Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[Aveo_amacus]

Yeah I think you're right Ayiana was older than 10000 somewhere in the order of a million but then Ancients were the first and we were the second evolution of this form *Anthropologist dies inside*

[VSS]

Yeah I think you're right Ayiana was older than 10000 somewhere in the order of a million but then Ancients were the first and we were the second evolution of this form *Anthropologist dies inside*

No, no.
If I can make Thor's lack of genitalia work with genetics, you can make this work with anthropology.

Heck, i even have a theory as to why everyone speaks English! Come on, Aveo!

[Aveo_amacus]

No, no.
If I can make Thor's lack of genitalia work with genetics, you can make this work with anthropology.

Heck, i even have a theory as to why everyone speaks English! Come on, Aveo!

yeah okay

how about - "the fossil record is incredibly incomplete so it is not statistically impossible that Homo sapiens evolved before 200 000 and as 'culture' is incredibly badly preserved in the fossil record it is possible that they had a more advanced technology than olduvai or achulean. Also as the population in question became known as the 'ancients' they were additionally advanced technologically so it would have been possible for them to hide any evidence from the human excavated record. Also as evidenced in avalon they did not evolve on Earth the first time which maintains the integrity of the initial timeline."
cringe
Still unsure about when the alterans inserted themselves into the hominin development...

[VSS]

yeah okay

how about - "the fossil record is incredibly incomplete so it is not statistically impossible that Homo sapiens evolved before 200 000 and as 'culture' is incredibly badly preserved in the fossil record it is possible that they had a more advanced technology than olduvai or achulean. Also as the population in question became known as the 'ancients' they were additionally advanced technologically so it would have been possible for them to hide any evidence from the human excavated record. Also as evidenced in avalon they did not evolve on Earth the first time which maintains the integrity of the initial timeline."
cringe
Still unsure about when the alterans inserted themselves into the hominin development...

There you go! I'm sure you're right.
I feel like Jack must when sam is talking....

[Petra]

I love Solitudes. It's my second favourite ep after TbfgoG.

It's great to see how Jack slowly opens up to Sam, much like he did to Daniel on Abydos. When he responds to Sam's "Your wife" with "At the time", it's one of the most poignant moments in the series. I love how Sam tries to be brave and Jack just is so incredibly brave, focused in their survival, using humour to distract her, not letting her give up no matter what.

Dialogues are simply outstanding, I can't just pick one. And then there's the famous "sidearm" comment..

Favorite Scene: When Jack orders Sam to implement Plan B. I could write an essay on that scene alone.

Please do.

[SPOILER]I read through the comments and a lot of people complained about Sam not dialing another planet.

Spoiler:

We don’t, in fact, know that she didn’t. But her point of origin is not correct- she uses the one she thinks is the point of origin, but it’s the wrong one. She would actually have to know that she’s on earth to be able to dial anywhere. She could never have gotten them out of there on her own.

Now that you pointed it out, it seems so obvious! And yet, I've never thought of it. True, no matter what Sam would have done they wouldn't have been able to save ourselves.

The next scene where she goes back down to be with Jack, thinking they’ll both die is so powerful and says so much about their relationship that it’s hard to describe. I do think that anyone who believes these two have nothing in common and nothing on which to build a romantic relationship might need to rewatch Solitudes. I’ve heard that in some foreign releases her name was substituted for Sara’s but I’m not sure how I feel about that. Would that have made everything feel very different? I think it would have.

Nope, the antis think it was perfectly normal behaviour for CO and his 2IC and that it isn't a proof of any bond between them. *sigh*
I agree though, it's a wonderful scene.
I've heard about name changing as well, but I'm not a fan of this idea. I still think this episode is about friendship, not romance. It's still innnocent, for the lack of better word, and implying something else would take away from the episode IMO.

I really wish we'd have had more of these stranded stories, and not just between Sam and Jack. WHy weren't there more? The closest other one we get is Abyss, and it was terrific, too.

There's also "100 days" in season 3. You can't get more stranded than Jack was in that ep.

Implications for Sam & Jack: This must have forged a deep bond between the two of them. Sam, in particular must have felt a lot closer to him than previously. I wonder, though, how much Jack remembers, and does this have something to do with why Sam seems to be the first one of the two to look at the other in “that way?”

Possibly. It's too early for either one of them to have some feelings for each other, IMO they just reached a friendship stage in this episode, but in a few years time when Sam realises what she feels is more than mere friendship, affection and respect she might start thinking about Antarctica in a different light.
I'm not sure that Jack remebers much, and even if he does I doubt he'd ever let know.

