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    Originally posted by VSS View Post
    They had already made several mistakes with those bugs, and they didn't know they couldn't multiply. After all, they are alive. Unless Machello is God the bugs are the offspring of some living thing. I guess they did read Jurassic Park!
    They really can't take a chance- it could infect the whole world. They just don't know. Like so many things that are done in the SGC, this all should have been done at an alpha site, to be honest.
    Oh I agree that it probably should have been done elsewhere... but to some extent Daniel had been running around (and *ahem* jumping all over Jack)...

    I guess my point was that there had to be SOMETHING they could have done rather than just stand there and look at them LOL

    And i was wrong before - it was TEN per page turner device.

    Comment


      Originally posted by Twilight506 View Post
      Oh I agree that it probably should have been done elsewhere... but to some extent Daniel had been running around (and *ahem* jumping all over Jack)...

      I guess my point was that there had to be SOMETHING they could have done rather than just stand there and look at them LOL

      And i was wrong before - it was TEN per page turner device.
      Well, Janet came up with the plan rather quickly. Otherwise, I'm sure they would have brought in additional scientists but there wasn't time.

      Something that made me smile was the way Sam said something like "Surely we can do something- we have all this stuff." She's in a medical lab with unfamiliar equipment and sounded like Jack would in her lab surrounded by things he didn't understand. But she figured it out in the end, so maybe they were trying to highlight her brilliance as well as Janet's.
      Last edited by VSS; 10 November 2009, 03:33 PM.

      Comment


        Originally posted by VSS View Post
        Well, Janet came up with the plan rather quickly. Otherwise, I'm sure they would have brought in additional scientists but there wasn't time.

        Something that made me smile was the way Sam said something like "Surely we can do something- we have all this stuff." She's in a medical lab with unfamiliar equipment and sounded like Jack would in her lab surrounded by things he didn't understand. But she figured it out in the end, so maybe they were trying to highlight her brilliance as well as Janet's.
        You know what - I totally thought that too!! Especially when she was like "Okay okay, I get it!" :: giggles :: ah, let the love story begin...

        And you're right, despite Dr. Warner (the fake physician...) Janet did come up with it quickly. I guess I was just more annoyed with Hammond being like "NO" - maybe if he'd been like "let's see what we can do here first" I would have been more forgiving.

        Comment



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          Synopsis
          SG-1 engage in a knowledge exchange programme with the people from Orban, who appear to be descended from Aztec culture. Teal’c stays on Orban to communicate his knowledge of the goa’uld to a boy called Tomin, Daniel stays to excavate ruins and Jack returns to the SGC with the Orbanian girl, Merrin, to deliver a naquadah reactor for Sam to study.
          Initial exchanges between Merrin and Jack and Sam reveal that Merrin is unfamiliar with the Earth concept and methods of learning.
          Whilst on Earth, Dr Fraiser discovers Merrin’s brains is infested with nanites. Initial concern over this turns to acceptance as they realise that the nanites are there to help the Orbanian children to learn - Orban society selects certain children from a young age to learn particular disciplines - Merrin’s is naquadah generator technology, Tomin’s is Goa’uld . These children are known as the Urrone.
          Meanwhile, On Orban, Tomin, alarmed by what Teal’c has told him, asks to undergo the Averium straight away. When Teal’c is presented with another child to "teach" he is suspicious and demands to see Tomin. Upon doing so he and Daniel discover Tomin, having undergone the Averium is unresponsive and seems not to know who they are. Kalan (Tomin's father and the orbanian they are liaising with) explains that during the Averium the nanites in the Urrone child’s brain are extracted and given, one to each other Orbanian person. The process leaves the Urrone child without any knowledge, helpless and baby-like and unable to be given learning nanites from other Urrone children in future. They are essintially left in this soporific like state to live out their days. At first Daniel and Teal’c plead that this is barbaric despite Kalan’s assurances the Urrone children are well cared for.
          Daniel and Teal’c communicate this information back to the SGC, which meets with a similar reaction from all but especially Jack who seems really angry at the whole process. They turn their concern to Merrin, who they now know would face the same fate if she were to return to Orban.
          Sam continues to work on the reactor with Merrin, eventually getting a working prototype.
          Back on Orban, while Daniel is pleading for Merrin to be saved from the Averium he learns more about the process - that if she is allowed to keep her nanites, it would set back research by 12 years. He reluctantly comes around to the Orbanian point of view and accompanies Kalan back to the SGC to retrieve Merrin.
          Jack, aware that he can do nothing to stop them taking her, retrieves Merrin from Sam’s lab, but instead of taking her to Hammond and Kalan, he takes her to the surface, and to the local junior school (presumably Cassie’s old school since she is mentioned here). She plays with the children and then joins them for art class, with Jack encouraging her to use her imagination. She does - after much guidance - get the point of it and Jack is pleased and proud of her but reluctantly also comes to understand that, despite all this, she still intends to return to Orban to undergo the Averium.
          Merrin returns home with a gift of some crayons from Jack, while Hammond shows his displeasure to Jack for his actions. Jack is unrepentent though.
          24 hours later, Kalan contacts the SGC to request SG-1 return to Orban. They do so to discover all the Urrone children playing happily, and Kalan himself seems excited. Kalan explains that this happened after Merrin’s Averium and they realise that Merrin learnt how to have fun and how to learn the old fashioned way. Kalan seems grateful and promises that they will now educate all the old Urrone children this way.





