Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[Nynaeve506]

Realistically - which is a word you have use loose and fast with SG-1 - more experienced officers are going to fly a desk. AF tends to use Majors/Lt.Cols for front line and Cols for the desks...

So Lucy, you're right, why would they risk her on this?

In the Stargate universe (where they don't follow "the usual") it probably offers a chance at a helpful alliance. Remember, Earth is at a serious disadvantage and what Warrick is offering is fairly significant technology...

[Lucycat]

Good point. But don't you think this applies to a lot of other episodes too? I've been dicussing this with my friends before. Should/would the Air Force endanger their indispensable scientists in front-line teams?

The case gets even more complicated with Carter, because she is a soldier and a scientist. She has to make a decision and it's clear (as we watch her career progress) that she chooses the military path to command. We see her eventually take over for O'neill and leave a lot of the science-y stuff to Dr. Lee and later, with McKay on Atlantis. So, for her to achieve command she needs the field experience. In this vein, I think it an acceptable risk for her to go out and explore and defend the Earth against hostile forces. I just didn't think that was the case in Space Race. O'neill and Daniel were in diplomatic talks. There was no threat to Earth, and I don't think the risk of her life in that race was worth a look at an advanced engine design. Just my opinion!!

And yes it's just a TV show, and it probably wouldn't happen if such a thing was possible in the real Air Force.

[Lilac736]

You're absolutely right, Sam is a soldier and a scientist. So she at least is able to protect herself. McKay on the other hand isn't even able to handle a gun, he is a liability to his team. So for me there is definitely a difference between these two.
The problem I have with this is that both Sam as well as McKay are the most brilliant minds on earth. They are irreplaceable. You know I really love Jack and I know he's a brilliant strategist, but there are a ton of other guys who could do his job. That's the difference, for me. Especially in the early seasons when Sam is the top expert regarding everthing Gate related.
I know it's a TV show, but you know "suspension of disbelief"...

[Fluffy17]

(Sorry – don’t have the sig)

Avenger 2.0

Avenger is a stand alone comedy episode re-introducing Felger, a hapless scientist last seen in The Other Guys. He’s a brilliant scientist but a bit rash. He’s also completely captivated/obsessed by Sam, or should we really say “Major Carter because I don’t think he calls her Sam? We see a scene where he’s kissing Sam in the gateroom after being awarded a medal because he saved their lives in the The Other Guys. Obviously it’s a dream. He has an assistant - Chloe, who loves him and generally takes the mick about his obsession with SG1.

He’s been working on new weapon, and wants to show Sam. Unfortunately it blows up and he’s threatened with dismissal by Hammond unless he can think of something else. He has an idea, a virus that can shut down A Stargate, and Sam is ordered to help him. Well it all goes extremely pear-shaped and the whole gate network is closed down except for the SGC, this is because it doesn’t have a DHD. This is because the information has been uploaded by the whole network. Daniel is off-world on a planet with volcano problems, Jack & Teal’c are off-world trying to negotiate a deal with some rebel Jaffa. Both get stuck.

Sam goes round to see him at his flat, he’s working on a model of the Stargate and has a Barbie Carter. In his haste to open the door he puts his trousers on backwards. He’s very insecure, his mother rings him and asks how things are going, Sam appears and he pretends he’s talking to Coombs, from the “The Other Guys”.

They try uploading a new programme from the SGC but it doesn’t work. He cracks under the strain and leaves the SGC. Sam finds him and he’s in a state of panic. They work out that the virus exists within a very specific sub-routine of the original target DHD on P5S-117. They decide that if they can go to that planet, reboot the system, all should be fine. It’s one of Ba’als but there’s no choice.

Felger bravely offers to go alone, but Hammond advises Sam should go with. After a hug & a kiss from Chloe, he goes. On arrival at the planet, Sam leaves Felger to work on changing the sub-routine. They discover that although the complete shut-down of the gate system is Ba’als fault. He has more ships so this gives him an edge. They are discovered and are under attack by Jaffa. Luckily an Alkesh appears and mows down the Jaffa. The ring transporter appears and its Jack & Teal’c, they couldn’t wait apparently….. Felger tries hugging Jack, bless him, not his most brilliant idea. But he worships Jack as well.

Sam and Felger return, ambiguously avoiding comments about how Jack’s getting back. We’re next in Felgers lab, Felger is kissing Chloe, and Sam & Jack walk in. Sam is annoyed and asks why he’s taken “up with this trollop”. A fight between the two women ensues. Felger tries to stop it but Jack says no! We can then hear Chloe asking Felger what he’s thinking about.

