :

for those of you reading JM's blog has there been any mention of Sam being written into some of the later season eps yet? I know they were going to try to and if they are going on hiatus now then they should have filled all their ep slots by now. (sorry for being lazy but my eyes have been objecting to reading too much and I've stopped reading his blog)

There was talk a while back about Sam being in either episode 19 or 20. Maybe I'll dig up the exact blog post later.

[majorsal]

And now on a completely different note :

for those of you reading JM's blog has there been any mention of Sam being written into some of the later season eps yet? I know they were going to try to and if they are going on hiatus now then they should have filled all their ep slots by now. (sorry for being lazy but my eyes have been objecting to reading too much and I've stopped reading his blog)

There was talk a while back about Sam being in either episode 19 or 20. Maybe I'll dig up the exact blog post later.

i read joe's blog everyday, and while he's said he'd love to have sam/amanda on again (after the season openener), it'll depend on her schedule. when joe said they'd filled all the ep slots for the season, i asked him if he could tell us if sam was in any of the second half of the season eps. he didn't answer. that doesn't have to mean anything, though, because he usually doesn't answer most of the questions.

to suse and mandy; yes, i've been told.




sally

[Skydiver]

well, amanda is contracted to be in another episode. she was signed for 2 for season 5

[MerryK]

There's a "movie" definition???? Actually, I just used the english definitions found in dictionaries like
"offensive display of superiority or self-importance; overbearing pride"
and
"overbearing pride evidenced by a superior manner toward inferiors"

I have a question for the people on the thread - how many of you actually work in either a scientific or technical area where you are and/or deal with people with high IQ's and who often actively engage in discussions/arguments in order to resolve complex problems?

*raises my hand*

<clip>

MerryK I think our differing opinions stems from two areas
1 - what the definition of arrogance is
and
2 - a differing perspective of what scientists/techs do or should do to resolve complex problems in group situations, what you seem to perceive as arrogance I see as a natural part of the problem solving process.

Good post, RealmOfX! First of all, in an earlier post I explained "movie" flaws as flaws as interpreted by media—very obvious and constantly a problem. I was also going by a definition of arrogance that states: "having or revealing an exaggerated sense of one's importance or abilities". Unfortunately, Sam is exceptionally brilliant, so it's hard to argue what exaggerated would be...but even considering the examples we've seen, she can't do everything.

Also, I can completely understand arguing vs. arrogance, as I have long been involved with formal debate. However, as I have discovered, this only works when among peers, and if it remains on topic. I'm afraid I can't pull up a better example off the top of my head than 48 Hours, which doeesn't totally apply of course, but it's just something I've noticed through watching the series that Sam automatically assumes that she's right and often shows a bit of disdain towards others' ideas. And of course, the show usually has the others' ideas being proved stupid and Sam's being proved right, but I don't think that justifies her attitude. Opinions may differ, of course—I see more than just confidence.

i'd love to see examples of the highlighted part. and i agree, she's not all those other commanders; she's got her own style and power, even before she got to atlantis. to me at least.

sally

Every time she's been in charge, she fails to show a poker face—she makes it clear whenever a decision is difficult for her and so fails to come off as confident, which just encourages argument. Even on Atlantis, she occasionally has that pained look of making a difficult decision. Compare this to other good leaders, who clearly think carefully over each decision, but always show themselves as firm in their decision. Sam often comes across more wishy washy, though not totally so, of course. People follow best leaders who are firm without being aggressive, as shown by how people respond to Sam in the show. Again, I can't bring up a good solid example because it's in small doses over many many episodes, and may even be just an interpretation of some scenes.

[majorsal]

well, amanda is contracted to be in another episode. she was signed for 2 for season 5

wait, really

i don't think i knew that. i might have known it, but my memory... but i don't know if it didn't know that i didn't know it... but anyways, good news!

more sam in season 5!!



sally

[ames]

<snip>
I'm enjoying the whole discussion. Sam does have flaws but I also do not see her as arrogant. I agree with RealmofX that it is probably how we define the term. I view it as the dictionary definition previously provided and, based on that, do not see Sam as arrogant. That is definitely McKay though. I like Julia's word "passionate". While McKay spouts technobabble to show he is superior and was called on that by Ellis in SGA, I view Sam's technobabbling in a different way. I think she is actually very humble and sometimes forgets others can't follow her. She is so passionate about science that she starts off on an explanation and gets carried away.

