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**Mandysg1** · 10 September 2006, 02:04 PM

Originally posted by scarimor

Ah 'sokay, they're happy. And for my 2000th post, a brief update on the blue jelly saga:

5-year-old: "Why haven't we had blue jelly before, Mummy?"

Mummy: "Because we don't have blue jelly in this country. This blue jelly has come all the way from America."

7-year-old: "How come they have blue jelly and we don't?"

Mummy: "Because they know how to make it blue and we don't (apparently

)"

3-year-old: "They're clever in America. That's where Sam lives!"

7-year-old: "So does Homer Simpson."

Originally posted by scarimor

clench!

Wow scari, 2 great posts on one page, and 2000 posts

There's just no stopping this woman once she gets started

Congrats!

**KatG** · 10 September 2006, 03:10 PM

Originally posted by Deejay435

But I haven't seen any attacks on people who are happy with, or like Cam and Vala. Not in this thread. Not at all. Please, if I'm wrong-show me, and I'll gladly take it back. I think those that have negative opinions about Cam and Vala should be allowed to voice their opinions without being rebuked for them as well.

Doesn't kindness involve respecting other people the same way you want to be respected? People. Not fictional characters.

Originally posted by Agent_Dark

Oh yeah, thats a given. But its not really fun to hang around a place that is continually bagging your likes. I think that is more the issue here.

Originally posted by Deejay435

Is it a given? Because I sure wasn't getting that feeling.

I know it isn't fun to hang around a place where your likes are getting bagged. But there are much better ways to get that point across than what happened here. (I'm trying really hard here not to be rude, and point fingers, and say 'this and that' was a bad thing to say. I don't know if trying not to do that is a good thing, or a bad thing...but there you go.)

I guess for me it boils down to: Tell me my opinion is wrong, all you like. Tell me you think my opinion is stupid if you must.

But don't tell me I'm wrong for having it, or stating it. And that's what I think happened here.

Personally I was quite pleased to come in here and read people's views of MM and not see a bunch of "the episode sucked because Sam wasn't in it". So I was quite blindsided by the accusation that people were saying that.

Did I think the episode sucked? No. I thought it was more along the lines of "meh". I didn't expect to see a lot of Sam, not really, but I did expect to learn more about Vala and what she went through with Quetesh(?). This was a perfect vehicle for those of us who didn't particularly care for the Vala character, to gain some insight into what made her the way she is, so that maybe we could care for her. It was a wasted opportunity imo. As for Cam, having him found hand-cuffed to the bed would have been fine, but stuffing his face, looking like he didn't have a care in the world, to me made a mockery of the character. But hey, I'm sure someone thought it was fun.

But that had nothing to do with Cam and Vala, it was the writing as usual. Very slipshod and thrown together without a whole lot of thought. CB and BB did a great job with what they were given, they just weren't given a lot to work with.

And that's basically what I've seen most people say about the episode. Would we (the supposed bashers) have liked to have seen more Sam? Sure, of course we would. Does it mean that we based our dislike of the episode solely on the fact that there wasn't much Sam? No, I don't think so. And I don't think that we should have to pretend that we liked it.

As for what started this whole rigamarole, I don't have a problem if someone is feeling uncomfortable with the conversation, that they say "Hey guys, this is getting a little close to bashing" or "Hey, remember some of us like Cam/Vala, can people keep that in mind when commenting". The problem comes when it's put across as "I can't believe you're bashing Cam/Vala, what hypocrits, I'm leaving" or something along those lines. It comes across more as a threat than a suggestion or request, and when that happens you get knee-jerk reactions from people and everything implodes.

I thought CB did an excellent job with what she was given, I just think we could have had so much more.

**minigeek** · 10 September 2006, 03:57 PM

Originally posted by KatG

I thought CB did an excellent job with what she was given, I just think we could have had so much more.

There are no actual spoilers in this so I'm not going to hide it in tags.

In this episode, I think Claudia finally had a chance to showcase what a brilliant actor she truly is. Yet I agree with many others in that I find it unfortunate the meat of her dialogue and story was otherwise missing. If you ask me, Claudia Black took on a mediochre script with really no solidly founded basis for character development in terms of Vala, and she injected character development (in as much as she could without the actual writing for it), all by herself vis a vis her performance. With writing such as MM was stricken with, it would have (and apparently did) take a tremendous talent to pull off what Claudia did. What I got from MM is the sense that Claudia Black (much the same as Amanda always does) is able to take a zero script and make something memorable all her own out of it.

What little we saw of Sam in MM was memorable, and though Claudia didn't have much in the way of good writing to work with for Vala (IMHO), she herself pulled off a captivating performance none the less. If only there had been some relevant story substance to work with behind it, it would have been one hell of an episode.

mg

**Uber** · 10 September 2006, 04:10 PM

Originally posted by minigeek

There are no actual spoilers in this so I'm not going to hide it in tags.

