Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[Lt.Colonel John Sheppard]

okay so i decided that i want to join you guys in this discussion thread so what's going on so far? you guys doing the re-watch again?

[Lt.Colonel John Sheppard]

was watching SGU's Episode Alliances (the episode where Homeworld Command was attacked by the Lucian Alliance) and i gotta tell you i was very disappointed that we didn't get one mention of Jack. I mean Homeworld Command is Jack's Command, he should've been there in that command post with Telford helping find that bomb. I mean a little mention in the episode of jack was doing would've made me happy. what do you think he was doing? do you think he was at home with Sam? do you think he was meeting with the president? what do you sam's reaction was when she heard that HWC was hit?

[hlndncr]

okay so i decided that i want to join you guys in this discussion thread so what's going on so far? you guys doing the re-watch again?

We are following along with the GateWorld Rewatch.

The episodes this week are:

Cold Lazarus
The Nox
Brief Candle
Thor's Hammer
The Torment of Tantalus

Watch the episodes anytime this week and comment on anything shippy (or otherwise) that you would like to discuss.

[hlndncr]

was watching SGU's Episode Alliances (the episode where Homeworld Command was attacked by the Lucian Alliance) and i gotta tell you i was very disappointed that we didn't get one mentioned of Jack. I mean Homeworld Command is Jack's Command, he should've been there in that command post with Telford helping find that bomb. I mean a little mention in the episode of jack was doing would've made me happy. what do you think he was doing? do you think he was at home with Sam? do you think he was meeting with the president? what do you sam's reaction was when she heard that HWC was hit?

I thought the same thing. Where was Jack?!

I have half-formed plot bunny in my head where Jack is trapped under the rubble and Sam can't get to him with the Asgard beam on the Hammond, and then she's sent away on an urgent mission before they find Jack, and Sam has to leave not knowing if he is alive. (I likes me my angst. )

[muziqaz]

I already mentioned this in other thread, but it seemed that in 1st couple of episodes Sam's voice was different. She sounded like with different accent, sounded like trying to be a tough guy. 1st noticed it in Emancipation throughout the episode and then again in Brief Candle. Only later on in the season she started to sound like a woman scientists rather than bad a&& warrior

[Lt.Colonel John Sheppard]

I thought the same thing. Where was Jack?!

I have half-formed plot bunny in my head where Jack is trapped under the rubble and Sam can't get to him with the Asgard beam on the Hammond, and then she's sent away on an urgent mission before they find Jack, and Sam has to leave not knowing if he is alive. (I likes me my angst. )

sounds like a good story i would love to have read if you decided to write it.

[hlndncr]

So I got behind on the GW Rewatch schedule. It goes by so fast. But I'm taking some time this weekend to get caught up.

Here's my new banner for CotG:

I've been debating between the original pilot and the rewatch, but I think I've finally decided that I prefer the original. The recut does improve the music, effects, and pacing, but it cuts out too many important character moments for my taste--especially the good S/J stuff.

There's only one S/J moment in the recut that's not in the original. At the end of the first briefing room scene Sam nods at Jack with a bit of a grin and he looks like he's tempted to smile at her, but he rolls his eyes instead. I think she was already getting under his skin.

I'm not one to believe that it was love at first sight with these two. But I do think Jack rather admires her spunk.

We often talk about how close Sam and Jack sit next to each other and how they turn into and mirror one another. One thing that I've noticed on this rewatch is that in the first few episodes they don't do that. For example, after they bring Daniel back from Abydos and they are sitting together at the briefing table Jack and Daniel are close to each other (demonstrating their established relationship) and Sam relatively far apart.

There are lots of little moments that show they are still trying to figure each other out. Like when Sam launches into her first technobabble (at the pyramid and then again at the briefing with Hammond) about steller drift. He just keeps looking at her like "What has George gotten me into?"

