Gateworld Virtual Fleet 4.0 - Discussion thread

[Crazy Tom]

ROFL. SO TRUE. Also very unhelpful.

Alright, I'm nipping this in the bud and, as EDI would say 'calling you out on your bull****".

I will remind you that I have taken all critiques that people gave me and worked with them to make my designs both fresh and in keeping with SG lore. I would also remind you that the debate was had, and my designs accepted, whatever you agree or were the minority I can't recall, but the fact is they passed the peer review process.
Now, I admit, I like to push the boundary, yes, my initial designs are always pretty wacky. But I take what people say and alter them, until they've evolved into something that is more fitting to the universe and makes most parties happy. I have never, to the extent of my knowledge, ignored a legitimate complaint against anything I designed (If I did, I urge you to call me out on my bull**** immediately so that can be corrected.).

In summary:

Spoiler:

RENEGADE INTERRUPT

I've had enough of your snide allegations!

SHEPPARD PAWNCH

I keep returning to this "sandbox" metaphor. TPTB created a universe with its own established mechanics and laws based on the hypotheticals of science and technology we know right now. When establishing those rules it did not include or incorporate others. We should respect that and in our fleet and our extrapolations be mindful of it. Our role is not to change that sandbox but play within it. So yes we can do new things with the same materials but we cant change the materials, thats not fanfiction, thats creating a new storyline. Now weve gone quite far in the fleets within that direction. I mean 3.0 was essentially a new series. There was virtually no interaction with any race in the show. The majority of the storylines was composed and between our ideas and races (mostly the reapers, halen and navos). But when we have added something new, it has turned uber and it has gone wrong. Do you know why?
Because you guys crunch the numbers, do maths, overengineer and then mess up the mechanics of the established protocols of the show. The show has flaws, massive ones and we have exposed them and tried to fix them. We know how doing that ends. It ends with the reapers and the swarm.


This fleet existed before those "cookie cutter" games, and our ideas are so much more developed and complex that I am slightly insulted on behalf of everyone that you think we have not "pushed the boundaries" enough by creating one of the longest lasting and largest piece of collaorative fanfiction this franchise has. We have done more with the show many, and we have for the most part done it without introducing the kind of radical genes like RKV's and the intense engineering analysis that fiction, especially TV fiction, isnt equipped to deal with. There is a massive argument for not analysising it to the point of oblivion, as you are then left with a sandbox you have no framework for and cant write with.

Alright, and on a last note, the RKVs from 3.0 were no different than the Tollan having Ion canons as their staple weapon, or the goa'uld using plasma bolters. The RKVs had certain advantage and disadvantages, the CSN used them as their primary armament because they played to the strengths of their military doctrine. It worked well against the Reapers because they don't use conventional shields. But in the end, they still had the yield one expects out of most mainstream SG warships, it was just packaged differently.

Fascinating. Are we talking enough power output to create a pulse wave that might overwhelm a 304? Of course, data may be too sparse to say ...

Precisely, I really can't speculate with any accuracy, it's up to you.

Are you implying that might mess up my warhead?

I wouldn't use a lot of material that might fusion if you want to use the warhead as an EMP type. If you want to preserve the ship you've disabled, a close in fusion detonation would be unwelcome. That's another beauty of the system, just load up the warhead with whatever composition of fuel you want to achieve a specific effect. Very flexible.

as a separate reply:



any weapon can be used in hyperspace. the one occasion in which it was mentioned (New Order) that it could not be used, was because the Asgard ship required all its power to catch up with the Replicator ship. the massive problem is the difficulty of fighting in Hyperspace: you need to enter the exact same window as your opponent, then you need to catch up. and it also means you both need the same hyperdrive

What he said.

[thekillman]

I have never, to the extent of my knowledge, ignored a legitimate complaint against anything I designed

because canonically, there´s nothing against it. which is precisely the problem.


it is all up to what we make of it. and i want to keep off the super-production methods, neural nets etc for as long as possible, because it thoroughly screws up the power bases, and makes for a far more difficult to manage universe.

the problem is that economy is one of the factors keeping Stargate within bounds. and until i have anchored it some more, blowing up that pillar makes it even more unstable.