As to the ship…

Well there’s the hug at the beginning when Sam & Jack are in the lab, not so much hug as Sam jumps behind Jack and grabs him. This is because that explosion wasn’t supposed to happen and Amanda was surprised by it. In the commentary Amanda talks about Sam’s undying love for Jack but in a very light-hearted way. Jack’s worried that she’s going off to a dodgy planet with Felger, and of course the fantasy thing.

[hlndncr]

Thanks for doing the review Fluffy. I'll be back to comment later.

Just FYI, if anyone needs episode banners they are all available here.

[josiane]

Thanks for stepping in to do the Avenger 2.0 review, Fluffy!

I have one thing to say about the ship in that episode - Jack steals an alkesh and flies it halfway across the galaxy to rescue Sam. Yeah.

I really like this ep, not quite as much as I love The Other Guys, but I do like it a lot. And I think in amongst all the Felger stuff, we get a good insight into Sam's personality too - I love how she takes Felger under her wing, almost. She clearly feels sorry for him, but also just as clearly sees potential in him. And. after all, it ends up being her screw-up too.

I also like how Sam ends up being forced a little into Jack's role here, as she has to deal with a scientisty scientist and she has to keep the military side up, as it were.

[Lucycat]

Avenger 2.0
I liked Felger and Coombs' adventure in the Season 6 episode, "The Other Guys". It was fun, and gave the spotlight to two regular guys and made them into heroes. Jack was also really hot (and funny) in that episode, so that added to the appeal (for me!)

Perhaps it is the lack of Jack that had me not like Avenger 2.0 as much. But I digress....

Felger is a bumbling, star-struck scientist who idolizes Jack and pines after Carter. It's supposed to be comedy and possibly endearing, but he just comes across as incompetent and pathetic, imo. His idea of a computer virus that takes over DHDs, however, is enough to interest Carter, so she vouches for him and works with him and Chole on it.

The disastrous consequences of the experiment is something we rarely see, especially from the hands of Carter. And she shares the blame when O'neill wants to blame it all on Felger, as she should. Here we are witness to the fact that she is not infallible, which is a refreshing change.

Despite the horrendous mistake, everything is put to rights in the end. Daniel is able to evacuate the refugees and Jack got a new teltac. All is shiny in the world for Felger, too, because he obviously didn't lose his job, has a new girlfriend and an active imagination.

Very pat... Hit the RESET button everyone!

I LOVED the opening scene, when Jack and Sam were there to witness the new weapon Felger was working on. Very shippy!

Cool seeing soldier Sam, shooting the Jaffa with her new gun, bullet casings flying everywhere.

[hedwig]

Avenger 2.0

Cool seeing soldier Sam, shooting the Jaffa with her new gun, bullet casings flying everywhere.

This is the scene that in a cute behind-the-scenes clip, AT/Sam laughingly refers to herself as "Stargate Barbie"!

[Rachel500]

Avenger

Generally

I hate Felger as a character. It's another one of those moments where I look at the episode and wonder why anyone thought it was a good idea to bring that particular character back.

Conversely I wouldn't have minded an episode with Coombs (who was bumbling but not incompetent) or an episode focused more on the 'lower ranks' again. I still plan some time on writing a fic where Walter and Siler save the day.

Anyway, my original watching experience was very coloured by my hatred of Felger and my disappointment that they're splitting the team up! AGAIN!!

And that was pretty much it. Since then, I have come to appreciate the episode for other things...namely...

Sam and Jack

The scene at the beginning where really it is AT grabbing onto and jumping slightly behind RDA because they didn't expect the weapon to spark quite so much is cute, but I much prefer the big shippy moment that Jack secures an Alkesh and rides to her rescue, knowing she'll need back-up and hating the idea that she's on one of Ba'al's planets alone except for Felger who he doesn't trust to tie his own shoelaces never mind back-up the woman he loves. It must have been an angsty time for Jack from the moment he finds out where Sam is from Hammond to the moment he turns up just in time. I'm pretty certain who he'd rather have had hugging him.

Also meant to say, what I do like is that we do Sam effectively in "leader" mode with Felger and she does a good job of supporting him and encouraging him.

[Aveo_amacus]

Avenger

Generally

I hate Felger as a character. It's another one of those moments where I look at the episode and wonder why anyone thought it was a good idea to bring that particular character back.

Conversely I wouldn't have minded an episode with Coombs (who was bumbling but not incompetent) or an episode focused more on the 'lower ranks' again. I still plan some time on writing a fic where Walter and Siler save the day.

