Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[Rachel500]

Whoo-hoo! The Season 5 discussion has started!

Cags, very nice review and a big thank you for organising everything!

(Small correction though - Jack doesn't leave Teal'c behind on the planet, he dives for cover when being shot at and Tanith uses that opportunity to ring up to Apophis' ship with Teal'c)

Generally,

I have to admit I also really like Exodus and Enemies as a two-parter, especially as we get Jacob along for the ride. And because we finally got rid of Apophis (I hadn't been overly enthused at his coming back to life). The combination of the Goa'uld and the Replicators as threats was fantastically done.

I also love the family vibe throughout these episodes because of the presence of Jacob; not only are there great father-daugher moments (the one in the engine room when Jacob checks on Sam and she admits she's thinking of Teal'c, and the one when Teal'c blasts the control panel and Jacob protects her), but some great Jack-Jacob moments (the whole Mr Positive vs Mr Negative), and some great Jacob-Daniel moments too, add in the worry about Teal'c and reaction to his likely death - and combined you get this really warm and fuzzy family feel to the team.

Sam and Jack

For the most part, there is just this great working chemistry. They're completely in synch in terms of what needs to be done. Their only moment of disagreement really is the one where Jack asks her if she can hotwire the panel and she doubts it commenting they'd be pretty stupid to lock them in there if that was the case. She actually gets very Jacobish with Jack - and there's this great beat where they're looking at each other, and she kind of remembers that he's the boss, and the question was probably an order, and reverts to being Sam who's under his command.

I actually think this interaction though signals how Sam would be with Jack if they did have an equal relationship; she would be snarky with him and know that its OK to be snarky with him and he'd enjoy her being snarky with him.

I do think that losing Teal'c here for a time physically (and at the end and into Threshold for a time emotionally) once again underscores to Jack the dangers of getting too personally involved that he'd just learned in Entity. Teal'c's brainwashing is made possible because Teal'c went off on a personal mission to destroy Tanith; Teal'c captures them because they trust him and are just so thrilled he escaped that they don't question it despite the risk that he's been in enemy hands.

I also think the conversation Jack has with Daniel is very revealing of Jack's view: his best isn't good enough. For me, it hints at the underlying insecurities Jack has.

[josiane]

Hooray for the rewatch! Thanks Cags for sorting it all out and kicking us off in such style

Implications For Sam and Jack.

Well at first it's tempting to view the surface of this as very ship-lite but, actually, emotionally there's a lot going on for Jack that has implications on how he sees the world and conducts his relationships with others.
The first thing that comes to mind is his interaction with Jacob. There's so many similarities between them that it's hard not to wonder if some of the attraction for Sam is just that (and no, I don't mean as in Jack being a father figure, I mean Sam falling for a guy who has the same humour/sarcasm/sense of duty/honour as her father.. ) Jacob is older and more seasoned and his snark (for want of a better word) tends to be much more restrained - whereas Jack snarks all the time but the overall approach is the same. They both have this stubborn streak too and I get the impression Sam's "Welcome to my life" isn't just an expression of what it's like having Jacob as a father but also subtly aimed at Jack too, as in "this is what I have to put up with from you.".
Not particularly shippy but a nice observation; there's a subtle friendly little power play between Jack and Jacob throughout the episode, with the authority switching back and forward between them as needed.

This is a really nice observation - I hadn't really thought of it that way round but it's a nice interpretation. I think that as these are the episodes almost more than any others that really showcase the similarities between Jack and Jacob, then even if Sam didn't mean it as a subtle dig at Jack, it definitely works as a bit of a wink to the audience

Sam and Jack

For the most part, there is just this great working chemistry. They're completely in synch in terms of what needs to be done. Their only moment of disagreement really is the one where Jack asks her if she can hotwire the panel and she doubts it commenting they'd be pretty stupid to lock them in there if that was the case. She actually gets very Jacobish with Jack - and there's this great beat where they're looking at each other, and she kind of remembers that he's the boss, and the question was probably an order, and reverts to being Sam who's under his command.

I actually think this interaction though signals how Sam would be with Jack if they did have an equal relationship; she would be snarky with him and know that its OK to be snarky with him and he'd enjoy her being snarky with him.