          Review

          This is a really clever idea. The whole concept that there’s this world where the people have forgotten how to learn because they have come to rely on this nanite technology is intriguing. At the same time, there’s a clash against what we think it wrong and barbaric at first, yet is shown to be an essential process in their lifestyle. There’s lots of shades of grey here; the Orbanian people are not wrong for doing what they do and for once it’s the SGC people who, while they may be morally right and seem to have taken the high ground, are actually being closed minded and unaccepting - no one more so that Jack, who I have to admit, annoys me a bit in this episode by displaying a closed off attitude to understanding other cultures. He gets far too involved in what happens to Merrin and shows an astounding lack of objectivity. This does seem to be his Achilles heel though; when there’s a vulnerable child involved, he seems to push his orders and duty to the back. I quite like that vulnerability in him though, and it relfects through to when a member of his team is vulnerable, as we see over and over during the seasons.
          A couple of points struck me as I was watching and I’m going to chuck them out in the more or less random order they came to me:


          The stargate on Orban is copper coloured. Persumably it’s made out of naquadah just like any other stargate, so does this mean someone gave it a pain job and jazzed it up a bit? (To be honest, if I had that hulking great grey spinny thing in the corner of my room, I’d probably want to hang a couple of planters on it or something. )

          Teal’c looks particularly gold here too. Hmm, not all my observations are about colour, honest! I imagine a lot of this is to do with the lighting to bring an Aztec feel to the structure the stargate is in. (By the way, the lighting in these scenes is beautiful, and there's a lovely shot where the camera pans around the mosaic at the base of the DHD).

          I love the Aztec connections here. And the theory that the goa'uld caused the downfall of their civillisation on Earth. Is this the only time we see South American gods in goa’uld mythology?

          When Merrin is first trying to tell Sam about the generator she’s completely confused. It’s actually quite nice to see she’s not SuperSam who instantly gets all alien technology straight away.

          I found it interesting the way they automatically assume the nanites are dangerous; that’s a nice call back to Brief Candle and I like the way Sam looks at Jack and he kind of shudders and goes "eurgh".

          I loved seeing Daniel all down and dirty (bandana and all) actually being an acheologist here. He's so excited and you can’t help being excited with him.

          Teal'c is the first one who gets suspicious about Tomin's unavailability that reveals just what these children are. He seems to have grown quite attached to Tomin. There’s a whole sub plot there where he’s dealing with his own anger about Tomin’s treatment. Actually, despite the fact the team spend a god portion of the episode doing their own thing (the only time all four of them are together is the very end) each of them has their own story within this episode.

          Sam's kind of motherly and protective over Merrin; she touches her several times in a reassuring way. Now we know Jack's kind of fatherly towards Merrin and it very much reminds me of their positioned (almost reversed) in Singularity.