I think Jack keeps trying to get a rise out of her to see if he'll be able to get along with her. So when she introduces herself as Dr. to Daniel he mentions that she wanted to be called Capt. (and Daniel being the peacemaker that he is settles for calling her Capt. Dr.). Then when they first arrive on Chulak and he tells her Daniel's wife was a gift. (And wouldn't I love to see Sam actually confront Daniel on that!) Then in the re-cut when they are in prison Jack throws Hammond's line back at her when he says to not take it personally but the Gou'ald are way smarter than we are (ie even you). It's almost like he's showing a competitiveness or insecurity around her.

Meanwhile, she's doing her best to show him what a good soldier she is, like laying out the claymores. But he still doesn't trust her in action yet, sending her back to the SGC first and leaving Daniel there of all people to get everyone through. And she also looks shocked when Jack tells Hammond he wants Teal'c on the team. Clearly she doesn't know him very well just yet.

[hedwig]

There's a bit in the revised version in the cartouche room (or whatever it's called) with all the gate addresses. Sam is either standing next to Jack or she walks over to stand next to him, and he gives her one of those "up and down" looks as she's talking. It happens very quickly, and I had to rewind to watch it several times. I never saw that in the original version.

[hlndncr]

I've been trying to get caught up on the rewatch. I've been making some posts on the regular episode threads, but after being insulted for being a shipper on one of those threads the other day (I'm sure I'm not the only one who's had that experience) I thought I might make some comments and see if we could get some shippy discussion going here.

So I'll try and share a few of my thoughts on each ep so far and if anyone else would like to chime in I'd love to hear what you have to share.

[hlndncr]

The Enemy Within

I, like many shippers, love watching Sam and Jack sitting so close to each other in the briefing room. But this is only the second episode and it's very obvious that they don't have that kind of comfort with one another yet. Many times they aren't sitting or standing together. Later on you'll rarely see them apart.

But in this ep even in the briefing room seen where Jack reaches over and touches Sam's arm they aren't sitting particularly close and their body language is mostly turned away from one another. You can tell that the established relationship is between Jack and Daniel. And there is a definite division between scientists (Sam and Daniel) and warriors (Jack and Teal'c).

I know the touch between RDA and AT in the briefing room wasn't a part of the scene, but I'm glad it's there because it works for me as a nice character beat. Sam is still trying to prove herself and get Jack's respect. She even slaps Daniel on the shoulder at one point like we see Jack do and I wonder if she's not emulating him a little. Shortly thereafter she takes on Kawalsky, who is a superior officer and she didn't know at the time he was compromised. It would have taken some guts to confront him that way, and she gets knocked out as a result. I like to think that little touch was Jack's way of saying, "You did good Captain. Glad to have you back."

[hlndncr]

Emancipation

This is the point where I think Jack and Sam's relationship changed. No, I'm not saying they are in love at this point. I think this is where Jack sees Sam as someone he wants to have around instead of a woman and a scientist that's been thrown on his team against his better judgment.

At the very beginning of the episode when Abu says, "This is a woman." Jack responds, "Oh yeah." There are a couple of things I hear in his comment. First, yeah he's noticed. (Maybe remembering P3x-595?) But also that he still primarily thinks of her that way, like its even something of a nuisence having her around. That's why I think he enjoys sort of hazing her when he slaps her on the shoulder and tells her she is an anthropologist today, and later when he calls her Samantha and teases her about the dress.

In fact, I think seeing her in the dress just reinforces his discomfort with having her around. He acknowledges that she is a beautiful woman, but he'd rather just have her out of his hair. He may even think that it's OK to leave her behind in the tent because it's the safest place for her, and he doesn't have to deal with it all.

Of course, after she's taken he starts talking about how she's a member of his team and he gets all protective. Because I think he does like her (as a teammate, not yet something more) and he just hasn't let himself accept that yet. Once they have her back he's back to teasing her, but he does seem relieved.