This is a great observation too, and I think that it's entirely understandable that Sam forgets herself a bit in this way at this point, after being stuck with both Jacob and Jack snarking at each other for the past episode and a half! She's slipped into that very 'family-mode' that you were talking about earlier in your post.

[mara-anni]

Howdie Shippers!

Second chapter of my new fic is up for those who may be interested.

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5925031/2/Going_Under

[hlndncr]

Hi all! I've been lurking for a while because I'm not sure I have much new to say, but I love reading everyone else's point of view. I thought with the Season 5 rewatch I might start adding my own comments. So here goes.

First, love the banner. Wish I knew how to do that.

I really like Exodus/Enemies (hard not to think of them together, although I think I do like the second half just a little bit better). It has great action and great character moments, and love love love Jacob.

Cags:
Totally agree with all you had to say about the Jack/Jacob dynamic. Never thought of Sam's "Welcome to my life" comment as a snark against Jack, but it works. I think it is also saying that he is in fact a welcome part of her life, he fits right in and belongs there--no matter how exasperating that can be at times--just like her dad.

Your analysis on the discussion between Jack and Daniel losing Teal'c is interesting. You point out how they never actually look at one another. In fact, there have been studies done about how boys tend to talk to one another side by side, whereas girls will engage more directly face to face, which has been postulated as one of the reasons women develop stronger verbal communication skills. Obviously, how men and women communicate has implications for their relationships, but I think Sam has proven that she knows how to pick up on Jack's non-verbal cues and moods (a good thing since I have a hard time seeing Jack ever having an open, face to face, heart to heart discussion with anyone about his feelings, even Sam [see e.g. the "feeling feelings" scene in Beneath the Surface--no eye contact, even when Jack know who he was.])

Rachel:
I'm in full agreement about the family dynamic going on in this episode. I mean it really is just the SG-1 family (plus Jacob, who really is just another member of the family) out in the universe, taking on the bad guys. In fact, this may explain why Sam sort of forgets herself and let's some of the formalism go when she and Jack are discussing the door controls. (Oops! You mean this isn't just a fun filled family vacation?)

Don't see this as an example of Jack pulling back from personal involvement because of his experience in Entity. He and Sam seem really close and, as you did mention, totally in sync. This observation also includes Daniel, as demonstrated when they are seemlessly trading off shooting the replicators as they run for the cargo ship at the end. Love that scene--really well shot.

What I did see in Jack from his Entity experience is an amplification of his tendency to, as he approvingly states in the episode, "shoot first and send flowers later." And his unrelenting drive to hold on to those he loves even if it means shooting Teal'c for "resisting a little." (Question: Do you think Jack shows less hesitation in shooting Teal'c here because he knows T won't die, it's not Sam, or he's been through something like this before?)

I'd also just like to mention a couple of things I didn't like in the episode and I couple I did and see if anyone else has thoughts on them.

I did not get the "You go girl" line from Jack. The interaction before about Sam studying schematics and knowing how to have a good time was nice and felt right, but that last line just didn't seem to me like something Jack would say and therefore I think it was delivered poorly.

When Teal'c blows the door controls after capturing Jacob everyone's reactions just seem wrong to me. Sam cowers in her dad's arms, Jack runs to the corner and covers his head, and Daniel stands firm and doesn't even flinch. What's up with that?

Love it when Jacob hails Apophis's ship and says he is the commander of the vessel and when Jack protests Jacob slaps him down by saying, "You want to quibble about rank right now." Because let's face it, not only is Jacob the oldest and the wisest of the Tok'ra and the only one who really knows how to fly that ship, but he is also a retired two star Air Force general, and Sam's dad (and I have no doubt Jacob knows the score on that one), which means he pretty much out ranks Jack in every way, and Jack knows it. He just needed a little reminding.

Also love what it says about the characters when they each go through the half open door. Sam and Jack go through side by side with their heads up, Jacob does a stylish little roll, and Daniel scoots through on his backside.

[josiane]

Welcome hlndncr! Always good to see new people join in - hope you'll stick around and contribute for the rest of the season too

Kinda OT, but if you do want to know how to make banners, feel free to head on over to the artwork thread where we'd be happy to answer questions, give help and get you on your way. That's where most of us got started

[Cagranosalis]

Welcome hlndncr! Always good to see new people join in - hope you'll stick around and contribute for the rest of the season too

I'll ditto that! Always great to have new people posting here.

