Gateworld Virtual Fleet 4.0 - Discussion thread

[thekillman]

My personal thought was always that Ion Cannons were useless and only good ot takedown shields of starships, then once shields were disabled, disabled all electronics onboard the starship in question, thus rendering the starship as dead in space until such time as all electronics could be repaired or replaced or just restarted after cooldown.

the Tollan guns had no problem annihilating Goauld ships

[Davidtourniquet]

Does this fleet follow the continuity of 3.0? Because I killed Keb off in the last one lol

As for RKV's I don't think they make too much sense from a story telling perspective, it's like a huge step away from how the rest of the SG universe does it. Would completely alter combat dynamics etc..Depends how its done. But that's just my 2 cents.

The only bit remaining from 3.0, is Admiral Shelton and his team going back in time and into an alternate universe: i.e the universe of 4.0.

[Princess Awinita]

the Tollan guns had no problem annihilating Goauld ships

Yes well, the Tollan were also very snooty, never really did like them personally though.

[fugiman]

Yes well, the Tollan were also very snooty, never really did like them personally though.

Oh I loved the Tollan. They were an advanced race who didn't want to cause devastation and were only forced to use their weapons against earth and even then we don't know if they were developing those weapons to use against anubis or earth.

So I always give them some slack.

[immhotep]

Oh I loved the Tollan. They were an advanced race who didn't want to cause devastation and were only forced to use their weapons against earth and even then we don't know if they were developing those weapons to use against anubis or earth.

So I always give them some slack.

Tollan should have stayed our main ally, rather than the Tokra. They shouldnt have been taken so by Anubis so early on. Although perhaps that was a tactical strike on his part, as they were the only race in the galaxy which may have been able to defend and develop weapons against him. Had the Ion cannons remained effective (or they had been given any warning and time to develop another system) I believe they could have destroyed the goauld with the phase bombs in that warehouse. I think that is one of the main areas that we shouldnt have the Aschen as proficient. Phase is perhaps the deadliest of their arsenal and we have no defense against it.

[thekillman]

Phase is perhaps the deadliest of their arsenal and we have no defense against it.

yes. the Aschen should not have phase tech.

Tollan should have stayed our main ally, rather than the Tokra.

nah, it would've made the war too easy to win.


The Tollan in this fleet (i believe a small group survived, if memory serves), could help us a bit with the Aschen, although i believe they still won't give us tech.

[immhotep]

The Tollan in this fleet (i believe a small group survived, if memory serves), could help us a bit with the Aschen, although i believe they still won't give us tech.

I think a colony should have survived with the curia records. Those records could have been backed up offworld anyway, perhaps with the Nox. But the history of the aschen might have the key to defeating them so the Tollan should def be helping us on that side.

[thekillman]

I think a colony should have survived with the curia records. Those records could have been backed up offworld anyway, perhaps with the Nox. But the history of the aschen might have the key to defeating them so the Tollan should def be helping us on that side.

the main Tollan problem won't be preservation of knowledge. it'll be manufacturing capability. all their advanced factories and assembly systems are gone. in the 10 or so years since the last episode, they probably have been able to get some kind of colony up, but i doubt they're able to build their most powerful technology.

especially if the planet they retreated to has no Trinium on it.

as to defeating them:

i'm thinking in terms of an atrocious act by UNEC. My current thought is a Horizon Weapons Module launched at their homeworld. this time, with 10 Mark IX gatebusters in stead of 6 with 4 decoys. It should produce sufficient energy to instantly overcome Aschen city shielding and produce enough radiation, heat and dust to render it utterly uninhabitable.

it should also provide opportunity for a new voice in the Aschen. Practically the next day, the Aschen show up at Heliopolis, proposing a truce where the Aschen get to keep a nice share of their new territory. and they'll fire on whoever gets on their territory.





on a slightly different topic:

i think that we should be less "is it canon" and more "do we WANT it in this fleet?".

Tom, you have the almost unique ability to find every hole in stargate canon and abuse them for all sorts of superweapons. but that's not fun. and it's not very interesting story material. i don't think Metric weaponry is impossible canon-wise. but i do think it's something we shouldn't want right now.


first off, i'd like more tactics in stargate combat than a mere "whoever has the biggest shields and most DPS".