Also, this episode just serves to reinforce how much Jack loved Sara, and how hard that must have been for him. Personally, I'm glad they kept bringing that up throughout the first season. For me, it only serves to reinforce the idea that once he fell in love with Sam, it was permanent.

I agree. I also like it. And don't kill me, but I think at this point he's *still* in love with her. They must have been married over a decade, together pulled through this parachuting accident he talks about here, and his later imprisonment in Iraq, so their love must have been really strong. It's not a feeling you can recover from during months, or even a year.

[Petra]

No, no.
If I can make Thor's lack of genitalia work with genetics, you can make this work with anthropology.

Heck, i even have a theory as to why everyone speaks English! Come on, Aveo!

Seriously? What's your theory then? I'd love to hear it

[VSS]

Dialogues are simply outstanding, I can't just pick one. And then there's the famous "sidearm" comment..

That whole scene is an interesting one, although people like to point that particular quote out I think to me the most important part was when he said he might "otherwise think that this is nice," to have her lying on him. The sidearm comment was a joke, but the other is just- sweet. He likes to cuddle with her. Awwww.

Nope, the antis think it was perfectly normal behaviour for CO and his 2IC and that it isn't a proof of any bond between them. *sigh*

No, I don't really think this is normal behavior for SG-1 team mates because of the romantic and sexual overtones, but I do think it was mostly just bonding. The reason why I emphasis SG-1 is because it might very well be normal behavior in such a stressed-out situation in RL, but not on this show. She pretends to be his wife, he makes it very clear in more ways than one that he likes being in close physical contact with her- no, not normal for SG-1. They never did that with any of their other team mates, AFAIK.

I've heard about name changing as well, but I'm not a fan of this idea. I still think this episode is about friendship, not romance. It's still innnocent, for the lack of better word, and implying something else would take away from the episode IMO.

Yes.

There's also "100 days" in season 3. You can't get more stranded than Jack was in that ep.

I was thinking more along the lines of two of the team stranded together where they are sort of forced to deal with each other. You get a lot of insight to the characters when they do that.

I agree. I also like it. And don't kill me, but I think at this point he's *still* in love with her. They must have been married over a decade, together pulled through this parachuting accident he talks about here, and his later imprisonment in Iraq, so their love must have been really strong. It's not a feeling you can recover from during months, or even a year.

First of all, no one's going to shoot you on this thread. But second of all, I quite agree. It seems much more realistic to take a few years for him to even think about Sam in a romantic way, so the restraint TPTB showed in developing the romance is actually pretty admirable, considering it was in the back of their minds from the start. And I like that quality in Jack, because he hung in there all those years with Sam when he should have moved on, but he didn't really move on at all until he thought she was a lost cause. Of course, a person can say he had off-screen relationships even though there's zero evidence of that, but his behavior with Sara would indicate that just isn't his style. He's in it for the long haul.

Seriously? What's your theory then? I'd love to hear it

Maybe sometime- but it has to do with Moebius.

[Coela Bellatore]

That whole scene is an interesting one, although people like to point that particular quote out I think to me the most important part was when he said he might "otherwise think that this is nice," to have her lying on him. The sidearm comment was a joke, but the other is just- sweet. He likes to cuddle with her. Awwww.
No, I don't really think this is normal behavior for SG-1 team mates because of the romantic and sexual overtones, but I do think it was mostly just bonding. The reason why I emphasis SG-1 is because it might very well be normal behavior in such a stressed-out situation in RL, but not on this show. She pretends to be his wife, he makes it very clear in more ways than one that he likes being in close physical contact with her- no, not normal for SG-1. They never did that with any of their other team mates, AFAIK.

Yes.

I was thinking more along the lines of two of the team stranded together where they are sort of forced to deal with each other. You get a lot of insight to the characters when they do that.


First of all, no one's going to shoot you on this thread. But second of all, I quite agree. It seems much more realistic to take a few years for him to even think about Sam in a romantic way, so the restraint TPTB showed in developing the romance is actually pretty admirable, considering it was in the back of their minds from the start. And I like that quality in Jack, because he hung in there all those years with Sam when he should have moved on, but he didn't really move on at all until he thought she was a lost cause. Of course, a person can say he had off-screen relationships even though there's zero evidence of that, but his behavior with Sara would indicate that just isn't his style. He's in it for the long haul.



Maybe sometime- but it has to do with Moebius.

I go on one stinking direct action and miss so much.



