Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[VSS]

Rachel, I think you're giving Jack a lot more credit for his conversational ability than he deserves!

I don't think he's quite that functional.

All we've ever seen out of these two are disjointed half-conversations, and Jack cutting short most of Sam's attempts at those. Because of what's left unsaid, these oblique conversations seem to screw them up more often than not. In my opinion, they're not capable of having any kind of understanding prior to Threads- (except in my personal version of canon where Jack had seventy-three tries at it in WoO before he finally succeeded. But then, of course, Sam never knew and that's why she seemed to be so uncertain and he seemed content to wait it out).

Well, that's the fun of writing fanfic in our heads! No one's right or wrong.



But I do think that your point #5 in the post preceding this last one is right on the money. It's not just the regs, it's the fear, too.

[Rachel500]

Rachel, I think you're giving Jack a lot more credit for his conversational ability than he deserves!

I don't think he's quite that functional.

All we've ever seen out of these two are disjointed half-conversations, and Jack cutting short most of Sam's attempts at those. I don't think they're capable of having any kind of understanding prior to Threads (except in my mind where Jack had seventy-three tries at it in WoO.)

But I do think that your point #5 in the post preceding this last one is right on the money. It's not just the regs, it's the fear, too.

I think Jack doesn't get enough credit sometimes for being able to communciate. When he has to, when it's important and when he wants to he can communicate very effectively. It's just very rare that on a personal level he wants to communicate.

I guess I see oblique conversations as falling into the 'when he has to' category because it's got to the point where something has to be said (the conversation they have at the end of D&C is very like this - they do have to talk about what has happened), and him making some attempt but where nothing is said openly, it's all allusion but where they both get the subtext.

But I never see Jack saying 'Sam, I need to discuss this thing between us...'

THAT would never happen.

[VSS]

I think Jack doesn't get enough credit sometimes for being able to communciate. When he has to, when it's important and when he wants to he can communicate very effectively. It's just very rare that on a personal level he wants to communicate.

I guess I see oblique conversations as falling into the 'when he has to' category because it's got to the point where something has to be said (the conversation they have at the end of D&C is very like this - they do have to talk about what has happened), and him making some attempt but where nothing is said openly, it's all allusion but where they both get the subtext.

But I never see Jack saying 'Sam, I need to discuss this thing between us...'

THAT would never happen.

Jack does get a bad reputation for communication, and I agree that's not true. He can talk about many things very well, just not his deepest feelings. That's one thing I learned from the season 1 rewatch- he's really very, very poor at that.

I do think he wanted to talk to Sara, but couldn't. Likewise, when Kawalsky was literally on his death bed, he couldn't. But he'll say whatever he wants to at other times, and is often out of line because of it.

I think that's what the difference in our perspectives is- to me the "when he has to" only occurs twice in the entire eight years- during D & C and Threads.

[Rachel500]

Jack does get a bad reputation for communication, and I agree that's not true. He can talk about many things very well, just not his deepest feelings. That's one thing I learned from the season 1 rewatch- he's really very, very poor at that.

I do think he wanted to talk to Sara, but couldn't. Likewise, when Kawalsky was literally on his death bed, he couldn't. But he'll say whatever he wants to at other times, and is often out of line because of it.

I think that's what the difference in our perspectives is- to me the "when he has to" only occurs twice in the entire eight years- during D & C and Threads.

Oh I agree that Jack struggles to express his emotions as well as he wants to when he wants to communicate (or indeed if he has to).

I guess I see S1 Jack's inability to communicate differently.

With Kawalsky Jack didn't want to talk about the possibility of dying; he wanted to keep Kawalsky thinking positively - talking about how scared Kawalsky was, of the realness of it, would have meant in Jack's eyes telling Kawalsky that he thought Kawalsky was going to die too. I also do think that with blokes there is more of a tendency to make light/brush off of any revelation of feelings between them unless they're in the 'I love you I do' drunk stage.

With Sara, I don't think Jack wanted to talk to Sara - I think he'd wanted to one point (after the first Abydos mission only to find her gone when he came back) - knew he should have talked to her - but that there was nothing more to say by Cold Lazarus. He loved her; would always love her on some level and regret how it ended, but he knew it was over. In Brief Candle I think he was writing to her to say some form of a goodbye (because it was still likely she was the recipient of his will at that point), maybe even some form of an apology given that she hadn't really heard it from him but from an alien, but I think it's telling he never got further than her name.

For me, Jack does try to express his feelings for Sam in BTS - and that's an example of when he wants to and when he thinks its important (because he wants to reassure and comfort her), he'll do it. Yes, it may not be the most eloquent; it's likely to be slightly stumbling and clumsy; but the sentiment will be there and Sam will *get* it.