Kinda OT, but if you do want to know how to make banners, feel free to head on over to the artwork thread where we'd be happy to answer questions, give help and get you on your way. That's where most of us got started

I was just about to say that too! Alternatively, if you're just not into making artwork, you could ask one of the members there if they would like to make you a banner for your sig. There' plenty of people there who would be more than willing to give it a go.

(Small correction though - Jack doesn't leave Teal'c behind on the planet, he dives for cover when being shot at and Tanith uses that opportunity to ring up to Apophis' ship with Teal'c)

Pedant!

(But yes, you are right; he was ringed up).

I also love the family vibe throughout these episodes because of the presence of Jacob; not only are there great father-daugher moments (the one in the engine room when Jacob checks on Sam and she admits she's thinking of Teal'c, and the one when Teal'c blasts the control panel and Jacob protects her), but some great Jack-Jacob moments (the whole Mr Positive vs Mr Negative), and some great Jacob-Daniel moments too, add in the worry about Teal'c and reaction to his likely death - and combined you get this really warm and fuzzy family feel to the team.

Yes that's exactly it! Warm fuzzies all round.

Sam and Jack

Their only moment of disagreement really is the one where Jack asks her if she can hotwire the panel and she doubts it commenting they'd be pretty stupid to lock them in there if that was the case. She actually gets very Jacobish with Jack - and there's this great beat where they're looking at each other, and she kind of remembers that he's the boss, and the question was probably an order, and reverts to being Sam who's under his command.

I actually think this interaction though signals how Sam would be with Jack if they did have an equal relationship; she would be snarky with him and know that its OK to be snarky with him and he'd enjoy her being snarky with him.

And it's very good hint as to what their current relationship would be like (if, like me, you're in the 'Got it together after Threads' camp.

Hi all! I've been lurking for a while because I'm not sure I have much new to say, but I love reading everyone else's point of view. I thought with the Season 5 rewatch I might start adding my own comments. So here goes.

First, love the banner. Wish I knew how to do that.

Thank you. And Welcome too. Awesome first post. Really, great stuff. You definitely need to post more.

Your analysis on the discussion between Jack and Daniel losing Teal'c is interesting. You point out how they never actually look at one another. In fact, there have been studies done about how boys tend to talk to one another side by side, whereas girls will engage more directly face to face, which has been postulated as one of the reasons women develop stronger verbal communication skills. Obviously, how men and women communicate has implications for their relationships, but I think Sam has proven that she knows how to pick up on Jack's non-verbal cues and moods (a good thing since I have a hard time seeing Jack ever having an open, face to face, heart to heart discussion with anyone about his feelings, even Sam [see e.g. the "feeling feelings" scene in Beneath the Surface--no eye contact, even when Jack know who he was.])

Interesting thing about the studies. I never knew that but, yes, it makes perfect sense to me. And good point about the non-verbal clues. Sam and Jack are very in tune with each other. And actually...

... This observation also includes Daniel, as demonstrated when they are seemlessly trading off shooting the replicators as they run for the cargo ship at the end. Love that scene--really well shot.

Well of course it is; it's directed by Martin Wood.

Actually, that scene - and although Teal'c isn't there - this is SG-1 The Team, doing what it does best. It's wonderful.

What I did see in Jack from his Entity experience is an amplification of his tendency to, as he approvingly states in the episode, "shoot first and send flowers later." And his unrelenting drive to hold on to those he loves even if it means shooting Teal'c for "resisting a little." (Question: Do you think Jack shows less hesitation in shooting Teal'c here because he knows T won't die, it's not Sam, or he's been through something like this before?)

Lovely observation on Jack's motivations.
On whether/why he is less hesitant. I think in part there's an element of unknown. In Entity we (and Jack) knew two shots from a zat kills - or should kill anyway. In this situation, he's firing a bullet (which isn't always fatal) into armour (which can offer some protection) at a Jaffa (with a symbiote that can help heal him), so it's much less black and white whether it's a kill shot. I think, if you'd taken Teal'c and put him in Sam's place in Entity, Jack would have had a hard enough time pulling the trigger then. It's not the act of deliberately putting his team mates' lives on the line that's the stumbling block where Sam is concerned. He can do that; he has and does time and time again. It's the consequences to him emotionally afterwards that are telling to his feelings towards Sam being... slightly different to that of the rest of his team. In short, If Teal'c had been in Sam's place in Entity, Jack wouldn't have been sitting there by his bed looking utterly lost/distraught/griefsticken in quite the same way. IMO anyway.