Yeah, Solitudes was the first SG-1 episode out side of seasons 9 and 10 that I saw and it was the first episode that made me show any interest in the show. The sad part was that when Sam pretended to be Sara for Jack, we have a sort of unwritten thing here that you don't do anything like that unless someone is going to die, and I mean is missing a very important part of their body die. So the fact that Sam did this meant to me that it was the end for old Jack O'Neil, I didn't know it was season 1 or that RDA was on any later than that. It is especially poignant when you know Jack is going to die rather than the fact he will just come back next episode. The sidearm comment was funny but it could have been sooooo much better. There is a little PJ (pararescue jumper) trick that Air Force Spec Ops uses to determine internal bleeding if they don't want to remove a cummerbund.

But yeah, dirty air force medical jokes aside, this was my first real SG-1 episode so its special to me.

[josiane]

Solitudes
I would liked to have been in fandom when Solitudes aired. It’s such fantastic drama and character piece that you forget it’s supposed to be a scifi series. And, I must admit, this combination of BW doing the writing and MW directing is what is giving me high hopes for SG1-3. I’m expecting a pull-out-all-the-stops-nail-biting-tearjerker finale for the series, and no less.

Oh me too, on both counts. This was the first episode that I watched that really really gripped me when I was watching through for the first time. I'm one of those people who doesn't get really involved in a show unless I develop an emotional attachment to the characters, and it was this episode where that really started to happen for me properly on first viewing.

In the end, Daniel figures out what’s going on, and it had to have been so frustrating for him- he’s way out of his field trying to find the one person who could have figured it out in no time at all, but he doesn’t give up, he just uses his intellect in a different way. And poor Teal’c, whose solution is always action, has to sit on his hands. So it’s a terrific team episode as well.

It's the same for Jack, really, when you think about it. He always wants to 'do' as well, but is prevented from it by his injuries. He tries to help but in the end has to leave it to Sam and just lie there. Epsiodes like this where one of their modes of operation is cut out are always interesting, and show why they work so well as a team - if action isn't an option, they have the intellect as well. And they all understand that no one method is 'better' - both Jack and Teal'c, who might originally have thought that way, do learn very quickly that they wouldn't get very far as a team if they didn't have Sam and Daniel with their thoughtful approach. They may fight about it (particularly Jack and Daniel ), but underneath they do know. They wouldn't work if they didn't.

The scene where Jack sends Sam up to the surface is just heartwrenching. He’s dying, and his final wish is to be in command as well as to give her a chance to live. Sam doesn’t have to do what he says at this point, but she follows his orders anyway. And the scene where she climbs out and we get that wide-angle shot is really something else. It’s just hopeless.

I also really like this scene for the gentle fun it pokes at the scifi convention (which they themselves had been guilty of, and continue to be, frankly) that whole planets are all the same - ice planet, desert planet etc. It's so neatly done here, IMO, because it's done in this moment of utter despair, and when you realise it's all tied up with the relief of them being rescued, and is a real 'oh yes of course!' moment. Well, it was for me, anyway

The next scene where she goes back down to be with Jack, thinking they’ll both die is so powerful and says so much about their relationship that it’s hard to describe. I do think that anyone who believes these two have nothing in common and nothing on which to build a romantic relationship might need to rewatch Solitudes. I’ve heard that in some foreign releases her name was substituted for Sara’s but I’m not sure how I feel about that. Would that have made everything feel very different? I think it would have.

I agree, and also with what you and col aga say about the effect of Jack's lingering feelings for Sara have on the development of Sam and Jack's relationship. It's good that they don't just 'switch off' the feelings after Cold Lazarus and 'switch on' the ones for Sam. RL doesn't work that way, and it's far more realistic for the transition to be a blurred one like this. I also think though, that Jack's lingering feelings for Sara kind of mask his growing feelings for Sam too, and I think Solitudes is kind of the start of this.

Of course, maybe if Jack and Sam had another experience like this later, they might have not have forgotten about how much they share and what they mean to each other, either.

I will admit I got teary-eyed when the helicopter showed up. I loved the realism of involving the base at McMurdoe, even if they weren’t really there.

I really wish we'd have had more of these stranded stories, and not just between Sam and Jack. WHy weren't there more? The closest other one we get is Abyss, and it was terrific, too.

I'd have loved to have had Sam and Jack stranded sometime in a later season! However it would almost certainly have led to a resolution of some kind, so in terms of the overall story arc might not have worked so well. You could argue Grace touches on this, but of course because Jack was a hallucination you could have the revelations without it actually affecting their relationship back on earth. The repercussions of Sam's thought-processes do, sure, with the advent of Pete, but it's one-sided.