Stargate really doesn't have a lot of rules when it comes to technology. a fact -perhaps ironically- made clear to me even more when reading the Orion's Arm wiki. if we apply Stargate's rules to that, then there's nothing in place to stop any earth-like planet from acquiring -as Orion's Arm calls it- Clarke tech. (AKA godtech).


The fleets won't be cookie-cutter for as long as we acknowledge that the races we have, have advantages and disadvantages, different industries, different thoughts, different strategies. it won't be cookie-cutter for as long as we realize, that the status quo shifts, and that sometimes designs need to be very specific, and sometimes very broad.


there are "technology cheats" as i call them. i think you'd consider it more like "tech for the desperate". Naquahdriah is one such resource and technology base. it's far more powerful than Naquahdah, and allows a race to "cheat" the generic power density rules. but it's a technology that comes with it's downsides. it's difficult to control, difficult to find. it could be worth the hassle, or not.


there are many more possibilities, and may of them have not even been explored, only named.

the Aschen, right now, have several unique combinations of strenghts and weaknesses, allowing for new and creative designs that otherwise would be impractical.

[Crazy Tom]

You know, as soon as I finish midterms, I'm going to spend an hour or two dealing with the economy aspect. We really need some rules of thumb, maybe a rough link between GDP and production capability. Hmm... maybe make it a function of technology, population, available resources and importance weight factors...

edit:
PS. I don't think we'll have a big problem with introducing new tech if we cheat a bit and do it like they did in Mass Effect: the tech is there, it affects the universe, a lot, but it's not used to the extent real life would suggest, so we make up some fictitious to cripple it a bit, and we're golden.

PPS. Have you read the Spacebattles.com page on TV tropes yet? The opening quotes made my day.

[thekillman]

We really need some rules of thumb, maybe a rough link between GDP and production capability. Hmm... maybe make it a function of technology, population, available resources and importance weight factors...

it depends on many factors. like production technology itself, the general tech level, production investment, infrastructure, population, education levels, etc.


new tech depends on the "tech base". if it's completely alien, we might need complete aliens to introduce it to us, so to speak.


oh and no i haven't. link?


EDIT:

re: production.

there are certain things to consider. Earth has advanced production techniques. The jaffa do not, but do possess large amounts of rather cheap labor.

[Crazy Tom]

it depends on many factors. like production technology itself, the general tech level, production investment, infrastructure, population, education levels, etc.


new tech depends on the "tech base". if it's completely alien, we might need complete aliens to introduce it to us, so to speak.


oh and no i haven't. link?


EDIT:

re: production.

there are certain things to consider. Earth has advanced production techniques. The jaffa do not, but do possess large amounts of rather cheap labor.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Spacebattles

I was thinking more in terms of GDP, if I could draw parallels between alien cultures and earth societies at some pointing history, I can pin a GDP plot that shows the increase in their production over time so we could extraqpolate how much they can produce at any one time.
I have a feeling Earth is lagging behind Ashae in terms of raw numbers of goods produced. It might be better for them to flood the galactic market with goods in an attempt at economic warfare. Which actually falls in with their MO extremely well now that I think about it. Oh! Oh! We can draw parallels with China's economic rise for a bit of extra social commentary!

[thekillman]

I have a feeling Earth is lagging behind Ashae in terms of raw numbers of goods produced

yes. if Earth shows up with 5 ships to fight, the Aschen will likely bring 50 to the fight.

[Crazy Tom]

yes. if Earth shows up with 5 ships to fight, the Aschen will likely bring 50 to the fight.

I was thinking more in terms of 50 Ashen iPods to five of ours.

[thekillman]

the aschen currently hold the technology card :little is known about it, so i don't think it's good idea to flood the markets with it.

[Crazy Tom]

the aschen currently hold the technology card :little is known about it, so i don't think it's good idea to flood the markets with it.