We had a discussion in the Team Thread about Prodigy recently and I mentioned how Sam was not threatened by Hailey pointing out an error in the calculation on the white board nor by Hailey offering a different theory on why the bugs attacked. If she was arrogant, she would have dismissed Hailey as a mere cadet who knew nothing compared to her. Instead, she was excited by Hailey's brilliance and wanted to foster that.
<snip>

I think that is an excellent way to describe Sam - she is passionate about what she does. Passionate people do sometimes get carried away, especially when speaking with laypeople who aren't as familiar with the subject matter at hand, and can seem arrogant or over-bearing when really they're either excited (and more than likely skipping steps in the explanations) or a bit frustrated (b/c they have to slow down to try to explain what is coming easily/intuitively to them). I know I've been accused of being pretentious when I started going about one of my personal areas of geekdom - I get so wrapped up that I forget that not everyone else is quite as into the topic as I am, and I can totally see that happening to Sam. (In short, excellent observation, EH-T )

As for how Sam deals with Hailey, her behaviour truly is that of an excellent educator. There's a reason Sam is called in to work with the cadets, and why she makes (from the sounds of it anyway - I haven't quite gotten that far on SGA yet ) a great leader on Atlantis ... Sam is able to encourage others without shooting them down or becoming inexcessible herself as the 'only' or 'best' expert. She knows what she is talking about (usually ), and she is able to recognise when someone else has a good kernel with which to work and/or expand upon.

I would have LOVED to have seen pete be 'real' instead of a plot device. Because that's all he was used for in chimera, the dude that the girl was sleeping with that endangered the whole project.

he couldn't have been any more cliche had he tried

i wonder how things would have been had he just been a normal guy, a nice guy, that tried to deal with his girl friend's job adn the demands of it. i know i've said it before, but he would have been a wonderful way to explore the pressures put on folks that work at the sgc. how do you explain all the 'training accident' fatalities from an underground base in colorado? how about the sig other seeing a staff weapon injury? or dealing with a loved one that went MIA for days/weeks? or injuries from captivity? how do you get captured in the middle of America? or going to work in january and coming home with a tan

pete would have been parallel to 'the unit' in that th show's not just about the guys in the top secret stuff, but the wives of said guys, and how they deal with thier hubbies doing stuff they can never know about.

pete had such potential, but they took the easy and cliched way out, and sam came off worse for it.

I think it would be neat to have an SG version of 'Army Wives' -- something looking at the significant others/families of those who are involved in the project - how do those on the perifery get on when things go wrong? Or heck, even when things go right? I find it hard to believe that all members of active away teams were single and had no close immediate family of which to speak ... even nosy neighbours? Or as mentioned in the Pete discussion, what about the local law enforcement? We got a little bit of that element with Cassie, but then again, she was definitely a special case in that she not only knew, but was in a respect part of the program as well. Can anyone direct me in the direction of already existing fic along these lines, or should I add this burgeoning plot bunny to my 3 already on the go? B/c the more I think about it .... (then again, I've always been a bit of a soap opera fan at heart ) Hmmmmmm......

The image of Sam taking poor Pete home to meet The Boys is amusing me no end. I can see Jack telling him he has to have her back before midnight. Daniel glaring. And Teal'c looming.

FF

I just love that image FF Thank you for that!

[Skydiver]

I find it hard to believe that all members of active away teams were single and had no close immediate family of which to speak ... even nosy neighbours?

Look at Dave Dixon, father of four and leader of sg13

or wells, on his team, whose wife just had a baby

they're all far from single

and i'm not talking aobut a huge massive plot arc, just, well when there were eps that needed to be jack light in season 8, why not have one that's the minor characters? such as a misison from siler and harriman's pov? and then have the random bits and pieces about family members.

jsut an episode, or bits of them, that coujld explore the ramifications of family and the sgc

[jckfan55]

Every time she's been in charge, she fails to show a poker face—she makes it clear whenever a decision is difficult for her and so fails to come off as confident, which just encourages argument. Even on Atlantis, she occasionally has that pained look of making a difficult decision. Compare this to other good leaders, who clearly think carefully over each decision, but always show themselves as firm in their decision. Sam often comes across more wishy washy, though not totally so, of course. People follow best leaders who are firm without being aggressive, as shown by how people respond to Sam in the show. Again, I can't bring up a good solid example because it's in small doses over many many episodes, and may even be just an interpretation of some scenes.

I would agree that Sam doesn't always have a poker face, but I don't agree with her coming across wishy washy. I did have a slight problem on Atlantis

Spoiler:

when she confided in Shepard that it was a hard decision to send her people into danger, though she wouldn't have hesitated to go herself

the problem there, imho, was that the writers wanted the audience (particularly those who didn't know Sam?) to know that,(and imho the feeling was natural) but in order to get that across they had her tell a subordinate, whom she didn't know well. So I can see how it could be interpreted as looking bad for Sam. Of course who else was there to tell? No Teal'c or Daniel available. Dear Diary?

[tagger]

I have a hard time viewing Sam as arrogant. Arrogant has a very negative meaning.

ar·ro·gant / Pronunciation[ar-uh-guhnt]
–adjective 1. making claims or pretensions to superior importance or rights; overbearingly assuming; insolently proud: an arrogant public official.
2. characterized by or proceeding from arrogance: arrogant claims.

Thanks for the definition.

...< snipage> She wants life outside of work, something to help her escape the stress of saving the planet every other day. It wasn't fair to Pete how it ended, but he himself admited that he knew that things weren't right between them and that her heart wasn't fully into their relationship, and he could have ended it but he didn't he kept hoping that thing will work out, just like Sam did. And I believe she really loved Pete, otherwise she wouldn't have stayed with him as long as she did, the problem was that she didn't love him as much as she should have to make the "ever after" work. She tried but failed, and admited defeat in time before even more people were hurt.