By picking (exotic matter-using) Ion cannons, Plasma cannons and Particle cannons, and by assigning various abilities to each, we can make a much more varied fleet, with much more varied tactics, and much more interesting battle dynamics. (metric weaponry would dominate if used, and would easily overrun the enemy since whoever makes it first, wins)


the Aschen have several advantages and several disadvantages. it is not particularly hard canon-wise to remove the disadvantages, but i can say that nobody will ever be able to win from them then.

[Crazy Tom]

Killman, what you want is unfortunately a paradox.

What you propose would simply give up a standard sci-fi browser-game cookie cutter fleet.

Trying to rationalize good tactics for canon technology leads us inevitably to trying to apply real world principles to them, which invariably leads to a divergence from canon technology- do a degree.

If you want varied tactics, you need to make some realistic approximations and crunch some numbers. And then accepting the results.
We can wax poetic all day about what we want, but it doesn't matte unless we're writing our own fanfic. In a collaborative project like this, the least artificial standard to adhere to is reality+canon.

Frankly I don't see what people are whining about, all I'm doing is enriching the universe.

[thekillman]

What you propose would simply give up a standard sci-fi browser-game cookie cutter fleet.

not necessarily.

like i said, i want this fleet to stabilize the universe first.

to clarify:

right now, i try to set down some more solid rules in Stargate regarding technology.

actually it's not even about technology ITSELF. it's about the thoroughly neglected field of engineering.


Engineering is basically "Reality + Science". a lot of "in theory" gets nuked by Engineering. furthermore, Engineering ensures that you have stuff like incompatibilty, or compatibility. Engineering is about building the stuff envisioned.


Stargate neglects it, which is why a 21th century race is allowed to handle millions of years more advanced technology.

it's too late to reverse that decision, but it certainly won't hurt to add in a little common sense to technology. like, advanced technology actually being difficult to grasp.

[immhotep]

Tom, you have the almost unique ability to find every hole in stargate canon and abuse them for all sorts of superweapons.

ROFL. SO TRUE. Also very unhelpful. I keep returning to this "sandbox" metaphor. TPTB created a universe with its own established mechanics and laws based on the hypotheticals of science and technology we know right now. When establishing those rules it did not include or incorporate others. We should respect that and in our fleet and our extrapolations be mindful of it. Our role is not to change that sandbox but play within it. So yes we can do new things with the same materials but we cant change the materials, thats not fanfiction, thats creating a new storyline. Now weve gone quite far in the fleets within that direction. I mean 3.0 was essentially a new series. There was virtually no interaction with any race in the show. The majority of the storylines was composed and between our ideas and races (mostly the reapers, halen and navos). But when we have added something new, it has turned uber and it has gone wrong. Do you know why?
Because you guys crunch the numbers, do maths, overengineer and then mess up the mechanics of the established protocols of the show. The show has flaws, massive ones and we have exposed them and tried to fix them. We know how doing that ends. It ends with the reapers and the swarm.

What you propose would simply give up a standard sci-fi browser-game cookie cutter fleet.

This fleet existed before those "cookie cutter" games, and our ideas are so much more developed and complex that I am slightly insulted on behalf of everyone that you think we have not "pushed the boundaries" enough by creating one of the longest lasting and largest piece of collaorative fanfiction this franchise has. We have done more with the show many, and we have for the most part done it without introducing the kind of radical genes like RKV's and the intense engineering analysis that fiction, especially TV fiction, isnt equipped to deal with. There is a massive argument for not analysising it to the point of oblivion, as you are then left with a sandbox you have no framework for and cant write with.

[Princess Awinita]

Oh I loved the Tollan. They were an advanced race who didn't want to cause devastation and were only forced to use their weapons against earth and even then we don't know if they were developing those weapons to use against anubis or earth.

So I always give them some slack.