Anyway, my original watching experience was very coloured by my hatred of Felger and my disappointment that they're splitting the team up! AGAIN!!

And that was pretty much it. Since then, I have come to appreciate the episode for other things...namely...

Sam and Jack

The scene at the beginning where really it is AT grabbing onto and jumping slightly behind RDA because they didn't expect the weapon to spark quite so much is cute, but I much prefer the big shippy moment that Jack secures an Alkesh and rides to her rescue, knowing she'll need back-up and hating the idea that she's on one of Ba'al's planets alone except for Felger who he doesn't trust to tie his own shoelaces never mind back-up the woman he loves. It must have been an angsty time for Jack from the moment he finds out where Sam is from Hammond to the moment he turns up just in time. I'm pretty certain who he'd rather have had hugging him.

Also meant to say, what I do like is that we do Sam effectively in "leader" mode with Felger and she does a good job of supporting him and encouraging him.

Totally with you Rachel! I hated Felger as a character, not my type of humour *at* all. I cringe even thinking about some of the Felger-scenes. He was just far too inept and didn't process his ideas or rationalise anything. There was a little too much 'science geek' for me. Definitely not my choice of character to bring back, but I know most don't agree with me on that!

Jack sailing in to save the day was a definite high point, both from a S/J point of view and ep overall

[Akamaimom]

I must be one of the weird people that like Felger. I even used him in a story I wrote once. I enjoy that kind of schticky comedy, though, and Avenger is one of those episodes that I really like. I, too, like the little jump in the beginning towards Jack, and I love that Jack steals the ship at the end (presumably) and goes to get Sam first. You know, because she's the one he's really worried about. I love the Stargate Barbie line, too.

And one thing that I've always thought is that Sam working with Felger is like Jack working with Sam, on a strange level. She might have some more insight, now, on what it's like for Jack to work with her--since their minds work so differently, since working with Felger might be so odd for her. It could make her understand Jack's reactions to her a little better. Just a thought.

[hlndncr]

Avenger

Generally:

I liked The Other Guys and I didn't mind Felger in that one, but maybe that was because I thought the Coombs character provided a nice balance and even Felger was slightly more competent. In this ep I just thought they took everything too far.

The other problem I have with this ep is that while it could ostensibly be called a Sam ep, she wasn't even in it all that much. This was SG1 without SG1. (Did Teal'c even have a line?)

One thing that can be said is that I think it addresses the issue some were talking about before about the team's experience being so valuable, and would be utilized less for dangerous frontline missions and more for training and assistance. Granted they still allowed Sam to risk herself on a suicidal mission, but we do see that the team's experience is being utilized to assist other teams, participate in joint operations with our allies, and work on other priorities and projects going on at the SGC. It's a glimpse into the wider world of the SGC and how our team isn't just doing their own missions anymore. They are too valuable to remain an insular unit and each member appears to have broader responsibilities at this point.

Sam and Jack
I put up with this episode because I do like the ship that's both shown and implied, and I agree with all that has been said.

Sam drags Jack along to see Felger's new weapon. What I find interesting is that it appears that all she told Jack before hand was that it was important. She doesn't explain what Felger's working on until they get there. This says to me that he trusts her judgment of what is an important use of his time, and he's even willing to spend time in the science labs on her say so. (And maybe knowing it was Felger, he also anticpated some kind of trouble. ) Sam gets just the reaction I think she was going for when she tells him it's essentially a big honkin' space gun and he gets all excited at the idea of phasers for the 302s.

Then when he and Teal'c head out he really wants her to come with them. Maybe he was a little concerned about her safety ("don't forget your safety glasses") working with Felger, but at the time he really thought she'd just be hanging out in a lab. I think he just likes having her with him and he isn't thrilled about her choosing sciency stuff over him (like in The Light when Daniel convinced her to visit the sparkly space palace instead of hanging out on base or taking time off). I'm not saying that in a petulant child sort of way, or even that it's entirely conscious, but he just can't help making one last play for her attention.

Then she indulges him by not telling General Hammond about the Alkesh so he can have his little surprise. Can you just imagine what that little conversation was like?

Sir, I have to inform General Hammond you'll be arriving in the Alkesh.

How come?

Sir, if they see a goa'uld Alkesh approaching earth the whole planet will go on alert. They'll probably scramble the F-302s. You could be shot down.

I can totally out maneuver those fighter jockey space pilot wannabes. They're amateurs. Besides, it would be good practice for them. Come on Carter. It'll be fun.

