Is it logical for Carter to go off-world?

[Cautious Explorer]

As you say Sam didn't go alone, was accompanied by 1,2 SGA teams. Is just that she was in charge of the mission. Like i said, i think that the situation required someone with a higher rank than major, to coordonate it, not speaking about field experience. Maby was missed, but the rest of Atlantis teams has quite few encouters with the Wraith, from which we trieid in fact to hide for the last 3 seasons. Is not like SGC/Goa'uld relation, is totally different.

And i repeat if Sheppard and his team would have been available, Sam would have not participate to the rescue. Only this team has a decent experience.

Interesting logic. No one with a rank less than lt. col. should coordinate a rescue mission? Regardless of how much field experience a major might have, he shouldn't lead a rescue mission?

Major Lorne led the search for Sheppard's team in Lost Boys. Major Sheppard led the military contingent on Atlantis the first year of their mission. I don't think either one of them were incompetent.

I think the rescue mission could have been handled quite easily by the SGA teams -- no Col. necessary.

I don't know where you're getting the idea that no other team except Sheppard's has off-world experience. What do you think the other teams do all day?

I'm not following your last remark. The Atlantis expedition does have a lot of experience with the Wraith. They haven't just been hiding and running from them. How does Carter's experience with the Goa'uld relate here?

I can't say for sure of course, but i can speculate. Sam is not the character to need 9 hours to reach a simple decison, the only decision in that situation: leting Ladon Radim leave to question his prisoners. Waiting 9 hours to FINALY do the same thing, trust him and leting him go, resulted practicaly in Sheppard death without the result button

You cannot keep a demnitary prisoner like a potential bargain chip or for torture (?) and on the other hand throw the clisee 'we don't negociate with terorists'. That's hypocrisy.

Carter would have done whatever the writers needed her to do. But sure, we can guess what she might have done. Maybe Carter would have trusted Ladon sooner, John would have been rescued after the second feeding, retired from the airforce and a new military commander would have been sent to Atlantis. Maybe Carter would have turned Ladon over to Kolya right away. Who knows? I haven't seen Carter make any tough decisions yet, so I have no idea how she thinks.

[prion]

The commander of a military facility like Atlantis, can go in missions. There is no rule to prohibit this.

The important missions, like this one is imperative to be lead by the ranking officer or the officer with the biggest experience in the field or those sort of missions, and this is ... Samantha Carter.

Yes, this is another the reason why the command of Atlantis was given to Sam, a character who acumulated a huge combat/field experience that can be used in certain situatuations and provide more writing solutions.

If TPTB would have wanted a desk bureaucrat with superiority complexes, they would have kept Weir or bring another black suit or red blouse to dramatise every situation. If you are arguing every thing related to Sam, you in fact arguing the decision to bring Sam over to Atlantis. I think we pass that, there is no return, TPTB already made the call. We now can either whine or enjoy the show.

And also don't forget that Lorne is not main cast and Sam is, no matter how much some of you would want, so i don't expect to see Lorne more than Sam. The question is, why do you?

No, the top officer doesn't go running off to save people. He/she assigns capable people to do it. The commanding officer is supposed to deal with the nasty logistics, sending people out to imminent doom, etc., not going out and doing the job themselves. That's war. Now yes, there was another jumper with potential redshirts in it (we'll assume they made it back) but the folks who have been on ATlantis for months if not years do have more knowledge of the PEgasus Galaxy and wraith ships than Sam does.

Yes, Carter should be deskbound. She signed on to LEAD the expedition, not run off and rescue them. However, the writers do love Carter to bits (any interview them overflows with praise) so I suspect Carter isn't going to be realistically stuck behind the desk (no, she'll be in her tight black leather outfit with a gun *cough*).

And yes, many of us like Lorne a lot. He's shown to be quite capable at his job, and well, at least we get some nice stuff with him in next week's episode.

There are more degrees of qualification and Sam had the highest in those type of missions, plus she was briefed by Ronon and would have been a waste of important time to brief again someonelse less qualified.

The people on Atlantis are chosen because they're very good at their jobs, and that includes the military folk. If you want to go with qualifications, the soldiers who have months/years worth of experience fighting Wraith are therefore more qualified.

Sam shouldn't have gone on the rescue mission! If captured then who was going to lead Atlantis - Chuck? Not to mention that we'd have lost Rodney, her and Zelenka - the top 3 lead scientists Earth has!
I can understand why she made the emotional decision to lead the rescue mission - she wanted to prove herself to Atlantis personnel (especially Ronon), but that doesn't mean I support her decision. Guess when your hubby is head of HWS you can get away with anything...