I'd also just like to mention a couple of things I didn't like in the episode and I couple I did and see if anyone else has thoughts on them.

I did not get the "You go girl" line from Jack. The interaction before about Sam studying schematics and knowing how to have a good time was nice and felt right, but that last line just didn't seem to me like something Jack would say and therefore I think it was delivered poorly.

Hmm, I thought it was ok and sounded just fine to me. I have huge issues with "We are sooo going down" from the previous episode though... just urgh!

When Teal'c blows the door controls after capturing Jacob everyone's reactions just seem wrong to me. Sam cowers in her dad's arms, Jack runs to the corner and covers his head, and Daniel stands firm and doesn't even flinch. What's up with that?

There's a few times I notice a lack of reaction from Daniel that seems disproportionate to others' reactions. (The scene in Into The Fire when Jacks being Goa'ulded comes to mind). Hmm!

Also love what it says about the characters when they each go through the half open door. Sam and Jack go through side by side with their heads up, Jacob does a stylish little roll, and Daniel scoots through on his backside.

Somewhere, there's a psychologist with a lot to say about that.

[Petra]

Hi guys! I'm so happy the rewatch started again; thank you Cags for organising it!

I feel bad for not volunteering to help when you were all so gracious with my first attempt with "The First Ones" but unfortunately RL got in the way. My thesis finally kicked off and I won't have as much time as I used to have; I will however try to post in whenever I have some time to spare. And I'll definitely volunteer for season 6 rewatch

Hi all! I've been lurking for a while because I'm not sure I have much new to say, but I love reading everyone else's point of view. I thought with the Season 5 rewatch I might start adding my own comments. So here goes.

Welcome to the thread (and forum)!

Onto "Enemies", although I'm going from memory, as I don't have DVDs at dorm and don't have time to watch them anyway

Don't see this as an example of Jack pulling back from personal involvement because of his experience in Entity. He and Sam seem really close and, as you did mention, totally in sync. This observation also includes Daniel, as demonstrated when they are seemlessly trading off shooting the replicators as they run for the cargo ship at the end. Love that scene--really well shot.

This nicely fits my little theory I mentioned at the end of season 4, that it's not only the events of "Entity" which distance Jack from her but rather a combination of killing Sam, nearly losing Daniel (The Light) and emotional roller-coster Teal'c put him through (watching him die/getting him back physically but not mentally/watching him nearly die again) that makes Jack realise he's too close to them all (and Sam especially), which in turn leads to his conscious (?) decision to put some distance between himself and his "family", which will be evident in season 5.

What I did see in Jack from his Entity experience is an amplification of his tendency to, as he approvingly states in the episode, "shoot first and send flowers later." And his unrelenting drive to hold on to those he loves even if it means shooting Teal'c for "resisting a little." (Question: Do you think Jack shows less hesitation in shooting Teal'c here because he knows T won't die, it's not Sam, or he's been through something like this before?)

IMO it's answer number 1, no question. Jack didn't shoot to kill, just to disarm Teal'c and consequently help him, so there was no reason to hesitate. With Sam he was convinced his shot would kill her.

I admit though that given his shady past, it's possible he's been through something like that before too.

I did not get the "You go girl" line from Jack. The interaction before about Sam studying schematics and knowing how to have a good time was nice and felt right, but that last line just didn't seem to me like something Jack would say and therefore I think it was delivered poorly.

All I remember is that I loved that line! I think I took it in a teasing manner the whole scene was in.

When Teal'c blows the door controls after capturing Jacob everyone's reactions just seem wrong to me. Sam cowers in her dad's arms, Jack runs to the corner and covers his head, and Daniel stands firm and doesn't even flinch. What's up with that?

I agree with you on this one, their reactions bug me too. They seem to be way OOC to me.

