Gateworld Virtual Fleet 4.0 - Discussion thread

[bradly08]

Guys I think that yes there will be a few of the old mind set Lucian Alliance members who are there only for power and wealth however I do find it hard to believe that no "smart" people could find a way to use the Lucian Alliance for good rather then evil.

I could see someone in the upper ranks who actually fought for the betterment of humanity instead of just being greedy. I do admit thought that those people who want to use the Lucian Alliance for good are few and in-between and will be the vast minority of the Lucian Alliance

The way I look at it is, some are in it for the money, some it are in for the power, some "just want to watch the world burn" and some will be forced in. But there will be those rare few who want to use the LA to make the galaxy a better place. But i can't see those people being too high up, to get into any situation of reall power, you have to go agaisnt the very morals you are trying to uphold

[thekillman]

Guys I think that yes there will be a few of the old mind set Lucian Alliance members who are there only for power and wealth however I do find it hard to believe that no "smart" people could find a way to use the Lucian Alliance for good rather then evil.

I could see someone in the upper ranks who actually fought for the betterment of humanity instead of just being greedy. I do admit thought that those people who want to use the Lucian Alliance for good are few and in-between and will be the vast minority of the Lucian Alliance

i do not believe in the concept of pure evil. i do not believe in the idea that everyone who opposes Earth and allies is evil, wants to do nothing but harm to the galaxy and desires nothing but power and money.


why do you go to work? for the money. but it has to be a good job. otherwise you'll get bored fast and it's a negative influence. sometimes you just get a job offer that's great, even though it was nothing like you intended to do and turns out to be great.


to say that money and power is the main drive of the LA is IMHO ridiculous. power and money comes with ranking. a human General has more money and -yes- power than some simple soldier. for the LA, it works on a bigger scale, but does a General become a General for the money and/or power, of because he's damn good at his job? there are plenty of people who consider money and power perks of the job in stead of the main reason to do that job. i think SG1 placed them unjustly, as some simple alliance between simple, stupid criminals who happened to stumble upon a few goauld ships and who found an addictive corn and started to sell it.


i give that Alliance 1 year. then it's dead because they're too dumb to live. seriously, they made the goauld look smart. Company of Thieves gave me a bit of hope. Bounty truely showed that they weren't complete fools. SGU shows more of what the alliance could become. and now i work further on that.

i constantly notice -especially on SGU folders- that the LA isn't taken as a credible threat even though they are. and it's because of the damage that SG1 has done to them. namely ridiculing them. but there ARE smart people. like Odai Ventrell. he's not stupid. Varro isn't stupid. Gynn isn't stupid. and those people will take over. intelligent people who see a chance, an opportunity, and put a bullet through some stupid LA person and just take his place

because seriously, if the LA was like in SG1, it could NEVER have lasted the time it has lasted

No doubt they have different reasons, some of them may even be sort of good, but ultimately it comes down to the fact that these people have a very weak internal structure, their constant competition makes them distrustful of one another, and no government is ever going to emerge from that, no stable one. Not unless one of the Lords kills the rest and takes their domains, then starts organizing it along official lines... hmmm, I smell a possible plotline there.

the current seventeen lords know damn well that internal strive will destroy them. they believe in competition. they like that. but too much strive destroys them. then again, if someone proves to be weak, that person will most likely be, well, replaced.


i just hope to make things clearer with my story. SG1 leaves it vague wheter they're Mafia or Terrorists. they rather clearly do both. i think they're terrorists with mafia properties rather than mafia with terrorist properties

[Crazy Tom]

Man, you're living with your head in the clouds on this one. Nobody said they're stupid, but they are the Mafia IN SPACE. Delusions of grandeur aside, their motivations can always be traced back to money and power. Always. And anyone who thinks otherwise will be sent somewhere where they can't do anything serious.

[thekillman]

Nobody said they're stupid,

you did

[Crazy Tom]

you did

There's a difference between stupidity and a lack of serious scientific or technical know how. It's the later they lack.

[bradly08]

Killman, while yes there may be some who are not in it for the power or money; there WILL be people who, like the Dark knight says "just want to watch the world burn" Trust me I know

[thekillman]

Killman, while yes there may be some who are not in it for the power or money; there WILL be people who, like the Dark knight says "just want to watch the world burn" Trust me I know

i know that too. like i said it's complex.

There's a difference between stupidity and a lack of serious scientific or technical know how. It's the later they lack.

Earth isn't the only earth-like planet out there. besides there is such a thing as "outsourcing"

[Crazy Tom]

Earth isn't the only earth-like planet out there. besides there is such a thing as "outsourcing"

Nobody's going to deal with them. Not to an extent that would let them build a decent tech base, even if they weren't inherent scavengers. Their entire setup impedes tech advancement. I can't see why your trying to argue that their some sort of power that can challenge one of the in-play factions in a straight up fight.