They were snooty, though not as snooty as the Tok'ra, {as shown in a game I am part of, my character hates how the Tok'ra are always delaying plans and such, it gets silly at times, but also builds up tension too}, So personally tollan designed stuff I prefer to avoid using. Which is why my character is instead using something her own weapon maker dreamed up out of her insane genious. Namely, Plasma Torpedos, Plasma Bombs, and Plasma lances. Along with turbolaser turrets and magnetic accelerator cannons, orbital docking stations, repair stations, and also orbital defense platforms among other things.

Most of the designs I am using though are partly based off Halo's starship designs, then once with a set design to go off of I just did my own thing and added more, removed other things, etc. I pretty much stripped a UNSC Jericho class frigate to bare internal girder structure and main weapon and put it back, together to my own needs and wants.

So yeah, Tollan were ok for a race, but they just were a bit too snooty for my liking.

[Lt. Col. Mcoy]

my thoughts about the Aschen:

The Aschen have a couple of disadvantages:

-Hyperdrive speed. PLEASE don't screw this up. Whenever there's a problem, you get creativity. Just handing them the blueprints for Goauld hyperdrives would be a huge mistake. Besides, i do not believe the Aschen would integrate alien tech. Ever. I do not believe it's their style. They'd study it from top to bottom, and try produce their own versions of it, with their knowledge, and their technology.

Agreed.

anyway, slow hyperdrive speeds justify a whole lot of things. For example, the Aschen would likely use Baseships. No, not the kind i mentioned before. A more civil oriented factory ship. They act as Aschen centers of Influence, and they're at the core of a Fleet. In a support way, not a combat way.

Got my version of this going, yes.

-Technology level. The Aschen tech level is -IMO- lower than Goauld tech. This is not a bad thing either: the Aschen have the unique trait of technology mastery. Unlike any other race, what i'm setting up with weapons modifications, would be already known and applied by them.

Agreed.

The Aschen would likely utilize Ion Cannons.

Ion cannons in my mind are the most complex and difficult to master technology, and one with the greatest potential benefit. If you know what you're doing, it should be able to far exceed plasma weaponry in terms of effective energy. In short, a -say- 10Kt plasma weapon could be outperformed by a 10 Kt ion cannon. The Ion cannon would allow for far more precise field tuning, allowing for weapon effectivities possibly orders of magnitude greater than Plasma weapons.


The aschen would not be replicator-style in adaption, and Penetration and Immunity would be too advanced for them. IMO, it requires an understanding and finetuning beyond any race in this galaxy. However, the Aschen would have a clear advantage over other races, in that -if Earth does nothing- their weapons would rapidly become more effective with every fight, and that every Aschen adaption would come faster than every Earth adaption.

So, how would you feel about this. (Against LA ships more than Earth.)

Aschen base-ship drops out of hyperspace a ways away from the target. It then opens a window for a smaller, unmanned ship equipped with fast sublight engines and no weapons to approach the target. As hostilities commence, this ship releases a pulse wave (which should be available technology and is known to be effective against LA ships), temporarily disabling the ships. The base-ship then jumps in a squadron (5 or 6) "ion drones", which are basically ion cannon satellites linked to the base-ship's targeting computer. These drones then quickly take out the disabled ships.

Conversely, I could use Tom's AG-manifold bomb, which seems to me quite efficient and usable.

Once the shield frequency modification is known to earth, it would likely be FAR harder to use on Asgard shields than any other. Fortunately, the Aschen would likely have trouble adapting their weapons to Asgard tech too. Meaning that in the Tau'ri-Aschen war, shield and weapon effectivity modifications would be much further apart and much less effective than in the Jaffa-Aschen war. In fact, the Jaffa would likely require the Tok'ra to keep up, although the Jaffa have the advantage of easily modifyable Goauld tech.

Hmm. Agreed.

Mckoy, if a subspace pulse is in any way similar to an EMP, then yes, you should be able to dope the warheads with the right combination of materials to create one.

Fascinating. Are we talking enough power output to create a pulse wave that might overwhelm a 304? Of course, data may be too sparse to say ...

Keep in mind through that the collapsing metric will, to the best of my woefully incomplete knowledge, likely cause fusion or fission if you aren't careful, I would stay way from specifics here.

Are you implying that might mess up my warhead?