Love it when Jacob hails Apophis's ship and says he is the commander of the vessel and when Jack protests Jacob slaps him down by saying, "You want to quibble about rank right now." Because let's face it, not only is Jacob the oldest and the wisest of the Tok'ra and the only one who really knows how to fly that ship, but he is also a retired two star Air Force general, and Sam's dad (and I have no doubt Jacob knows the score on that one), which means he pretty much out ranks Jack in every way, and Jack knows it. He just needed a little reminding.

I have to disagree. Jacob can outrank Jack in a million ways but Jack was the one in charge of the mission and in charge of the ship and Jake had no right to go over Jack's head and make decisions concerning them all. Of course their butting heads isn't really serious and is rather played for laughs, so the whole point may be moot.

[Toomi]

Enemies:

Well my first thought is wow!!! This is the first time I've watched any of my Stargate or Farscape on the new LCD TV with a Blu Ray player and did it ever make a difference from my old 27" tube!!!! I don't ever remember seeing the cut over Jack's eyebrow before!

I love seeing Jacob/Selmac and Jack trade quips. Imagine hanging out with some friends, one of them a guy (or girl) you like and you run into your Dad. How would you feel if the one you have a 'thing' for is joking around and trading sarcastic barbs with your father. It would weird me out for sure. Sam has on occasion rolled her eyes, ignored them, stopped them, but think how awkward that could feel for her.

I love the 'we're not going to make it' bit, especially Jacobs line about blowing the last chance he has of being right. I think I agree with whomever stated it before. When Sam comments to Jack 'welcome to my life' it's not only a crack at Jacob, but also at Jack himself (who gets it about 2 seconds after she walks past him, as does Daniel who walks away awkwardly).

[Toomi]

Synopsis

The episode starts with a recap from Enemies, having Teal'c being held 'captive' on the ship after being brainwashed by Apophis.

Once back at the SGC, Teal'c denounces Apophis and fools O'Neill, Hammond and Dr. Mackenzie. Bra'tac very quickly knows that it is a ruse and zats Teal'c for it, removing his symbiote. After discussing with SG-1, Bra'tac goes ahead with taking Teal'c to the brink of death without his symbiote to help 'heal' him. Jack and Daniel spend time by Teal'c's bedside trying to convince him he is wrong about Apophis and question his logic.

Favourite Scene

The bit between Daniel and Jack and the words valeur (the fabric) and Valar (Teal'c's friend).

The bit when Teal'c says 'do not question me woman' and we cut back to Jack and Daniel. "Did he just call me woman?" Asks Daniel.

Favourite Quote

"Life for the sake of life, means nothing" - Bra'tac

Review

O'Neill greets Teal'c enthusiastically with Hammond in the background and they exchange words and Teal'c denounces Apophis. Within seconds of greeting Teal'c, Bra'tac knows it's not all well, and Zats Teal'c, removing his symbiote. When Bra'tac briefs SG-1 on his proposed method, there's a lot of eye movement and for me there's a bit of guessing where all the eye contact is going. There's a moment when Hammond's eyes meet Jacks, and another moment where Jack's eyes meet Sam's eyes. It's after Sam suggests there's other methods, and after Bra'tac states that they have to take Teal'c to the brink.

When Jack asks Sam to show Bra'tac to the VIP room, why does Daniel seem so confused? Is it because Jack just asked Sam instead of him?

Janet and Sam have a discussion as Janet does not think that this is helping Teal'c and doesn't agree with it. I'm not sure that Jack wholy agrees with the treatment either, but choses to trust Bra'tac, as does Daniel. Sam too is trusting Bra'tac and his decision, but Janet can not allow herself to do so and threatens that she may resign afterwards.

In Teal'c's flashbacks we learn a bit more about his life before meeting SG-1. We learn of his friend Valar, Teal'c's training, his betrayal of Valar, then how he saved Valar's life while testing Bra'tac's theory of false gods.

There's a great tie in with Bra'tac telling Teal'c to 'make a difference' and the COTG prison scene. Seeing the situation from the other side, and Bra'tac in agreement with Teal'c that while they are only few, they are Teal'c's chance. While Teal'c is reliving that moment, Bra'tac tries yelling at Teal'c before allowing Janet to put the symbiote back into Teal'c.

The episode ends with Teal'c renouncing Apophis for real this time, and requesting his position back on SG-1.

Extras...