          To actually get the generator to work Sam "reverses the polarity" on it... *snort*

          I loved the painting scene. The camera panning over all the paintings the children are doing (and when you see them in the background) and there’s that one that’s obviously supposed to be Jack. Yes well. I would have painted that too if I were told to paint something I love.
          I also like the whole process of him teaching Merrin to have fun and use her imagination and their slightly antagonistic-but-affectionate banter. This comes to a beatiful fruition at the end, when she explains the stick figure is "a representation of Major Carter" and his face beams with pride becauase he knows she undertands what this was all about. Yes, that look right there in the banner.

          When SG-1 go back to Orban, there's a shot of a child playing hopscotch that is an exact mirror of a previous shot of the children at the school playing the same game. I just thought that was a neat bit of editing/direction.

          How come the children that had undergone the Averium suddenly learnt all those things from Merrin overnight? It was previously stated that these children’s brains reject nanites so they can't simply be given them and brought back up to speed with everyone else in society. I can understand them learning these things eventually from the adults who have been given Merrin's nanites, but that would take a lot longer than 24 hours, surely?



          Shippy moments:


          There’s really only a couple: sorry, no Jack and Sam sitting next to each other in the briefing this episode; the briefing room scene has Jack too angry to be sitting down (and he was probably next to Teal'c anyway, given his position). There's plenty of closeness though and ease around each other though, and it's interesting that Jack chose to remain on Earth where Sam was, rather than return to Orban and join Teal'c and Daniel.

          The most important scene, ship-wise, with Sam and Jack is the one in the infirmary where they are explaining what learning is. They stand very, very close and they are - Sam in particular - extremely flirty in the looks and the comments.

          Jack’s smile when he sees Sam asleep at her desk is almost tender. He gets right in there close to wake her up. He could have just shouted or prodded her. After she wakes up he gives the cutest gesture to her too; like a sweet little "what do you think you’re doing falling asleep here?" gesture.

          And again, generally there’s a lot of framing of them together throughout the episode.




          Favourite quote:

          Merrin to Jack: "So you are not a scientist?"
          Jack: "Oh no." Smiles slightly smugly and seems rather proud of the fact.


          Favourite scene:


          Well it has to be that scene in the infirmary (mentioned above) because it’s all round just funny and cute.


          Implications for Sam and Jack.

          This cements more of the same closeness they have that we have seen all season so far. Sam is flirty and you might even say a little cheeky towards him in that scene in the infirmary but Jack does not seem to mind (or notice the cheek) at all.
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          Comment


            Originally posted by Cagranosalis View Post
            I loved the painting scene. The camera panning over all the paintings the children are doing (and when you see them in the background) and there’s that one that’s obviously supposed to be Jack. Yes well. I would have painted that too if I were told to paint something I love.
            I also like the whole process of him teaching Merrin to have fun and use her imagination and their slightly antagonistic-but-affectionate banter. This comes to a beatiful fruition at the end, when she explains the stick figure is "a representation of Major Carter" and his face beams with pride becauase he knows she undertands what this was all about. Yes, that look right there in the banner.
            That was a great scene, probably my favorite along with the Sam and Merrin ones with the reactor.

            Overall I just adore this episode, it's easily one of my favorites from the series, and it has a lot of what I especially enjoy about Stargate.

            I especially liked that while SG-1, and Jack especially, very much disagreed with the Orbanians use of the Averium, in the end they respected the Orbanians wishes, let Merrin go home, and essentially seem to have left them in peace. The SGC may have disapproved of a part of their culture, but they ultimately did not force their beliefs onto the Orbanian or force them to change their practices.

            I personally didn't see anything flirty with Sam and Jack, but I did enjoy their comfortable and sometimes teasing interactions, like Jack's amused acceptance of Sam's excitement over the reactor.

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            Comment


              Jack being closed minded doesn't surprise me. My father is incredibly intelligent (background: he's a retired AF Lt. Col C-130 pilot who flew black ops) - but every now and again he demonstrates a single mindedness about something that others would be surprised at.

              He (Jack) is old school military - there is right, there is wrong. God and country, honor and duty - hard core baby. Jack lives in a black and white world - throughout the series he doesn't deal with the gray. In "Scorched Earth" he doesn't care who's up the ship (obviously this is s. 4) - he feels duty bound to protect the people that he helped relocate. Daniel is your gray area guy.