As to bypassing shields, it depends, on the outside, the warp metric would be something like a few nanometres at the very maximum, probably into the high picometre range. I would revisit the times we've had particles pass through shields and see what the limitations were.

Hmm. Now, what if I enclosed this warhead in a subspace metric, the existence of such was mentioned in Avenger 2.0? Could this potentially be a weapon usable in hyperspace, do you think?

my educated guess is that the Tollan combined a powerful ion bolt with a carefully calibrated energy field.

In theory, the field Amplitude is it's power, the field frequency is the energy at which it vibrates, and the phase difference indicates amplification or dampening.

i say in theory because i consider a Shield to be both wave and particle, both a field and a structure. so for a shield it would be a bit more complex than for an energy weapon.

anyway, the effectiveness of a weapon could thus be *globally* described as the difference of amplitude, times difference of frequency, times difference in phase.

Phase would be the most important one, as it would indicate amplification or dampening.

now i understand that the wave characteristic of a shield would not be very sinus-like, so things get a little more complex in terms of "matching frequencies".

Fascinating.

because the Aschen have a less advanced but better tech base, all the stuff Earth is about to figure out, is already known to the Aschen. the first few battles won't be impressive (Remember that the Aschen have had no real contact with the galaxy until they reveal themselves), but once everyone thinks it's an easy victory, the Aschen can hit harder and harder.

Hmm.

plus, SGU's Gauntlet shows that when shields are made to operate on a small bandwith, they become vulnerable to many more things. so i think our allies will be invaluable in this Aschen battle. even the LA. mixed fleets would make for far more difficult (for the Aschen) fights

Yes.

yes. the Aschen should not have phase tech.

Oh, quite.

i'm thinking in terms of an atrocious act by UNEC. My current thought is a Horizon Weapons Module launched at their homeworld. this time, with 10 Mark IX gatebusters in stead of 6 with 4 decoys. It should produce sufficient energy to instantly overcome Aschen city shielding and produce enough radiation, heat and dust to render it utterly uninhabitable.

it should also provide opportunity for a new voice in the Aschen. Practically the next day, the Aschen show up at Heliopolis, proposing a truce where the Aschen get to keep a nice share of their new territory. and they'll fire on whoever gets on their territory.

Hmm.

first off, i'd like more tactics in stargate combat than a mere "whoever has the biggest shields and most DPS".

Oh, I think we all agree there.

[thekillman]

Because you guys crunch the numbers, do maths, overengineer and then mess up the mechanics of the established protocols of the show. The show has flaws, massive ones and we have exposed them and tried to fix them. We know how doing that ends. It ends with the reapers and the swarm.

i will never deny that i screwed up in 3.0. which is why i pulled my people out.

the problem is, that once Economy and Industry go out of the window, Stargate's regular "balance equation" goes to infinity. in simple terms, there is no balance once that happened. and it happened in 3.0, and none of use were capable of working in such a universe.

which is precisely why i want it like this. i want to prevent that. i want to prevent a fleet where engineering and industry are neglected, or made obsolete.

Aschen base-ship drops out of hyperspace a ways away from the target. It then opens a window for a smaller, unmanned ship equipped with fast sublight engines and no weapons to approach the target. As hostilities commence, this ship releases a pulse wave (which should be available technology and is known to be effective against LA ships), temporarily disabling the ships. The base-ship then jumps in a squadron (5 or 6) "ion drones", which are basically ion cannon satellites linked to the base-ship's targeting computer. These drones then quickly take out the disabled ships.

i have no idea how this pulse wave would work precisely. for Alkesh that strategy works, but it seems like an incredible stretch that the Ha'tak, Aggregator and Ko'tak classes do not have some kind of shielding against that. even design-based shielding.

now it's not entirely what i meant. i'll put it this way:


The Aschen baseship is the fleet core. it remains at a safe distance from known targets and enemies, while at a strategic location (galaxy wise). in essence, they're fallback positions of the Aschen, where other races would have planetside bases etc.

the Baseship has a significant Drone Escort, coupled with a miner fleet. the Baseship uses local resources to produce food, spare parts and fuel. if it comes to combat, the Baseship runs first, shoots later.