The scene where Apophis tells Teal'c to kill his friend, there's a Zat in a holder! Another thing I've never noticed before, but it's a great idea!
Kudos to CJ for the fight scene in the snow! From the sounds of the commentary it was really quite cold!
The scene with Jack and Hammond in the observaion room, the letters 'P' and 'D' are visible in the reflection from the candles for Peter DeLuise who directed the video.


Implications for Jack and Sam

I think this one depends on how you look at this episode. I have never watched this entire series with my shipper glasses on. I started in season 6 and kinda jumped all over the place trying to catch up watching re-runs etc. By the season 8 finale I'd caught up, but they were not in sequence. I joined in for the first 2 seasons of the S/J rewatch, but haven't watched season 3 or 4 with that solely in mind. I'm feeling a little lost as to where I should be at this point, or where Sam and Jack are in my mind.

I'm not sure that there really is much in this episode. It is a Teal'c episode, with some good team moments, but that's what I mostly see. Decisions being made by the team after hearing advice from Bra'tac and Janet. It shows that Jack will deflect and Daniel will follow to a point (the bedside humour) and that while Janet and Sam are friends and both share the scientific mind and way of thinking, Sam will trust her team and go with their decision.

Spoiler:

I'm not sure who made the banner, but it wasn't I. (It's kinda appropriate considering my area is supposed to get 40cm of snow tonight

[Kate1013]

Enemies:

I agree with a lot of what everyone else has said, including the scene where Sam cowers in her father's arms when Teal'c blows up the control panel - I found it very out of character.

The other part that stuck out most, for me, in this episode is the scene where Jacob and Sam are in the engine room together trying to see if they can get the hyperdrive working (or something). Jacob senses Sam being a bit antsy, asks if she is okay and then she tells him that she's worried about Teal'c. I've never seen Jacob ask her this before, even when Sam has appeared to be more worried than she seems here. There have been times when she's been worried about Jack (Tangent) and Jacob doesn't even glance at her, as though he's scared of the answer.

[hlndncr]

The other part that stuck out most, for me, in this episode is the scene where Jacob and Sam are in the engine room together trying to see if they can get the hyperdrive working (or something). Jacob senses Sam being a bit antsy, asks if she is okay and then she tells him that she's worried about Teal'c. I've never seen Jacob ask her this before, even when Sam has appeared to be more worried than she seems here. There have been times when she's been worried about Jack (Tangent) and Jacob doesn't even glance at her, as though he's scared of the answer.

I think even here Jacob's inquiry is pretty cursory. He certainly doesn't probe any deeper. But I do believe there is a sort of unspoken agreement among everyone (and I mean SG-1, Jacob, and even Hammond) to not discuss the feelings Sam and Jack may have for one another. I'm not sure it's fear. I think partly the others are respecting Sam and Jack's decision to not pursue a personal relationship at this time, and perhaps also a desire to keep things the way they are, which, as we can see from the interactions in this episode, has become comfortable and familar.

[hlndncr]

Nice job Toomi on the review. I think this is a hard one to address from a shipper perspective.

If Enemies showed a sychronicity between Jack and Sam, Threshold really emphasized distance. Not only were there no moments between Jack and Sam per se, but Jack seemed to be making an effort to be apart from her. He sent her away to show Bra'tac to the VIP quarters. Then he leaves almost as soon as she returns, almost like he can't get away fast enough. When he does come back early he goes to the observation room rather than the room with Sam and Teal'c.

Sam does have some really lovely scenes with Bra'tac, Teal'c and Janet discussing life, faith, freedom, and friendship. While this is a Teal'c episode, and I really appreciate getting more of his back story, Sam seems to be the heart of this episode, the emotional pivot on which the others depend. And I just love scenes between Sam and Teal'c (of which there seem to be so few in the series) because CJ and AT play off of one another so well and bring such an emotional depth to every moment.

Again I have to point out what I think was a characterization error. I think Jack and Daniel should have switched lines on their little velour/valar interplay. Jack is the king of malapropisms and Daniel is a supposedly very skilled linguist. It would have been much funnier and made much more sense if Jack was the one who thought Teal'c said "velour." Especially given Jack's quip a short time later about Teal'c briefly talking about fabric.