It's not like they're releasing anything Earth can't do. Why not manufacture large amounts of (to them) obsolescent tech for foreign export? Creates a future opportunities for further action, denies their enemies a possible market, makes their customers subtly dependent on them. Subtle, long term, minimal effort for large gain.
The more I think about it, the more I like it.

[Lt. Col. Mcoy]

i have no idea how this pulse wave would work precisely. for Alkesh that strategy works, but it seems like an incredible stretch that the Ha'tak, Aggregator and Ko'tak classes do not have some kind of shielding against that. even design-based shielding.

Yes, I was talking primarily against Al'kesh or smaller type vessels.

Though, in principle, I see no reason why a pulse wave of sufficient magnitude and frequency shouldn't be able to overwhelm at least an Ori-war era Ha'tak. But I'll give you defenses on the Aggregators and the Ko'tak, sure. Stands to reason, anyway.

The Aschen baseship is the fleet core. it remains at a safe distance from known targets and enemies, while at a strategic location (galaxy wise). in essence, they're fallback positions of the Aschen, where other races would have planetside bases etc.

the Baseship has a significant Drone Escort, coupled with a miner fleet. the Baseship uses local resources to produce food, spare parts and fuel. if it comes to combat, the Baseship runs first, shoots later.

the Aschen fleet assigns a number of ships to a battle group. this involves a Bore ship, a ship with overdesigned hyperdrives to give a better hyperdrive performance. these Bore Ships carry the battlegroup to a location near the target.



from there, all options are open. two of several possibilities:

1: the battle is fought with sub-100m strike craft. this means carriers stay out of the battle, launch many dozens upon dozens of strike, bomber and bore drones, which hyperspace to the battlefield and attack. mostly against "softer" and smaller targets, IE, Valkyries, Alkesh, and planetary defence systems

2: the battle is fought with a combo of Gunship (100-150 meter) and frigate(200-300m) ships. against bigger ships (IE, Deadalus, Ha'tak). these are still Drones by the way.


Strikecraft:

Strike drones:
Something like a fighter. can take both fighter and bomber roles. is equipped with mid-ROF, mid-damage weaponry, several turrets.

Bomb Drones:
carry powerful Ion Bomb generators. Ion bombs are extremely overdesigned, unstable energy weapons. while they have significantly more powerful bolts, they'd normally disintegrate after travelling a kilometer or so, requiring rather up and close combat. they also carry several nuclear missiles.

Bore Drones:
Drones with hyperdrives, they act as a small variant of the Bore Ship. they're larger and bulkier than the other drones, and immediately jump out of firing range after dropping the drone fleet.


Mid-range Craft:

Gunship Drones:
Equipped with multi-barrel high ROF turrets, these circle their targets while continuously pounding them with ion fire. the high ROF ensures they can target both small and larger ships.

Frigate Drones:
Equipped with a triple, fixed Particle Beam cannon, Frigrates are the more stationary attack drones. the Particle beams generate a continuous load on the target shields, slowly draining them while also making the shields more prone to damage bleeding. they carry mostly heavy weaponry to deal high damage to targets.



Support Craft:

Strikedrone Carriers:

circa 300-400 meter ships, Strikedrone Carriers (as the name suggests) carry Strikedrones. the Carriers do not just carry, but also produce and maintain the drones, while powerful computer systems steer the drones to their targets. manned.

Bore Ships:

Bore Ships are best described as a superstructure surrounding a hyperdrive/powercore combo. the extreme hyperdrive size ensures a higher-than-average efficiency, while the specialization ensures a greater-than-average hyperdrive speed. although still slow by galactic standards, Boreships make Aschen fleets much more mobile and much faster than expected.
as Bore ships are vulnerable, and expensive assets, the Aschen always ensure they're well-protected, and maintain a "strategic withdraw" policy on this kind of assets. manned by a skeleton crew.

Baseships.
Baseships never enter the fight, in stead staying back and supporting the fleet, while acting as a forward factory station. they only produce components, so the actual drone production happens on Carriers and on production ships accompanying the fleet.