I'm sorry sir. I just don't think it would be a good idea.

We'll can't you just hold off on telling the General, just until they pick us up on satalite?

I suppose I could wait to give the General all the details.

Yes!

But Sir, I have to at least warn him that you will be arriving by way of an alternate means of transportation.

That's fine, Carter. That shouldn't ruin the surprise too much.

Yes, Sir.

It's just so cute the way they are kind of showing off for each other and indulging one anothers' fondnesses and foibles. She brings him to see the laser gun; he comes to rescue her in the Alkesh. He tries to talk her into going with him; she lets him surprise General Hammond.

[Petra]

I've been staying away because, among other reasons, we hit a string of episodes I'm either "meh' about or outright dislike them and I don't want to ruin your fun.

My two cents on Felger: I'm in the third, really tiny, group of fans who loved Felger in The Other Guys (and the ep itself; I love it) but can't stand him in Avenger 2.0 I think a lot of it has to do with the type of humour presented in the episodes; in TOG humour was based on witty one-liners and Felger's daydreams and hero-worship were offset by cynicism and dry witt of Coombs and Jack. Avenger though is pure slapstick and what can I say? I hate slapstick. That supposedly funny scene with Felger putting on his trousers backwards has me cringing in distaste. Also, not content with presenting Felger as a harmless day-dreamer the writers made him a caricature of himself. He's shown as such an inept idiot that the fact that he works at the SGC breaks my suspension of disbelief. Besides, TOG was focused on Felger, Coombs and SG-1 equally, Avenger is totally a Felger show, so the writers lost the balance, IMO.

I, too, like the little jump in the beginning towards Jack, and I love that Jack steals the ship at the end (presumably) and goes to get Sam first. You know, because she's the one he's really worried about.

Ditto.

And one thing that I've always thought is that Sam working with Felger is like Jack working with Sam, on a strange level. She might have some more insight, now, on what it's like for Jack to work with her--since their minds work so differently, since working with Felger might be so odd for her. It could make her understand Jack's reactions to her a little better. Just a thought.

I don't see that, sorry. Felger's a scientist (allegedly ) so he should be able to pick on Sam's "science waves" just like Jack, a military strategist, can pick up on Sam's "military strategy waves". He doesn't. Also, Felger and Jack are so different that I don't see how working with one would give her insight into the other's psyche.

[Akamaimom]

Just in the sense that her "brand" of science is different from Felger's brand in the same way that Jack's "brand" of science is different from hers. It's like the moments with the "Dot a few I's, cross a few T's" line. She treats it just the same way as Jack treats her "I need more time!" lines. It's all about working styles. Her approach is more organized than Felger's. Jack's approach to everything seems to be more black and white than hers.

Of course, I'm of the belief system that the people one associates with affect the way one sees things. And this is all just opinion, isn't it? There's no one way to see any of this.

[Rachel500]

Just in the sense that her "brand" of science is different from Felger's brand in the same way that Jack's "brand" of science is different from hers. It's like the moments with the "Dot a few I's, cross a few T's" line. She treats it just the same way as Jack treats her "I need more time!" lines. It's all about working styles. Her approach is more organized than Felger's. Jack's approach to everything seems to be more black and white than hers.

Of course, I'm of the belief system that the people one associates with affect the way one sees things. And this is all just opinion, isn't it? There's no one way to see any of this.

For me, before, she works with him, I think Sam actually believes that there is a kind of not-appreciating-how-science-works thing going on with people in general, and Hammond specifically, not giving Felger credit for his underlying scientific knowledge and expertise, because ultimately science fails a lot more than it succeeds. So I think Sam's offer to work with Felger and support him is kind of her way of showing a solidarity with that.

I think what she learns in working with Felger so closely is that Felger's ideas are brilliant but his execution lacks good practice, that there are issues with his work that may be at the root of his failures. She says as much to Hammond after Felger goes missing. So, if anything, I don't think Sam does develop an appreciation or gain an insight into Jack's initial views on scientists, but rather has her own view challenged that perhaps at times others are correct in their impressions and scientists can be flaky and talking something up that they can't deliver on.

Felger is only really saved from being fired IMO by the fact that ultimately, the virus issue is something that perhaps they couldn't have truly foreseen (Ba'al having the capability to change Felger's initial virus and to spread it through the entire network) - although generally when coding something like that, there should have been failsafes to prevent tampering. So his virus did work and Felger did solve the problem ultimately with the anti-virus, etc - which gives him another chance.