              I see Sam as sort of an in between person - she's got a lot of the same ideas that Jack does (how often does she agree with him?) but she understands Daniel's point of view which sometimes created tension (scorched earth...) but she always falls back on obeying her superior officer...

              Comment


                Originally posted by Cagranosalis View Post
                Review
                This is a really clever idea. The whole concept that there’s this world where the people have forgotten how to learn because they have come to rely on this nanite technology is intriguing. At the same time, there’s a clash against what we think it wrong and barbaric at first, yet is shown to be an essential process in their lifestyle. There’s lots of shades of grey here; the Orbanian people are not wrong for doing what they do and for once it’s the SGC people who, while they may be morally right and seem to have taken the high ground, are actually being closed minded and unaccepting - no one more so that Jack,
                Totally agree with you here, they are being very closed minded, as you say it's not as black and white as Jack thinks at first
                I love the Aztec connections here. And the theory that the goa'uld caused the downfall of their civillisation on Earth. Is this the only time we see South American gods in goa’uld mythology?
                I think Hathor was found in South America but there wasn't much South America in that episode. The only other one that springs to mind was Telchak (sp??) in Evolution 1,2.

                How come the children that had undergone the Averium suddenly learnt all those things from Merrin overnight? It was previously stated that these children’s brains reject nanites so they can't simply be given them and brought back up to speed with everyone else in society. I can understand them learning these things eventually from the adults who have been given Merrin's nanites, but that would take a lot longer than 24 hours, surely?
                I'd wondered if most of the children we not Urrone and so had learnt by getting their nanite. Tomin didn't look completely cognisant and Merrin was only scribbling on the walls, so I'd always kinda assumed that the other kids were 'teaching' Tomin to play the game. *shrugs*
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                Comment


                  Originally posted by Twilight506 View Post
                  Jack being closed minded doesn't surprise me. My father is incredibly intelligent (background: he's a retired AF Lt. Col C-130 pilot who flew black ops) - but every now and again he demonstrates a single mindedness about something that others would be surprised at.

                  He (Jack) is old school military - there is right, there is wrong. God and country, honor and duty - hard core baby. Jack lives in a black and white world - throughout the series he doesn't deal with the gray. In "Scorched Earth" he doesn't care who's up the ship (obviously this is s. 4) - he feels duty bound to protect the people that he helped relocate. Daniel is your gray area guy.

                  I see Sam as sort of an in between person - she's got a lot of the same ideas that Jack does (how often does she agree with him?) but she understands Daniel's point of view which sometimes created tension (scorched earth...) but she always falls back on obeying her superior officer...
                  Hmmm. I diagree here to an extent but I think it could be a definition of black, white and gray.

                  I think Jack is very used to living in the gray during his time in black ops. He gets that sometimes you have to step into the morally ambiguous grey in order for the greater good; to do distasteful things on the premise that they're needed. And Jack steps back into that gray when he needs to: he'll blow up the Gadmeer ship to save the Enkarans; he'll close the iris on Alar and stop a Nazi figure stepping through the gate; he'll point a gun at Kinsey to secure information to get Hammond back; he'll work with Maybourne again to find Sam...he'll outright lie to his closest friends in order to perform an undercover mission.

                  I think Jack is very used to operating in the gray murkiness and I do think he believes the Stargate programme allows him an opportunity to step out of the gray and actively do 'the right thing'; to take the high ground and wear the white hat.

                  Daniel, on the other hand, is more used to wearing the white hat. He naturally just wants to do the right thing the right way; he'll want to find a way to save both the Gadmeer and the Enkarans, he'll question Alar's motives despite the risk to securing technology. Part of Daniel's journey is learning that sometimes you have to step into the gray in order to do the right thing (like shooting Anubis's son in Prototype or pulling a gun on Adria in Flesh and Bone).

                  But the two are fundamentally different when it comes to understanding and being tolerant of other cultures' sense of right and wrong/black, white and gray. Here Daniel is more prepared to accept that another culture may not have the same yardstick and won't automatically rush to judge them by his own.

                  Jack is only tolerant of another culture until it becomes harmful/dangerous to someone he cares about or to an innocent - and Sam tends to follow this same line herself especially at the beginning (she'll want to interfere if she's someone getting hurt).