I like your bore-ships and base-ships. I'm skeptical of the need for a carrier, though. It seems to me its operation could be just as well split between the other two; the base-ship for production and the bore-ship for carrying. Seems more efficient, but that's just me.

For the drones, I'd collapse the attack drones into a single type, maybe with variants. Standard should be multi-turreted with high-output, offensive versions of those PDL's they had in 2010, with additional missile armament (nuclear, kinetic, biological, what-have-you). The bore drones are good. I'd say all about the size of a Tel'tak or smaller.

For the mid-rangers, I'm skeptical. I would collapse them into one class, basically a long particle cannon (why do you say tri-barreled?) running the length, with an outer armament of ion cannons for offense, and more of those PDL things for defense. About the size of an Al'kesh, maybe a bit bigger.

NOTE:

the Aschen operate entire fleets. Fleets should be seen as the whole logistic and industrial train around a war fleet. the actual fighting force of a Fleet is much smaller than the full capacity of the fleet. if 30 Drones enter a fight, at least 30 more are in the fleet to protect the carriers and Baseship.

this also means that, should the resistance be greater than expected, carrier protection can be sacrificed for crucial reinforcements (at the cost of the enemy potentially taking out your local support group).


so Fleet = stationary
Battlegroups go out and fight.
Battlegroups divide in a Support Group (carriers and Boreships staying behind) and an Assault group.

Yes, I understand the concept of a fleet.

this means that the Aschen rarely if ever need to haul supplies from forward bases to their homeworld and back. ships don't need to return home to repair.

it also means that, story-wise, we have multiple targets of opportunity. we could try and take out a Baseship, we could try and take out the Local support group.

Hmm.

any weapon can be used in hyperspace. the one occasion in which it was mentioned (New Order) that it could not be used, was because the Asgard ship required all its power to catch up with the Replicator ship. the massive problem is the difficulty of fighting in Hyperspace: you need to enter the exact same window as your opponent, then you need to catch up. and it also means you both need the same hyperdrive

I know. That's what I meant though; would it ease the power requirements. I know it's possible.

I wouldn't use a lot of material that might fusion if you want to use the warhead as an EMP type. If you want to preserve the ship you've disabled, a close in fusion detonation would be unwelcome. That's another beauty of the system, just load up the warhead with whatever composition of fuel you want to achieve a specific effect. Very flexible.

Hmm.

It's not like they're releasing anything Earth can't do. Why not manufacture large amounts of (to them) obsolescent tech for foreign export? Creates a future opportunities for further action, denies their enemies a possible market, makes their customers subtly dependent on them. Subtle, long term, minimal effort for large gain.
The more I think about it, the more I like it.

Interesting.

[thekillman]

Though, in principle, I see no reason why a pulse wave of sufficient magnitude and frequency shouldn't be able to overwhelm at least an Ori-war era Ha'tak. But I'll give you defenses on the Aggregators and the Ko'tak, sure. Stands to reason, anyway.

in theory, any ship can be overwhelmed. but at some point, some pulsewave generator or missile or drone won't cut it. to bring down bigger ships, you'd need stronger and stronger pulse generators.

Seems more efficient, but that's just me.

you are right, but my reason was a different one: spread of losses. my fear as a designer is, that loosing either would become a blow of way too serious magnitude. at least a separate carrier could, for example, cover for the Boreship. it's a matter of tactics and spread of losses.

technology-wise, there's no reason not to make the Boreship a carrier too: i must note that in my little display, the 100+ meter ships are not carried ON a ship, but by the boreship (in it's hyperspace corridor).

I'd say all about the size of a Tel'tak or smaller.

depends on what you want. bigger = better firepower. smaller = easier to produce, harder to hit. note that there is a threshold for size: at some point, the Aschen would be unable to mount sufficiently effective shields to withstand Point Defence technology.

i was thinking of the Aschen using Segmented Shielding. in essence, spreading the load of shield generation over several generators, allowing for directional shields. each generator would feature a safety factor of 1.5, meaning that if a shield gets targeted from one side, it could draw power from the other generators and increase the shield strength with 50%.


anyway, i'd go for 2 types: alkesh size and tel'tak size.