Finally, a note about the look of the episode. I love the contrast between the cold, washed out blue of Teal'c's memories of his time in service to Apophis, verses the warm golden hues at the SGC where his "family" are trying to bring him back to them. And as he's flashing through his time with SG-1 the colors are again more vibrant and alive as Teal'c awakes to the realization of his true self.

[m_wendy_r]

Finally, a note about the look of the episode. I love the contrast between the cold, washed out blue of Teal'c's memories of his time in service to Apophis, verses the warm golden hues at the SGC where his "family" are trying to bring him back to them. And as he's flashing through his time with SG-1 the colors are again more vibrant and alive as Teal'c awakes to the realization of his true self.

I don't remember anything shippy per se about the episode, but it's still interesting to talk about the episode. I like this thought -- probably because I hadn't consciously thought it, but now you've said it, I can really see the differences and am aware of them.

[mara-anni]

Howdie Shippers!

Third installment of Going Under is up for any who are following it

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5925031/3/Going_Under

[Cagranosalis]

Thankd for the great review Toomi. Not an easy episode to pick out any significant ship in and you did great finding some lovely moments (ship or otherwise) that I'd not seen before.

When Jack asks Sam to show Bra'tac to the VIP room, why does Daniel seem so confused? Is it because Jack just asked Sam instead of him?

Hmm, I never noticed before. I guess it's normally the sort of thing you'd expect Daniel to do.

In Teal'c's flashbacks we learn a bit more about his life before meeting SG-1. We learn of his friend Valar, Teal'c's training, his betrayal of Valar, then how he saved Valar's life while testing Bra'tac's theory of false gods.

I absolutely love the fact we see so much more of Teal'c backstory here. It's a real charcacter building episode for him and does make up for the fact he got quite neglected - character development wise - during most of season 4.

Extras
The scene where Apophis tells Teal'c to kill his friend, there's a Zat in a holder! Another thing I've never noticed before, but it's a great idea!
Kudos to CJ for the fight scene in the snow! From the sounds of the commentary it was really quite cold!
The scene with Jack and Hammond in the observaion room, the letters 'P' and 'D' are visible in the reflection from the candles for Peter DeLuise who directed the video.

This is one episode I have never listened to the extras for so thank you for sharing that.

Implications for Jack and Sam

I think this one depends on how you look at this episode. I have never watched this entire series with my shipper glasses on. I started in season 6 and kinda jumped all over the place trying to catch up watching re-runs etc. By the season 8 finale I'd caught up, but they were not in sequence. I joined in for the first 2 seasons of the S/J rewatch, but haven't watched season 3 or 4 with that solely in mind. I'm feeling a little lost as to where I should be at this point, or where Sam and Jack are in my mind.

I'm not sure that there really is much in this episode. It is a Teal'c episode, with some good team moments, but that's what I mostly see. Decisions being made by the team after hearing advice from Bra'tac and Janet. It shows that Jack will deflect and Daniel will follow to a point (the bedside humour) and that while Janet and Sam are friends and both share the scientific mind and way of thinking, Sam will trust her team and go with their decision.

I have to be honest I don't see any real Sam/Jack development here (in a romantic sense anyway) and, like you, just teamlyness. I guess this is why they say season 5 is the season that ship forgot. Actually, on reflection that's not strictly true. Most people see Jack as pulling away from Sam during this season but, you know, I see no real evidence of that in this or the last epsiode. It's not a season I regularly rewatch (apart from selected episodes like 48 hours, because I like Mckay ) so I don't have much recollection of anything that might specifically hint at a withdrawal from either Jack or Sam at this point. And this is one of the reasons why the rewatches are so great to do.

Spoiler:

I'm not sure who made the banner, but it wasn't I. (It's kinda appropriate considering my area is supposed to get 40cm of snow tonight

Oh sorry that was me who made this banner. I was having a CJ thunkfest making it too.
I meant to put on the PMs who made what so you could credit them but, urgh, I forgot. I'll have to PM out again so you can do so. Hope it's not too cold where you are!

Finally, a note about the look of the episode. I love the contrast between the cold, washed out blue of Teal'c's memories of his time in service to Apophis, verses the warm golden hues at the SGC where his "family" are trying to bring him back to them. And as he's flashing through his time with SG-1 the colors are again more vibrant and alive as Teal'c awakes to the realization of his true self.

Nice observation. You almost make me wish I'd kept the golden tones in the banner now.