[thekillman]

Nobody's going to deal with them. Not to an extent that would let them build a decent tech base, even if they weren't inherent scavengers. Their entire setup impedes tech advancement. I can't see why your trying to argue that their some sort of power that can challenge one of the in-play factions in a straight up fight.

everyone has a price.

[Lt. Col. Mcoy]

Look, ultimately the LA is a versatile enough to handle all of these interpretations.

'killman can write stories about the LA where there are some guys who really want to help the galaxy. I can't call them good, because 'killman's denial of absolute evil also removes the possibility of good from the picture. But I'll call them "decent". I.e., like the LA version of Lord Yu.

I'll write stories where the LA is a complex, fractured criminal syndicate with deep problems and also some pluses. They will, however, be unmistakeably bad at the end of the day.

Tom can write stories where they're Mafia IN SPACE.

The point is, in all of these, we see PART of what the LA is. And, what's more, each of us will interpret the events of the others' stories in a different light, leading to more diversity and an ultimately more comprehensive view. This provides a realistic and (most importantly) in-universe holistic view of the LA. Observer bias included.

[Exthalion]

And I can write stories where they are vermin the Alfar have the loathsome job of removing from protected planets.

[Lt. Col. Mcoy]

Yeah . . .

I almost included a line about that (the Alfar's beef with the Alliance) in Chapter 4 of my story. It may appear in Chapter 5 -- stay tuned.

[Exthalion]

Tom, I have sent you another e-mail on the solid light discussion.

[thekillman]

The point is, in all of these, we see PART of what the LA is. And, what's more, each of us will interpret the events of the others' stories in a different light, leading to more diversity and an ultimately more comprehensive view. This provides a realistic and (most importantly) in-universe holistic view of the LA. Observer bias included.

nobody is pure good and nobody is pure evil. pure good would imply anything you do is evil, since there are always clashes of interest. do something and it will probably harm someone. do nothing while having the power to intervene would be evil. you can't be pure good because it's impossible, just as you can not be pure evil.

But I'll call them "decent". I.e., like the LA version of Lord Yu.

i'd call them "sufficiently intelligent to look beyond their own little shell. sufficiently intelligent not to repeat the mistakes the Goauld and Ori made. sufficiently intelligent not to be like SG1's LA. "

I'll write stories where the LA is a complex, fractured criminal syndicate with deep problems and also some pluses. They will, however, be unmistakeably bad at the end of the day.

mmmm. i think i implied that it's not all butterflies and sunshine between the lords in the very first chapter, where Omari has revealed the location of the base to the Tau'ri as a revenge.

anyway if i have the time to wrap up the current story, i'll go show some more of the Lords.





oh and about Bias: i'm writing from an LA POV. you are writing from an Earth POV. and since earth more or less considers anyone not allied a potential threat and in some cases an enemy...

besides SGU shows nicely how earth thinks of the LA (gang with spaceships, criminals, terrorists) and how the LA see themselves (revolutionaries/umbrella for the weak) and how the LA see earth (lazy bunch of people who care about nothing but Earth and colonies and their security. and on a lesser priority, their allies). earth meanwhile portrays itself as the hero of the galaxy. which -if anyone watches any bit of politics/news- is pure bullcrap. Earth did it decently but that's more because of a handful of good people in the right places. the NID didn't play so nicely, and there have been SG teams who did some aweful things. and SG1 destroyed a (granted, nazi) civilization. really, if they treated earth that way for the stupid we've done, that stargate would've gone in our sun.

[blackluster]

I'd agree that the Lucian Alliance is big enough to be diverse enough to contain a wide range of cultures. The pirate/mafia part is probably the biggest and most publicly recognizable, but I suspect there are other parts that are maybe far more stable and conventional in terms of government that are part of the alliance for security reasons. For instance, there may be a member state with strong technical know how that operates as part of a security deal within the alliance providing some substantial industrial support. The alliance as a whole is certainly too big for such arrangements not to exist.

SGU characters like Varro and Simeon prove there are aspects of the Alliance that operate soldiers with experience, training, command structure and counter-intelligence to rival any professional military. Characters like Ginn demonstrate scientific and technical pursuit that can produce very real technological threats.

In some kind of war situation, it's a toss up whether earth would ever truly have to face the combined might of the LA since they probably have internal complications in terms of alliance treaties and how they mobilize for a large conflict. It would depend on how a campaign is conducted against them, but I suspect realistically, Earth would probably only have to fight a few of the total number of factions at any given time.

Their political motivations would probably be as varied as the technology they could field, though the small force presented in SGU would probably represent the bare minimum in terms of tech and training earth would be facing in a conflict. (I doubt any other more backward worlds would take part). More technological foes in the Alliance may provide a stiffer challenge but their chosen approach to warfare or even diplomacy might be a bit different (obviously that wouldn't violate any clause of the agreement with their alliance partners though who could say on what grounds every group joins the Alliance).