the Aschen fleet assigns a number of ships to a battle group. this involves a Bore ship, a ship with overdesigned hyperdrives to give a better hyperdrive performance. these Bore Ships carry the battlegroup to a location near the target.



from there, all options are open. two of several possibilities:

1: the battle is fought with sub-100m strike craft. this means carriers stay out of the battle, launch many dozens upon dozens of strike, bomber and bore drones, which hyperspace to the battlefield and attack. mostly against "softer" and smaller targets, IE, Valkyries, Alkesh, and planetary defence systems

2: the battle is fought with a combo of Gunship (100-150 meter) and frigate(200-300m) ships. against bigger ships (IE, Deadalus, Ha'tak). these are still Drones by the way.


Strikecraft:

Strike drones:
Something like a fighter. can take both fighter and bomber roles. is equipped with mid-ROF, mid-damage weaponry, several turrets.

Bomb Drones:
carry powerful Ion Bomb generators. Ion bombs are extremely overdesigned, unstable energy weapons. while they have significantly more powerful bolts, they'd normally disintegrate after travelling a kilometer or so, requiring rather up and close combat. they also carry several nuclear missiles.

Bore Drones:
Drones with hyperdrives, they act as a small variant of the Bore Ship. they're larger and bulkier than the other drones, and immediately jump out of firing range after dropping the drone fleet.


Mid-range Craft:

Gunship Drones:
Equipped with multi-barrel high ROF turrets, these circle their targets while continuously pounding them with ion fire. the high ROF ensures they can target both small and larger ships.

Frigate Drones:
Equipped with a triple, fixed Particle Beam cannon, Frigrates are the more stationary attack drones. the Particle beams generate a continuous load on the target shields, slowly draining them while also making the shields more prone to damage bleeding. they carry mostly heavy weaponry to deal high damage to targets.



Support Craft:

Strikedrone Carriers:

circa 300-400 meter ships, Strikedrone Carriers (as the name suggests) carry Strikedrones. the Carriers do not just carry, but also produce and maintain the drones, while powerful computer systems steer the drones to their targets. manned.

Bore Ships:

Bore Ships are best described as a superstructure surrounding a hyperdrive/powercore combo. the extreme hyperdrive size ensures a higher-than-average efficiency, while the specialization ensures a greater-than-average hyperdrive speed. although still slow by galactic standards, Boreships make Aschen fleets much more mobile and much faster than expected.
as Bore ships are vulnerable, and expensive assets, the Aschen always ensure they're well-protected, and maintain a "strategic withdraw" policy on this kind of assets. manned by a skeleton crew.

Baseships.
Baseships never enter the fight, in stead staying back and supporting the fleet, while acting as a forward factory station. they only produce components, so the actual drone production happens on Carriers and on production ships accompanying the fleet.


NOTE:

the Aschen operate entire fleets. Fleets should be seen as the whole logistic and industrial train around a war fleet. the actual fighting force of a Fleet is much smaller than the full capacity of the fleet. if 30 Drones enter a fight, at least 30 more are in the fleet to protect the carriers and Baseship.

this also means that, should the resistance be greater than expected, carrier protection can be sacrificed for crucial reinforcements (at the cost of the enemy potentially taking out your local support group).


so Fleet = stationary
Battlegroups go out and fight.
Battlegroups divide in a Support Group (carriers and Boreships staying behind) and an Assault group.


this means that the Aschen rarely if ever need to haul supplies from forward bases to their homeworld and back. ships don't need to return home to repair.

it also means that, story-wise, we have multiple targets of opportunity. we could try and take out a Baseship, we could try and take out the Local support group.

[thekillman]

as a separate reply:

Hmm. Now, what if I enclosed this warhead in a subspace metric, the existence of such was mentioned in Avenger 2.0? Could this potentially be a weapon usable in hyperspace, do you think?

any weapon can be used in hyperspace. the one occasion in which it was mentioned (New Order) that it could not be used, was because the Asgard ship required all its power to catch up with the Replicator ship. the massive problem is the difficulty of fighting in Hyperspace: you need to enter the exact same window as your opponent, then you need to catch up. and it also means you both need the same hyperdrive