                  I think Learning Curve is a perfect example of Jack's tolerance levels. He's OK with the Orbanian's culture until it becomes clear that it's potentially harmful to the children (even though physically they continue to be well cared for), and that Merrin may suffer. He doesn't accept the Orbanian's view of what is acceptable and sticks to his own moral yardstick.

                  And I think part of his frustration and decision to take Merrin on the unauthorised jaunt is down to the belief that the SGC is not doing the right thing by Merrin and he's having to step into the gray again in handing her back. He rejects the notion that tolerating and accepting the Orbanian's own culture is actually the right thing to do - as Merrin herself states she has a duty to her people and her knowledge is important to them regardless of Jack's judgement over whether the process is right or wrong.
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                  Comment


                    I think closed-minded is a rather harsh view of what Jack's principles are in this case. What he's falling back on are two millenia of philosophy that teaches the right of the individual is paramount. And you'll see him act that way over and over again, because it is one of the central tenets of Western thought, culminating in the economic theory of capitalism and the political theory of democracy. I could be wrong, but I bet that they get a big dose of Western philosophy in the Air Force Academy or wherever else he went to school. I'm not sure how you can be an officer without knowing what's behind the Constitution you're supposed to uphold and protect.

                    So it's not that he has a knee-jerk reflex against something that is simply not what he believes, but rather because goes against everything he's learned. The writers of the story chose to portray this as a live-and-let-live story. But in reality, what the Orbanians did would be considered child abuse and a fundamental violation of human rights here on Earth. I think Jack doesn't care so much for social theory, but he does care about what happens to little kids.
                    Last edited by VSS; 12 November 2009, 03:06 AM.

                    Comment


                      Sam, Jack & Learning Curve

                      Again, the closeness is very nice between the two. I love the whole infirmary scene and discussion over fun - it's nicely echoed in Nemesis when Jack invites Sam fishing and she points to the reactor as being her idea of fun before realising he's inviting her.

                      It's also quite a sweet note that Jack just smiles at the picture of Sam that Merrin draws for him.
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                      Comment


                        Originally posted by Cagranosalis View Post
                        Review

                        This is a really clever idea. The whole concept that there’s this world where the people have forgotten how to learn because they have come to rely on this nanite technology is intriguing.
                        I agree, it's a very fascinating idea, and it's interesting how well the writers carry this concept through- even those with the nanites memorize- they don't learn. That's why Marrin has to recall everything from start to finish when she's explaining the reactor to Sam, and why she can't just draw a piece of the reactor. The one thing that doesn't make sense is that since these nanites were invented 49 years ago, why don't any of the older people remember how to teach and learn? It doesn't make sense. The time span should have been much longer than 49 years, but I suppose they wanted to show how quickly the Orbanians have progressed in just a few decades.
                        I loved seeing Daniel all down and dirty (bandana and all) actually being an acheologist here. He's so excited and you can’t help being excited with him.
                        Oh, me too, and this is what I miss about Daniel in the later years.
                        Teal'c is the first one who gets suspicious about Tomin's unavailability that reveals just what these children are. He seems to have grown quite attached to Tomin. There’s a whole sub plot there where he’s dealing with his own anger about Tomin’s treatment. Actually, despite the fact the team spend a god portion of the episode doing their own thing (the only time all four of them are together is the very end) each of them has their own story within this episode.
                        Yes, they do! I just noticed that myself. This is really a great Sam episode, because just like Daniel, we get to see her in her element.

                        REgarding Jack, I think we're seeing his angst over Charlie simmering just below the surface again, especially when he says "The way you treat your children.." and then later on when he's at the playground where evidently the kids all know him though it's been at least four years since Charlie died and they were probably not his classmates. I would bet that the school has a Charlie O'Neill Memorial Field that the kids play baseball on, or something along those lines. It's a sad thing but at my kids' school we've got several memorial scholarships named for kids who died.

                        And again, generally there’s a lot of framing of them together throughout the episode.
                        Lots of framing, and not just in the infirmary scene but also when they're first informed about the nanites. Framing is definitely one of those things that sneak up on a viewer, but I have to believe is intentional. Or, as you suggested, RDA and AT just really like each other a lot! Just for fun, it'd be worth watching the framing with Daniel and Sam. Or, in season 5, Jack and Sam. I bet the impressions we will get will be different.