[EvenstarSRV]

It's just a complicated situation for both of them. Maybe not for your average adult but like I said a while back, they're:

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/j...tos/dweebs.jpg

(picture by Sarai, text by me)

LOL! Nice pic and caption!

Evenstar - I agree that Jack wouldn't want Sam to give up her career *for him* - if she said she were giving up to have a different life (which just so happened to include him) then I think he probably wouldn't fight her on it.

I see Sam as career military through and through, so I guess I'd need her to have a very good reason to choose a life outside of the Air Force, whether it included Jack or not.

I wonder if part of what prevents the conversation is the fear of changing the dynamics of the relationship. If the conversation goes south, how is that going to affect the team, the working relationship yada yada yada? It's kind of crazy how they take insane risks with their lives on a regular basis but play it safe when it comes to the emotional stuff.

Well, they're trained to take and handle risking their lives, so I can see them compensating by playing it safe in other areas. And when it comes to emotional stuff I think VSS's pic kinda says it all.

They think they're avoiding a discussion because of the regs, because it would impact their career choices, because it would impact the team and the mission...and to some extent that's true but really as VSS says, they're really avoiding the discussion because they're emotional dweebs.

I will say I think both had times when they were 'open' to discussions individually but those times are when they're not on the same page and those are the moments where they did have a 'missed' opportunity. But really, in the scheme of things what happened was they ended up at a point where both were emotionally ready to be together so perhaps it was for the best.

Well said, and I agree on most points. And I really don't think they would have been able to resolved all those issues, esp the mission, until Threads when the Goa'uld and Replicators were no longer imminent threats to Earth.

[josiane]

On whether Sam and Jack ever talked about things:

I guess I'm in the middle here between Cags and VSS on the one hand and Rachel on the other (although that makes it sound like you're in much more disagreement than you are!). I don't buy it in fics when they have long heartfelt conversations about their feelings and their situation and make explicit promises to one another about the future. But I do agree with what Rachel says about there being some kind of acknowledgement passing between them in the gap between Nemesis and Small Victories - there's just too much of a difference in their attitudes to one another and it's the only explanation I can come up with - that something happened while they were trapped offworld. But I think (also like Rachel) that it was much like the other 'conversations' we see - rather brief and oblique, but enough for both of them to entirely understand what was going on, ie that these feelings they have become aware of are not unrequited but that neither of them is going to do anything about them for all the reasons Rachel so splendidly described

[Zoser]

even season 9 and 10 episodes wow.

There is no season 9 or 10.

[Lt.Colonel John Sheppard]

On whether Sam and Jack ever talked about things:

I guess I'm in the middle here between Cags and VSS on the one hand and Rachel on the other (although that makes it sound like you're in much more disagreement than you are!). I don't buy it in fics when they have long heartfelt conversations about their feelings and their situation and make explicit promises to one another about the future. But I do agree with what Rachel says about there being some kind of acknowledgement passing between them in the gap between Nemesis and Small Victories - there's just too much of a difference in their attitudes to one another and it's the only explanation I can come up with - that something happened while they were trapped offworld. But I think (also like Rachel) that it was much like the other 'conversations' we see - rather brief and oblique, but enough for both of them to entirely understand what was going on, ie that these feelings they have become aware of are not unrequited but that neither of them is going to do anything about them for all the reasons Rachel so splendidly described

true and plus in the fan fics they have jack calling Sam "Sam" or "Carter" Even if something happened after threads i don't think Jack could call Sam "Sam" after calling her "Carter" for so long. i mean the last time he called Our Sam "sam" was in Serpent's Song. and in POV he called AU Sam "Sam" cause he wanted to comfort her.

[Cagranosalis]

Sorry this is a day late. I tried to post it last night but...ack, GW gremlins struck!

Anyhoo:

Synposis:

SG-1 gate to a planet where a UAV has detected a village 11 kilometres from the gate. They go to the village to discover a culture of medieval Christianity. In the village, a young lady named Mary is chained up. The release her and her partner (I assume) called Simon offers them hospitality and explains that Mary has demons inside her and thus is being sacrificed. In fact Mary simply has chicken pox but the village's fearful canon (religious leader type) has the power to chose who is sacrificed and who isn't. While they are talking the "demon" comes and it turns out it's an Unas, hosting goa'uld, who demands 5 souls to be handed over to him by sunrise. Jack is all for taking the unas on and at first it seems simple enough - kill the unas, get the locals to bury their gate - everyone lives happily ever after. However, not long after this the village's canon returns. He is suspicious of SG-1 and unconvinced by their declaration of good intentions. He uses a fancy ring device thing to knock out SG-1. Daniel, Sam and Jack wake up in a cell chained up but Teal'c is "tested" to see if he is a demon. When he fails the first test, he is given another - weighted down and thrown into water where he, supposedly drowns. Simon meanwhile has petitioned for the remainder of SG-1 to be allowed to return to the gate and go home and tells SG-1 the only way to save Mary from the demon now is by trepanning (drilling a bloody great hole in her head). Daniel protests and tells Jack (who is unsurprisingly reluctant) that he's going to help these people at least to stop the trepanning. Jack just wants to go home but reluctantly goes with Daniel to Mary and Simon’s dwelling. Whilst there Teal'c - whose symbiote has cleverly managed to sustain him under water - revives and is reunited with SG-1. The canon, furious at this chains all of them, plus Mary to the sacrificial post in the village centre as the next batch of sacrifices for when the unas returns.
Next morning the unas comes to collect his offerings, taking them all back towards the gate. they manage to escape him and are chased. The unas recaptures them, staking their chain to a tree. At this point Simon, who seems to have grown some balls overnight, finds them and he shoots the unas a few times with Teal'c’s staff, mortally wounding it but is hurt himself. He runs off and he and the unas encounter the canon. Simon is knocked out and so, seemingly is the canon. Meanwhile SG-1 are able to free themselves and Mary - Daniel and Sam heading back to the gate whilst Teal'c and Jack head off to finish the job. When Jack and Teal'c catch up with Simon they find him unconscious, the unas dead and the canon just coming around and repentant having "seen the light" and had an amazing turn about of opinion. Simon also comes round and they head to the gate promising to bury it after SG-1 go through. Sam is just starting to dial the gate when she senses the presence of a goa'uld in the canon. His hand forced, the goa'uld reveals himself and is shot dead by Jack. Presumably the villagers do bury their gate after them.


Favourite line:
(lines since I can't pick just one)

Jack: "Ah trees, trees and more trees. What a wonderfully green universe we live in, aye.

And "Carter, if I ever get the urge to help anyone again, feel free to give me a swift kick"

And later: "Major, If Daniel ever gets the urge to help anyone again, feel free to shoot him."



Favourite moment:

The Dr Evil finger to the mouth after this comment and Sam's laugh. It's just such a lovely natural moment that completely belies the drama that is about to unfold.


Review:

SG-1 vary rarely tackled the whole Christian religion during the first eight years and this was quite a stand out episode because of that. I think they did a reasonable job of telling a good story without demonising the religion - if you think about it they have more or less completely demonised most of the ancient religions and mythologies in some way, particularly Egyptian.
I like this episode because it does respect the source material.
Even in a world where it seems black and white to our guys - i.e. kill the unas bury the gate, live happily ever after - there's a lovely scene in the middle when Daniel is talking to the canon and the canon asks him what he would do rather than sacrifice people. Daniel doesn’t have an answer of course, because the truth is, regardless of the fact the canon is bad/power hungry person, the fact is if nobody took the lead and made the sacrifices happen then the whole village would be in jeopardy. Again there’s a whole grey area there that, sadly, the episode doesn’t really have a chance to explore.


General observations:

Jack is often touted (in fanon anyway) and being catholic (not sure it it's ever on a prop anywhere?) and his name and connection to Chicago suggest Irish Catholic roots, however here he is fairly flippant about the bible and religion in general, and no more so than here so one has to wonder whether he had any structured religious education at all.

Jack is especially quippy in this episode, even at times when there's a lot of peril. I had a really hard time picking one favourite line from them all.

Jack's first instinct is to intervene and fight the Unas, thus freeing the people. He doesn’t negotiate or question whether he should interfere with their way of life. Daniel doesn’t disagree or argue against interfering in their culture so it's good to see them on the same page. This was something that became quite rare in later seasons. Later in the episode after Teal'c "dies" Jack's far less interested in getting involved and just wants to leave them to their fate; whether that's a grief reaction over Teal'c's "death", some kind of way of punishing them, or if he is just respecting their wishes I don't know. At this point though, Daniel wants to save Mary. Jack doesn't but Daniel is doing it whether Jack likes it or not so Jack sort of rolls his eyes and shakes his head then follows him.

How often throughout the series does Jack call Daniel, Danny? Not often but here's one example at the start when they get to the village.

The music, and actually the set up with the girl chained up in the village are very reminiscent of the set up Daniel and Vala encounter when we first stumble across the Ori / priors at the start of S9. Actually that should probably be the other way round since this episode came first.