Then we see how they still don't quite know how to relate to one another when Sam wants to save the girl from being stoned. Jack is hardened and practical, even though you get the feeling he doesn't like it. He knows as a leader he sometimes has to make hard choices. She's idealistic and rash. She doesn't trust him to do what's right and she tries to hit him where it hurts by pulling out the special forces motto on him. She doesn't know anything about Charlie yet, but the idea of a father killing his child has got to be killing him. You can tell he's not appreciating her lip.

Even so, he lets her fight, still not really knowing what she can do. But after she wins the fight he looks at her like he's seeing her in a whole new light. She's not all talk and technobabble. And maybe he's rethinking how she treats her as part of the team.

At the beginning of the episode Sam and Daniel have a minimum of personal space, while Jack and Sam keep a discreet distance from one another. At the end Jack gives Sam a little smile and they drift into one another's space as they walk to back to the gate. (Sam may be blaming Daniel a little for the dress. )

[hlndncr]

Broca Divide

So at the end of the last episode we saw Sam and Jack coming closer together, literally and figuratively. Now we begin in the briefing room with them sitting next to each other and looking oh so cozy. See.

Sam and Daniel have moved a little apart and Jack and Sam are drifting closer. Jack seems to be hamming it up a little and he's clearly aware that she finds it amusing. You can see that they have acclimated to one another. Jack is letting his gaurd down and you can feel that frission of attraction between them. No wonder we find them wrestling in the locker room later on.

We hear Jack call her Samantha again when he starts whumping on Daniel. (First he mentions that he got into a wrestling match with Carter. You think he considers that better than arm wrestling? ) Interesting that much later on when Sam imagines having a personal conversation with him in Grace he calls her Samantha.

After all is said and done Sam tries to apologize and seems rather embaressed. When Jack mentions his concern over her wound she looks surprised, then he teases her. At first she looks annoyed by his tank top remark but then lets it go. She's loosening up some and maybe also realizes it's his way of showing that he has accepted her. For Jack's part, he may still be feeling some of that attraction and is covering it with humor. Even this early on, their relationship is becoming much more complicated.

[hlndncr]

First Commandment

Sam sure seems to like older men. Although Hanson does seem a little too old to just be a captain (same rank as Sam). And I really have to wonder how he got command of his own team. But do you think Sam's preference shows a bit of a daddy complex?

So at the beginning Jack tries to send Sam back to the SGC. Maybe some lingering doubts that she can handle what may have to be done? She says she's prepared for it, but is she really?

At the beginning we get this "subtle" comparison between Jonas and Jack but the moment between Jack and Sam at the end shows us where these two men really differ in essentials. Jack sees Sam is distressed and takes her aside. He shows that he understands what he lost in doing some necessary but "distasteful" things as a part of his job. I think he knows that eventually Sam is going to have to travel at least some way down that road herself, but he wants to spare her as much as he can. That little shared smile they have at the end of the conversation is sweet; it's the beginning of a real friendship between them.

[hlndncr]

Cold Lazarus

While this is largely a Jack episode, what I like best is the Sam/Daniel scenes. First I love how they are like two kids playing with their new science project in their dad's basement (and then they get Teal'c in trouble for blowing things up ). You can see how close they are.

Jack is still an enigma to Sam at this point. She knows nothing about him personally. But she keeps trying to make a connection. So when she sees "Jack" looking at pictures in the locker room she tries to get him to talk about his family by sharing stories of her own. Then she starts fishing for informaiton from Daniel. I think this is all really innocent at this point. But she really seems to want to know him and understand him.

As for Jack and Sara, I'm of the opinion that they did not have a solid marriage when Charlie died. I feel like from the things Sara was saying to alien!Jack that there were already cracks in the foundation. I really never got how this episode was supposed to be closure for this relationship, but I'm glad that it was because I don't see Jack going back to Sara.

[hlndncr]

The Nox

The thing that strikes me about Jack and Sam's relationship at this point is how democratic his leadership style has become. When they start planning to take Apophis he looks to make sure everyone is on board and he turns to Sam for her opinion. I think they've really come a long way in trusting one another and they are developing a good professional rhythm.