Implications for Sam & Jack: This must have forged a deep bond between the two of them. Sam, in particular must have felt a lot closer to him than previously. I wonder, though, how much Jack remembers, and does this have something to do with why Sam seems to be the first one of the two to look at the other in “that way?”

Also, this episode just serves to reinforce how much Jack loved Sara, and how hard that must have been for him. Personally, I'm glad they kept bringing that up throughout the first season. For me, it only serves to reinforce the idea that once he fell in love with Sam, it was permanent.

Yes and yes. This really is a bonding episode - it's not just about friendship, it's not about romance, it's not just about the team, it's about Sam and Jack discovering that when the chips are down, they give each other strength, they understand each other, and they will not give up on each other. It's very important to have this at this point in the series, I think, because the Sam and Jack relationship has that slight question mark over it at the start, both for us and for each of them. Jack and Daniel already did their bonding in the movie, we don't need to doubt that. Jack and Teal'c understand each other from the start - the whole process of getting Teal'c on SG1 and The Enemy Within takes care of this understanding and bond. Sam and Daniel are portrayed as instantly clicking and not really needing to prove themselves to each other. But for Sam and Jack it's less obvious that they're going to work on this trust level - Sam feels the need to prove herself, and Jack needs Sam to prove herself. They've already made steps that way throughout the episodes up to this point, but this is the one that seals the deal.

There you go! I'm sure you're right.
I feel like Jack must when sam is talking....

Me too

[VSS]

I go on one stinking direct action and miss so much.

I'm sure we don't have to tell you to be careful out there. But be careful out there!

The sad part was that when Sam pretended to be Sara for Jack, we have a sort of unwritten thing here that you don't do anything like that unless someone is going to die, and I mean is missing a very important part of their body die. So the fact that Sam did this meant to me that it was the end for old Jack O'Neil, I didn't know it was season 1 or that RDA was on any later than that. It is especially poignant when you know Jack is going to die rather than the fact he will just come back next episode.

Wow, really?Do you think the writers knew that? I got the impression that it was a really extreme thing to do, as well, something Sam would never have done if she thought he'd remember- but what you say makes perfect sense. She thought they were both going to die.

The sidearm comment was funny but it could have been sooooo much better. There is a little PJ (pararescue jumper) trick that Air Force Spec Ops uses to determine internal bleeding if they don't want to remove a cummerbund.

Heh. I can imagine- but this is supposed to be a family show.

It's the same for Jack, really, when you think about it. He always wants to 'do' as well, but is prevented from it by his injuries. He tries to help but in the end has to leave it to Sam and just lie there. Epsiodes like this where one of their modes of operation is cut out are always interesting, and show why they work so well as a team - if action isn't an option, they have the intellect as well.

That's an excellent point. Maybe that plays into my thinking about the stranded-together-eps, too. They're cut off from their usual methods of handling things, whatever that method might be. I'd like to have seen Daniel and Sam stranded on a planet with absolutely no civilization whatsoever and no scientific instruments. Just rocks and trees. They'd drive each other nuts.

I also really like this scene for the gentle fun it pokes at the scifi convention (which they themselves had been guilty of, and continue to be, frankly) that whole planets are all the same - ice planet, desert planet etc.

Well, I fell for it. On the other hand, you'd assume the stargate would be in one of the more hospitable areas of the planet- I guess that's why I felt that, in this case, Sam's thinking is not far off. What I think is funny is that the populations of other worlds are so small and homogeneous- but in Stargate it's all entirely explained away by the stargate and how people got there in the first place. I really like that aspect of the show.
Oh, and it explains how they all speak English. (sorry, aga).

I'd have loved to have had Sam and Jack stranded sometime in a later season! However it would almost certainly have led to a resolution of some kind, so in terms of the overall story arc might not have worked so well.

I don't think they could have possibly done an episode like it again, either. If the two of them were stranded and they didn't get it on, no one would believe it; and if they did it would cause huge problems once they returned. While I think that could have made for an interesting story if it were done properly, I don't think Stargate SG-1 is really the place for that kind of thing, and it would be very difficult to write. That's kind of a BSG story arc, I think. Oh wait- it was a BSG story arc! See, it's completely irresistable.