The scene where Teal'c is tested and eventually "killed" is really powerful. The reactions all round as he's thrown in the water are so heartfelt. I never noticed the little tear in Sam's eye before or Daniel's frustration. And Jack just looks utterly defeated.
Notably this is the point most people cite as the moment Jack gets the injury that leaves him with his eyebrow scar but actually, on re-watching, he has a faint scar there even before he is struck. I’m not sure if that's because of order of filming (i.e. they shaved it ready to apply the make up for the cut and filmed these scenes out of order) or if that's a very subtle nod to the fact he probably already had a smallish scar there from at least one previous knock to the same area.

Why doesn't Teal'c immediately sense the Goa'uld in the canon after it leaves the unas host? Both previously (Need) and later on in the series (The Tomb) we see Teal'c can sense goa'uld in a similar way that Sam can and he was much closer to the canon before this than Sam was when she sensed it.



Shippy observations:

There's very little here so forgive me if I pick through crumbs for you:

The first thing is Sam's cute little laugh at Jack's Doctor Evil impression at the start. See not really shippy but she laughs and Daniel - who is right there too - doesn't.

Framing: Again, lots here, particularly at the start when they are walking towards the village and observing it. It's almost always Jack then Sam, or Sam then Jack, often with a small gap between them and the other two. Later on, there's also scenes where they are grouped together slightly away from the others.

At the end when Sam is convinced the goa'uld is in the canon, Jack asks Sam if she's sure and seems to trust her implicitly.


Implications to the ship.

You'd be hard pushed to find any, really, in this episode.

[slurredspeech]

On whether Sam and Jack ever talked about things:

...

But I do agree with what Rachel says about there being some kind of acknowledgement passing between them in the gap between Nemesis and Small Victories - there's just too much of a difference in their attitudes to one another and it's the only explanation I can come up with - that something happened while they were trapped offworld.

Heh. See, the part I bolded is actually the very reason I think there's little chance they had an 'acknowledging' conversation. (I've seen it work lovely in fics, mind you, and there I can totally buy it, if it's done well.) However, when it comes to whether I think it actually happened on the show without us getting to see it, then I would have to opt for no.
It's very true their attitude towards each other is very different to earlier seasons. Both in the finale of S3 and then continuing in the S4 opener, they're uncharacteristically playful and flirty, which -- definitely a change in behaviour. One that dies down after their feelings get dragged out of them and into the open (only to resurface in S7 and moreso in S8 - The Flirty Season, as I like to call it - when Carter gets a boyfriend and the tampon zone of sorts is established that allows her to be more playful with him; and vice versa).
IMHO, had they at that point (S3/4) acknowledged their feelings outside of their confuzzled little hearts, I don't think they would have acted the way they did; both because of their careers that you all so wonderfully analyzed, as well as all the other issues this would require them to deal with, if only internally. Rather, I see them being more careful around each other, more guarded, analyzing even the smallest of gestures in fear of it being too much, too obvious, too scary, too serious and 'Have I got I HEART THE COLONEL written on my forehead?'


I do think they'd gotten closer while stranded on that planet between seasons; more relaxed with each other. A week (is that right, a week?) of compulsory vacation, no SGC, and plenty of attraction; the (flexible) Flirting Line of Nemesis got pushed further. Because, why not? 'I like him. A lot, actually, as I've learned in 100 Days.' and 'It's not like it's anything serious, it's not like he (really, really) likes me back.' and 'She turned down my fishing invitation. Plus, she's Carter. Falling for her CO? So not gonna happen. A guy can dream though, right. Nothin wrong with that. Nope! Not a thing.' So, yeah. They were both aware of the other's flirtatious attitude, but I think both dismissed it as just that (in regards to the other person), while crossing their fingers and toes their own pesky feelings would be proven to be nothing more than a crush on the attractive co-worker. And crushes are temporary. They pass. This will pass. Right? Right?

And so it flowed, that river in Egypt. Right up until the force field smacked them over their heads.

Disclaimer: This post brought to you by 4 hours sleep. May contain incoherent language and nonsensical explanations of one's opinion.

[Nynaeve506]

Jack is often touted (in fanon anyway) and being catholic (not sure it it's ever on a prop anywhere?) and his name and connection to Chicago suggest Irish Catholic roots, however here he is fairly flippant about the bible and religion in general, and no more so than here so one has to wonder whether he had any structured religious education at all.