This is just how I see it.

I feel like Pete pushed too hard and too fast... I mean who knows, this is a fictional character, so I can read whatever I want into their relationship backstory , but when Pete took her to the house he bought for them, she did not look happy. She wasn't expecting it.

Buying a house is a big step and he didn't seem to have discussed it with her. I think Sam is the type that wants to discuss big family decisions like that, yet he apparently did not know Sam well enough to talk to her about it, or, worse, he knew her wishes and ignored them.

(((ChopinGal)))

I miss CG...I do hope that she's ok. You know, there are a few Samandans I haven't seen in here in such a long time...like foreverSG1...Mini (who has popped in not so long ago but who's presence is sorely missed) and a few others but I can't think of names right now...where are you guys????

Agree.

I miss CG and others, but I am glad for everyone who is here!

There's a "movie" definition???? Actually, I just used the english definitions found in dictionaries like
"offensive display of superiority or self-importance; overbearing pride"
and
"overbearing pride evidenced by a superior manner toward inferiors"

I have a question for the people on the thread - how many of you actually work in either a scientific or technical area where you are and/or deal with people with high IQ's and who often actively engage in discussions/arguments in order to resolve complex problems?

*raises my hand*

Why I ask is because I think some people are confusing the natural process of arguing/thinking through a complex problem with two or more people and the "I'm right, you're wrong, nyah, nyah, nyah" stance of arrogance. Uggh, well that was as clear as mud!!

Arguing isn't arrogance, it's part of the process of breaking down the problem until a solution is found. As is listening to what the other person/people say and either confirming, questioning or countering their points. You always argue from the point of view that what you are saying is right otherwise the process simply doesn't work. But what you do do is constantly refine and modify what is put forward from everyone until a workable result is achieved. This process can be very loud and heated (which is why I think we were always assigned the sound proof meeting room the last time I worked at a large computing bureau).

Arrogance comes in when you dismiss or belittle other people like McKay does with his peers or when you don't modify your point when it is proven (the operative word being proven) false or faulty. The act of disagreeing or arguing or believing you are right in and of itself isn't arrogance.

Now I have seen Sam think she is right and I've seen her argue heatedly but I have never seen her give an "offensive display of superiority or self-importance; overbearing pride" or have an attitude of "overbearing pride evidenced by a superior manner toward inferiors". McKay, yes. Sam, no; not even in 48 Hours. I did see Sam display some juvenile jabs at McKay in that episode but not what is defined as arrogance in the dictionaries.

MerryK I think our differing opinions stems from two areas
1 - what the definition of arrogance is
and
2 - a differing perspective of what scientists/techs do or should do to resolve complex problems in group situations, what you seem to perceive as arrogance I see as a natural part of the problem solving process.

Wow, great post. And I totally agree.

I work in a science based field, with arrogant, brilliant peers (as well as brilliant, fun, goofy non-arrogant peers) and we "argue" all the time.
Guess who I like to debate issues with? Not the McKays' of the world!!

Great question on Sam and arrogance - and thank you to those who posted definitions.

I guess arrogance is a part of the following behavioral spectrum:

soiling yourself > under-confidence > confidence > over-confidence > arrogance > God complex.

I think Sam has been over-confident a couple times - Gemini and Red Sky come to mind, but she also had many more instances of working well with others, actually underestimating herself or blaming herself for problems she did not create (Solitudes). She accepted partial blame when she and Felger made the gate system ill with a virus, and blamed herself for the replicator problems created by the end of Gemini.

When McKay screwed up in Redemption, she didn't "dwell" on his screw up or rub it in, she moved on toward a solution.

Funny, what I actually like about Sam is that she is confident, but NOT arrogant, which I agree, can be a fine line. I actually felt she was a little under-confident initially, and has grown up a bit as a character, more at ease, less trying to prove herself.

I don't see Sam as perfect. She may have too many abilities to truly be proficient at them all - you know, Jack of all trades and master of none, but I think that is probably because of casting/ budgetary limitations.

[majorsal]

I would agree that Sam doesn't always have a poker face, but I don't agree with her coming across wishy washy. I did have a slight problem on Atlantis

Spoiler:

when she confided in Shepard that it was a hard decision to send her people into danger, though she wouldn't have hesitated to go herself

the problem there, imho, was that the writers wanted the audience (particularly those who didn't know Sam?) to know that,(and imho the feeling was natural) but in order to get that across they had her tell a subordinate, whom she didn't know well. So I can see how it could be interpreted as looking bad for Sam. Of course who else was there to tell? No Teal'c or Daniel available. Dear Diary?

i also think we fans are seeing the growth of sam as a leader, so we have to see the doubts and what-ifs as well as the confidence.



sally

[Skydiver]

there are also times, i think, when sam is the victim of the need to 'drama' the show.

the script says 'tight shot on sam's face as the music swells and fade to black'

it's a scene to illustrate 'oh fudge, are we in trouble, what will we do now'....and it can be seen as 'sam doesn't know what to do' when it's just a typical editing/writing technique