                        The seating arrangement count is just an objective proxy for framing, after all.
                        Favourite quote:

                        Merrin to Jack: "So you are not a scientist?"
                        Jack: "Oh no." Smiles slightly smugly and seems rather proud of the fact.
                        And the rest of it: "So you are not as smart as Major Carter and Dr. Frazier?". Nothing like an Orbanian kid to cut to the chase, eh?

                        This cements more of the same closeness they have that we have seen all season so far. Sam is flirty and you might even say a little cheeky towards him in that scene in the infirmary but Jack does not seem to mind (or notice the cheek) at all.
                        I'm not sure that she's cheeky or flirty, but it is very cute to see her laughing at him like that, and I don't think he minds it one bit.

                        Originally posted by Aveo_amacus View Post
                        I'd wondered if most of the children we not Urrone and so had learnt by getting their nanite. Tomin didn't look completely cognisant and Merrin was only scribbling on the walls, so I'd always kinda assumed that the other kids were 'teaching' Tomin to play the game. *shrugs*
                        I think those kids had all undergone the Averium and were being taught to play by Merrin. I don't think any of the other kids play, not even the normal ones. She could only teach them the things she had actually learned, however, not the things she memorized. She learned to play hopscotch and to draw, but still could probably only draw Sam.

                        Comment


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                          Last edited by sg-1fanintn; 13 November 2009, 05:10 PM.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by VSS View Post
                            I think closed-minded is a rather harsh view of what Jack's principles are in this case. What he's falling back on are two millenia of philosophy that teaches the right of the individual is paramount. And you'll see him act that way over and over again, because it is one of the central tenets of Western thought, culminating in the economic theory of capitalism and the political theory of democracy. I could be wrong, but I bet that they get a big dose of Western philosophy in the Air Force Academy or wherever else he went to school. I'm not sure how you can be an officer without knowing what's behind the Constitution you're supposed to uphold and protect.

                            So it's not that he has a knee-jerk reflex against something that is simply not what he believes, but rather because goes against everything he's learned. The writers of the story chose to portray this as a live-and-let-live story. But in reality, what the Orbanians did would be considered child abuse and a fundamental violation of human rights here on Earth. I think Jack doesn't care so much for social theory, but he does care about what happens to little kids.
                            I think you phrased it better than I did - this is what I was getting at. Military officers tend to have "black and white" thinking -

                            Rachel - I'm not sure he would consider his black ops actions "gray" - *we* might - but for him, they were necessary. In his mind he was right, whoever he was going against was wrong. The job may not have been "pleasant" but in the words of my father "Shannon, we all have to do things in life we don't want to, so suck it up and deal with it." In his mind what he did was no more wrong than a lion taking down a prey or attacking a potential predator.

                            So.

                            That's my take on it anyway.

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by Twilight506 View Post
                              I think you phrased it better than I did - this is what I was getting at. Military officers tend to have "black and white" thinking -

                              Rachel - I'm not sure he would consider his black ops actions "gray" - *we* might - but for him, they were necessary. In his mind he was right, whoever he was going against was wrong. <snip>
                              That's my take on it anyway.
                              Like I said in my previous post, I think some of it comes from us defining what black, white and gray mean differently; I think you're coming from a 'right/wrong' perspective whereas I come from a 'being good/evil' - and there is a subtle distinction between the two.

                              How Jack would consider his actions - I agree that I think he'd consider them the 'right' thing to do, but I don't think he would consider them as being 'good' acts.

                              But I'm sure we can agree to disagree
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                              Comment


                                Originally posted by Rachel500 View Post
                                Like I said in my previous post, I think some of it comes from us defining what black, white and gray mean differently; I think you're coming from a 'right/wrong' perspective whereas I come from a 'being good/evil' - and there is a subtle distinction between the two.

                                How Jack would consider his actions - I agree that I think he'd consider them the 'right' thing to do, but I don't think he would consider them as being 'good' acts.

                                But I'm sure we can agree to disagree
                                I seem to remember a comment by him in an episode (or maybe it was a fanfiction?), where he said something about having had to do some "damned distasteful things" in the past.

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