I think it's partly because of where he's from (as you pointed out). Living in Minnesota (and for the record, I'm not native to this part of the country) - you're Catholic or Lutheran (those are the largest influences up here). I think people also see "O'Neill" and assume Catholic :: shrugs :: and as it usually goes, it's generally the easiest denomination to use in stories (it doesn't require understanding the theological nuances of each individual denomination - my husband is studying to be a pastor, so I sort of know a bunch about a lot of different theologies).

My guess is that he probably went through some sort of confirmation and then sort of just dropped it when he got old enough to ditch (which is pretty typical). He probably just doesn't remember any of his training y'know?

Why doesn't Teal'c immediately sense the Goa'uld in the canon after it leaves the unas host? Both previously (Need) and later on in the series (The Tomb) we see Teal'c can sense goa'uld in a similar way that Sam can and he was much closer to the canon before this than Sam was when she sensed it.

Wait - did Sam sense the Goa'uld in the canon? I was going to suggest that perhaps the symbiote didn't have naquadah, but it's been a long time since I've watched the episode.

On the religion note:

It's difficult for me sometimes to watch sci-fi as I often dislike how religion, specifically Christianity, gets portrayed. Granted in this one is was less Christianity and more medieval superstition but even when the Ori come I had a hard time not feeling like there was a small backhanded jab... I guess because as someone who's incredibly analytical, who loves math and science to death and yet is also incredibly devout (Bible memorization, regular church attendance, is one of those weirdos who thinks Christ saves people), I don't have any sort of conflict - my faith is rational (a la John Calvin, Martin Luther, Frances Schaeffer, C.S. Lewis, John Piper, etc) - if it weren't, I wouldn't believe it. I don't do "mystical"...

But that's neither here nor there, I suppose. I've always thought of Jack and Sam as more agnostic than anything - open to possibilities, but not really having a faith in anything. IF there were going to be religious leanings I think I'd find Jack more likely to have them only because I think he'd find it almost unbearable to contemplate that Charlie is dead, the end. Although I suppose one could say the same for Sam concerning the loss of her mother.

[slurredspeech]

Jack is often touted (in fanon anyway) and being catholic (not sure it it's ever on a prop anywhere?)...

Military ID in... I want to say Entity? I do believe it was shown on the show at some point, for both him and Sam (also Roman Catholic, if I'm not mistaken).

I agree with Twilight - don't really see him as being devout, even if he was born into Catholicism.

Granted in this one is was less Christianity and more medieval superstition but even when the Ori come I had a hard time not feeling like there was a small backhanded jab...

Being a Catholic myself (though not devout) I always felt like what they were jabbing at were fundamentalists of any stripe, and the extreme and intolerant teachings and hypocrisy it inevitably entails. I have to admit I followed the Ori storyline with only one eye on the screen (for reasons having nothing to do with religion) so there could be a dig at Christianity there that I missed; but I got the impression it was more directed at extremists in general, rather than one religion in particular.

[Nynaeve506]

Military ID in... I want to say Entity? I do believe it was shown on the show at some point, for both him and Sam (also Roman Catholic, if I'm not mistaken).

I agree with Twilight - don't really see him as being devout, even if he was born into Catholicism.



Being a Catholic myself (though not devout) I always felt like what they were jabbing at were fundamentalists of any stripe, and the extreme and intolerant teachings and hypocrisy it inevitably entails. I have to admit I followed the Ori storyline with only one eye on the screen (for reasons having nothing to do with religion) so there could be a dig at Christianity there that I missed; but I got the impression it was more directed at extremists in general, rather than one religion in particular.

And I would agree which is why I didn't stop watching, I realize I tend to be more sensitive than most people (probably because I hold some very not popular view points and if you judged me solely on what I believed you'd probably think I was a nut job) - because while my views are very narrow, they are very well thought out and so I guess I bristle a little because I've worked so hard to be articulate about what I believe.

So I'll just hang out in my little corner of the world LOL

[Lt.Colonel John Sheppard]

something's been eating at me for quite sometime. Just how did Jack O'Neill get offered the job of HomeWorld Security? i mean was after they got back going fishing at the end of moebius or what?

[Alan]

something's been eating at me for quite sometime. Just how did Jack O'Neill get offered the job of HomeWorld Security? i mean was after they got back going fishing at the end of moebius or what?

OT:

Spoiler:

Presumably the late-George Hammond had retired between Seasons 8 and 9 and so with Jack being the next highest ranking officer attached to the SGC with the most experience, he's the most logical person to get the job as the Head of HomeWorld Security.

...

Bringing it back on-topic...and presumably with that advancement Sam was no-longer part of his chain of command and so they were able to advance in their relationship too.