It's very important to have this at this point in the series, I think, because the Sam and Jack relationship has that slight question mark over it at the start, both for us and for each of them. Jack and Daniel already did their bonding in the movie, we don't need to doubt that. Jack and Teal'c understand each other from the start - the whole process of getting Teal'c on SG1 and The Enemy Within takes care of this understanding and bond. Sam and Daniel are portrayed as instantly clicking and not really needing to prove themselves to each other. But for Sam and Jack it's less obvious that they're going to work on this trust level - Sam feels the need to prove herself, and Jack needs Sam to prove herself. They've already made steps that way throughout the episodes up to this point, but this is the one that seals the deal.

That's another great point- and Daniel definitely had issues with Teal'c, very serious ones. However, Thor's Hammer was a turning point for them, I think. Which I would never have picked up on without this rewatch, BTW.
Now, what about Sam and Teal'c? That's the one combination for which I can't think of a episode.

[josiane]

Well, I fell for it. On the other hand, you'd assume the stargate would be in one of the more hospitable areas of the planet- I guess that's why I felt that, in this case, Sam's thinking is not far off. What I think is funny is that the populations of other worlds are so small and homogeneous- but in Stargate it's all entirely explained away by the stargate and how people got there in the first place. I really like that aspect of the show.
Oh, and it explains how they all speak English. (sorry, aga).

Oh me too! And I love that about Stargate, just like here - they're never afraid to hang a lantern on the cliche's, to use the correct term So you have aliens who all speak English and planets that all look like British Columbia, but they've created a rationale for it. And I think the point for Solitudes is that, like Sam, we do fall for it, only to have them reveal that it's Antarctica and go 'gotcha!'

I don't think they could have possibly done an episode like it again, either. If the two of them were stranded and they didn't get it on, no one would believe it; and if they did it would cause huge problems once they returned. While I think that could have made for an interesting story if it were done properly, I don't think Stargate SG-1 is really the place for that kind of thing, and it would be very difficult to write. That's kind of a BSG story arc, I think. Oh wait- it was a BSG story arc! See, it's completely irresistable.

Yeah

That's another great point- and Daniel definitely had issues with Teal'c, very serious ones. However, Thor's Hammer was a turning point for them, I think. Which I would never have picked up on without this rewatch, BTW.
Now, what about Sam and Teal'c? That's the one combination for which I can't think of a episode.

Ah yes of course, Thor's Hammer was the moment for Daniel and Teal'c. As for Sam and Teal'c, I agree, their relationship does get kind of overlooked, even though now we look at theirs as a very solid friendship - as we know from AT insisting on the scene in the locker-room scene in Paradise Lost. The first episode I can think of where it's really Sam and Teal'c that have to work together is Foothold, actually. Can't think of anything earlier than that.

[VSS]

I agree, their relationship does get kind of overlooked, even though now we look at theirs as a very solid friendship - as we know from AT insisting on the scene in the locker-room scene in Paradise Lost. The first episode I can think of where it's really Sam and Teal'c that have to work together is Foothold, actually. Can't think of anything earlier than that.

I sort of peripherally watched Foothold the other day as my son is plowing through his own personal rewatch at breakneck speed and that's a nice example, especially because it's the two of them against people that they used to trust- even though they know it's not really those people. Or are they? My favorite scene is where Sam plugs the fake Jack without hesitation. I tend to think there's a little vicarious thrill in that for her. Who hasn't wanted to shoot their boss? Sort of an anti-bonding moment, I guess.

[hedwig]

I sort of peripherally watched Foothold the other day as my son is plowing through his own personal rewatch at breakneck speed and that's a nice example, especially because it's the two of them against people that they used to trust- even though they know it's not really those people. Or are they? My favorite scene is where Sam plugs the fake Jack without hesitation. I tend to think there's a little vicarious thrill in that for her. Who hasn't wanted to shoot their boss? Sort of an anti-bonding moment, I guess.

I love your comment about Sam shooting the fake Jack. I've often thought that myself. No hesitation at all. A little subconscious getting even for all the times he cut her off whilst explaining something or other times when he got on her nerves.

[VSS]

I love your comment about Sam shooting the fake Jack. I've often thought that myself. No hesitation at all. A little subconscious getting even for all the times he cut her off whilst explaining something or other times when he got on her nerves.

I know I'd want to shoot him, wouldn't you? Such a smarta**!

[hedwig]

I know I'd want to shoot him, wouldn't you? Such a smarta**!

Most definitely! Or maybe spike his favorite cake with something nasty tasting, or put soda in his beer, or some other such thing. Rank issues aside, Sam has to be one of the most tolerant characters I've ever seen ... or maybe restrained is a better word?