In this episode, I think Claudia finally had a chance to showcase what a brilliant actor she truly is. Yet I agree with many others in that I find it unfortunate the meat of her dialogue and story was otherwise missing. If you ask me, Claudia Black took on a mediochre script with really no solidly founded basis for character development in terms of Vala, and she injected character development (in as much as she could without the actual writing for it), all by herself vis a vis her performance. With writing such as MM was stricken with, it would have (and apparently did) take a tremendous talent to pull off what Claudia did. What I got from MM is the sense that Claudia Black (much the same as Amanda always does) is able to take a zero script and make something memorable all her own out of it.

What little we saw of Sam in MM was memorable, and though Claudia didn't have much in the way of good writing to work with for Vala (IMHO), she herself pulled off a captivating performance none the less. If only there had been some relevant story substance to work with behind it, it would have been one hell of an episode.

mg

This is how I felt. MM was a tragic disappointment for me, but not for reasons people might assume.

I love Claudia and Vala has really, REALLY grown on me. My sense was that we were going to learn some meaty truths about her and Qetesh. I was hoping for flashbacks. I was hoping for something that gave real insight into her character and personality. I was hoping for a real story to drive the events and I felt cheated by a boat load of contrivances.

Whereas I love Vala even more seeing what she went through and of course appreciating more and more Claudia's gift for making magic out of mediocrity, she really deserved a lot more than that.

Sam? Well in the 2.5 minutes we had her on screen, she was cool. Loved her outfit, she still has a snarky wit and she's still a great shot. That's about all I can comment about her in this ep because that's about all we saw.

Outside of Claudia's brilliance, there were some other great moments...Teal'c had one too for the 33 seconds he had something to do, but alas they were buried in a really bad script.

I still hope for something in the future where the two of them discuss their experiences as hosts. I really think that'd be GOLD.

**Skydiver** · 10 September 2006, 04:36 PM

it would have been nice to have seen something more substantial with vala

such as she and teal'c, the 'lab rats' issues with him and sam, remarks about daniel and his thing for blended women, what precisely did athena and qetesh get up to?

i don't know if i posted my 'dream' scenario here or not but here goes

Spoiler:

if i had written the fanfic the epiosde was based off, that's how i woulda written it

**Mandysg1** · 10 September 2006, 04:40 PM

Originally posted by Skydiver

it would have been nice to have seen something more substantial with vala

such as she and teal'c, the 'lab rats' issues with him and sam, remarks about daniel and his thing for blended women, what precisely did athena and qetesh get up to?

i don't know if i posted my 'dream' scenario here or not but here goes

Spoiler:

if i had written the fanfic the epiosde was based off, that's how i woulda written it

Well you see Sky, that's your problem. You're not writing for SG1

**ChevronSeven** · 10 September 2006, 04:42 PM

Originally posted by Skydiver

it would have been nice to have seen something more substantial with vala

such as she and teal'c, the 'lab rats' issues with him and sam, remarks about daniel and his thing for blended women, what precisely did athena and qetesh get up to?

You know what would work for me? If Vala sat down and asked Teal'c about his first experiences on Earth and how he coped and adjusted to life here. Also, perhaps talk with Sam about what her perception of Teal'c was and how Sam saw him change over the years and if Sam could invision Vala fitting in and becoming a part of Earth society. Now those would be some fantastic scenes.

**Queen_Bee** · 10 September 2006, 04:44 PM

momento mori didnt do it for me to be honest
i dont mind CB, i dont know it felt like something substantial was missing
it was great to see sam, t and daniel together, for the short few seconds they were on screen
still lack of jack makes Bee go CRAZY
i m also a little dissapointed BB is first on the credits, come on, amanda is truely deserving of that spot!
anywho, thats my two cents worth for now!

**Skydiver** · 10 September 2006, 04:45 PM

give the actors something more than car chases to chew on. heck, it wasn't even the actors, it was the stunt doubles

emotional and angst is what actors live for. it gives them something to do beyond standing there adn looking pretty

some actors have said that thier job/characters sometimes get stale, well giving them emotional stuff to do might keep it from getting stale