(why do you say tri-barreled?)

not sure. sorry, went a step too far there. damn, my Design and Construction lessons failed me there.

Yes, I understand the concept of a fleet.

thank god. i had the feeling i was being enormously vague there.

EDIT:

regarding the Aschen, a lot of things are open, and a lot of design choices have to be made. there are no real "bad decisions". just choices

[Lt. Col. Mcoy]

in theory, any ship can be overwhelmed. but at some point, some pulsewave generator or missile or drone won't cut it. to bring down bigger ships, you'd need stronger and stronger pulse generators.

Agreed.

you are right, but my reason was a different one: spread of losses. my fear as a designer is, that loosing either would become a blow of way too serious magnitude. at least a separate carrier could, for example, cover for the Boreship. it's a matter of tactics and spread of losses.

Well, in theory, neither ship is going to be in an engagement that goes as planned: if the enemy gets close, they jump away. If they can't jump away, you're already screwed, so it seems to me that you're actually consolidating losses to lose one capital ship in that situation rather than (potentially) two.

technology-wise, there's no reason not to make the Boreship a carrier too: i must note that in my little display, the 100+ meter ships are not carried ON a ship, but by the boreship (in it's hyperspace corridor).

I figured.

depends on what you want. bigger = better firepower. smaller = easier to produce, harder to hit. note that there is a threshold for size: at some point, the Aschen would be unable to mount sufficiently effective shields to withstand Point Defence technology.

i was thinking of the Aschen using Segmented Shielding. in essence, spreading the load of shield generation over several generators, allowing for directional shields. each generator would feature a safety factor of 1.5, meaning that if a shield gets targeted from one side, it could draw power from the other generators and increase the shield strength with 50%.

I'm actually feeling unshielded for the smaller drones. Aschen shield generators must be fairly large -- it's the only legitimate reason I can think of for their suspiciously convenient absence around the Stargate in 2010. Unless they don't have shields at all, which is another option, but one people don't seem to like.

Then again, the bio-weapon looked kind of shielded ... hmm. Maybe it's just a plothole.

thank god. i had the feeling i was being enormously vague there.

Well, in fairness, a real "fleet" is pretty vague to the point of almost not existing. The real work is done by task forces.



Now then, how do we feel about nanite-delivered biological weapons?

[thekillman]

Well, in theory, neither ship is going to be in an engagement that goes as planned: if the enemy gets close, they jump away. If they can't jump away, you're already screwed, so it seems to me that you're actually consolidating losses to lose one capital ship in that situation rather than (potentially) two.

or you could sacrifice a carrier for a boreship.

I'm actually feeling unshielded for the smaller drones. Aschen shield generators must be fairly large -- it's the only legitimate reason I can think of for their suspiciously convenient absence around the Stargate in 2010. Unless they don't have shields at all, which is another option, but one people don't seem to like.

Then again, the bio-weapon looked kind of shielded ... hmm. Maybe it's just a plothole.

power density is the reason the Goauld never made fighter-based hyperdrives. so it's likely a technology problem.

and remember that the Aschen did not account for time travel, so a shielded gate really wasn't needed, as the damage that could be done by it would've been -in their view- very limited.

Now then, how do we feel about nanite-delivered biological weapons?

bad. the more i read on nanites, the less i like them. i see a bright future for biological cell programming.

besides, the Aschen don't really use Bioweapons. it seemed more like a last resort than a common tactic. kind of like nukes in real life (as opposed to Stargate).

[Lt. Col. Mcoy]

bad. the more i read on nanites, the less i like them. i see a bright future for biological cell programming.

"Like them" as in "think they'd be useful" or "like them" as in "think they'd be safe"?

besides, the Aschen don't really use Bioweapons. it seemed more like a last resort than a common tactic. kind of like nukes in real life (as opposed to Stargate).

Really?

They pretty obviously -- not explicitly, but pretty clearly -- used them in the alternate war with the Goa'uld. They almost annihilated the symbiote population.

[Crazy Tom]

Mckoy: Limitations of Nanoweapons.