**golfbooy** · 10 September 2006, 04:51 PM

I think, too, that Memento Mori is another example of the show's past working against its current state. Previously, when the writers have set out to do something of a character piece or to show us some backstory, there was always a tangible gain. It always either informed the characters' current actions or told us why changes were being made in the character. I'm thinking along the lines of Jolinar's Memories for Sam, when we learned why her relationship with her father and brother were strained and what happened to her mother and, in part, why she joined the Air Force. I'm thinking along the lines of Threshold, where we see the foundation of Teal'c's relationship with Bra'tac, the foundation of his doubt in the Goa'uld as Gods, his life with Drey'ac, the atrocities he committed, and how it all led up to his fateful decision to help SG-1 that day on Chulak--all of which told us the journey he was going through with the Rite of Mal'sharon. And I'm especially thinking along the lines of Absolute Power, where little cut scenes of Daniel's thirst for power and how the Goa'uld knowledge was influencing his behavior were shown to us. We saw him torturing Sam, using the ribbon device on Jack, and even bringing Apophis to bow before him. Those are specifically the types of scenes I expected to see in Memento Mori, all the more so given Vala's comments about the horrible things she was seeing. But there was nothing of that, and there was nothing to tell us anything we didn't already know about Vala. So those questions are still out there. What about any past family? Was she always this way, or did something change her into the opportunist she is? Does she feel remorse or guilt for her past crimes, and if so, does she feel the need to atone for them, like Teal'c does?

Spoiler:

Or something like that.

/goes off singing the Rimmer Song

**Skydiver** · 10 September 2006, 04:57 PM

very true. M&MM was 180 degrees from MM. M&MM showed just how good the show COULD be.

course, i can't think of an atlantis eps thus far this season that wouldn't have made MM look 'good'

MM was such a huge wasted opportunity

**Mandysg1** · 10 September 2006, 05:00 PM

Originally posted by golfbooy

I think, too, that Memento Mori is another example of the show's past working against its current state. Previously, when the writers have set out to do something of a character piece or to show us some backstory, there was always a tangible gain. It always either informed the characters' current actions or told us why changes were being made in the character. I'm thinking along the lines of Jolinar's Memories for Sam, when we learned why her relationship with her father and brother were strained and what happened to her mother and, in part, why she joined the Air Force. I'm thinking along the lines of Threshold, where we see the foundation of Teal'c's relationship with Bra'tac, the foundation of his doubt in the Goa'uld as Gods, his life with Drey'ac, the atrocities he committed, and how it all led up to his fateful decision to help SG-1 that day on Chulak--all of which told us the journey he was going through with the Rite of Mal'sharon. And I'm especially thinking along the lines of Absolute Power, where little cut scenes of Daniel's thirst for power and how the Goa'uld knowledge was influencing his behavior were shown to us. We saw him torturing Sam, using the ribbon device on Jack, and even bringing Apophis to bow before him. Those are specifically the types of scenes I expected to see in Memento Mori, all the more so given Vala's comments about the horrible things she was seeing. But there was nothing of that, and there was nothing to tell us anything we didn't already know about Vala. So those questions are still out there. What about any past family? Was she always this way, or did something change her into the opportunist she is? Does she feel remorse or guilt for her past crimes, and if so, does she feel the need to atone for them, like Teal'c does?

Also, it really, really didn't help having Mckay and Mrs. Miller on right after Memento Mori. Everything that was lacking in the night's first episode was there in the second. We were introduced to parts of Mckay's past we didn't know about, we saw how even with his own sister his personality and way of expressing himself (or lack thereof) led to problems and estrangement. And we saw him tackle fears of and feelings of inadequacy both with her and with his parallel universe counterpart. The Rodney at the end of Mckay and Mrs. Miller is different from the Rodney at the start of it, and so is the audience's perception of him. That's what everyone wanted Memento Mori to be for Vala, which makes the episode's failure all the more bitter.

Or something like that.

/goes off singing the Rimmer Song

Great post golfbooy

but what is the Rimmr Song

**AGateFan** · 10 September 2006, 05:04 PM

Originally posted by Mandysg1

Great post golfbooy

but what is the Rimmr Song

Golfbooy rules.

**chocdoc** · 10 September 2006, 05:15 PM

I agree with so many of the post about MM -- for me a wasted opportunity that had so much potential to tell us more about Vala. I also agree that McKay and Mrs. Miller was so much better---it was a breath of fresh air for me because it is an episode that was character driven, and yet had a great feeling of team (just like SG-1 pre-season 9).

Maybe MM turned out the way it did for the following reasons:

Spoiler:

**Skydiver** · 10 September 2006, 05:25 PM

Originally posted by chocdoc

I agree with so many of the post about MM -- for me a wasted opportunity that had so much potential to tell us more about Vala. I also agree that McKay and Mrs. Miller was so much better---it was a breath of fresh air for me because it is an episode that was character driven, and yet had a great feeling of team (just like SG-1 pre-season 9).

Maybe MM turned out the way it did for the following reasons:

Spoiler:

you know, you have a poiint. these writers - or coop - seem incapable of writing a female characer unless she's half of a pair.

they can't conceive of a stand alone woman, she MUST be paired up. Must be with a guy. must have a man to 'complete' her

vala in MM is just another victim in these writers' sexist views and inability to write a real female

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