Chuck probably knows more about Atlantis than Weir and Carter combined What hubby? She's not married to Jack, and at the rate the writers are going, it'll be a deathbed wedding if they have one

[elbo]

Interesting logic. No one with a rank less than lt. col. should coordinate a rescue mission? Regardless of how much field experience a major might have, he shouldn't lead a rescue mission?

Major Lorne led the search for Sheppard's team in Lost Boys. Major Sheppard led the military contingent on Atlantis the first year of their mission. I don't think either one of them were incompetent.

I think the rescue mission could have been handled quite easily by the SGA teams -- no Col. necessary.

I don't know where you're getting the idea that no other team except Sheppard's has off-world experience. What do you think the other teams do all day?

I'm geting the ideea from the simple fact, that there are not more than 2-3 situations in which other team the flag team engaged the Wraith, from my viewer experience. So they cannot be consideartate Wraith experts. Neither Sam of course, but she has a lot of succesfull rescue missions in her CV from which i have knowledge off. And in this case this what it was all about.

The rank usualy go with the experience hand in hand. There are exceptions of course. I didn't say that a lower rank with vaste experience cannot lead a rescue. I just say that this case is not one of those exceptions, and both the superior experience and rank are meeting at Sam, so consequently was a logical decision, from my perspective.

I would have founded extremly annoying for Sam to let this mission, very important giving the capture, in the hands of a recurring and low experience/rank officer. In my opinion this is now how a leader should lead, this is also is not the right path for trying to integrate in the colective and earning their respect. Leading (not a sharehold company of course) is more than giving orders and sending other people in fire, but some times (SOME TIMES, ok?) doing it yourself. I understand Weir, she didn't had the expertise/training to make something like this. But Sam has and will be a shame to not use it to help the colective.

I'm not following your last remark. The Atlantis expedition does have a lot of experience with the Wraith. They haven't just been hiding and running from them. How does Carter's experience with the Goa'uld relate here?

To be honest, i have no ideea how many SGA teams are and beside Lorne and Sheppard i don't know no other team leader, at least recuring. In SG1 they started with 9, then 12 teams and if i'm not mistaken they practicaly ended with close to 20 teams, an entire army. In SGA there is practicaly no refference to other teams and what they do all day. The absolut focus is on Shepp's team, both inside and ouside the city and the writers didn't make any efforts to give the impression that the others team are good for somethingelse than becaming casualities. I don't like it but this is how it is.

An no, against Wraith, we try to hide and to cover our existence every time we see them and we engage them only if we have absolutely no other option or someone else force our hand, like in the 'Lost Bou'/'Hive' or 'Reunion' or 'Aurora' or 'Allies'/NML. We could be more aggresive, but this strategy is understandable too: we are so far from home and the Wraith have no means to reach Earth yet, are not a direct threat. With Goa'uld was a little different, they kew about us and where to find us and were in range of Earth and we have been forced to take the fight to them.

The point is that Sam previous combat/tactical/war experience is invaluable and in comparation with her, Atlantis military personal are, how Rodney will put it 'amators', exception making just Sheppard's team.

Carter would have done whatever the writers needed her to do. But sure, we can guess what she might have done. Maybe Carter would have trusted Ladon sooner, John would have been rescued after the second feeding, retired from the airforce and a new military commander would have been sent to Atlantis. Maybe Carter would have turned Ladon over to Kolya right away. Who knows? I haven't seen Carter make any tough decisions yet, so I have no idea how she thinks.

I just wanted to point out that leading an expedition of this nature require a logical/military mind and a rapidity of decision.

In that particular case, was ovious that if "we don't negociate with terorists" we also 'don't take demnitary prisoners', 'we don't torture them for information', so consequently the only other option is to let them go, to cooperate in finding the gate adress. This require few minutes not 9 hours and 3 Wraith meals. It doesn't matter what we speculate, the fact is that no real leader or in charge of something, should need 9 hours and 60 of someone years to reach to the conclunsion that 'we don't negociate with terorists' so we could as well respect the human rights too.

[elbo]

No, the top officer doesn't go running off to save people. He/she assigns capable people to do it. The commanding officer is supposed to deal with the nasty logistics, sending people out to imminent doom, etc., not going out and doing the job themselves. That's war. Now yes, there was another jumper with potential redshirts in it (we'll assume they made it back) but the folks who have been on ATlantis for months if not years do have more knowledge of the PEgasus Galaxy and wraith ships than Sam does.

Yes, Carter should be deskbound. She signed on to LEAD the expedition, not run off and rescue them. However, the writers do love Carter to bits (any interview them overflows with praise) so I suspect Carter isn't going to be realistically stuck behind the desk (no, she'll be in her tight black leather outfit with a gun *cough*).

And yes, many of us like Lorne a lot. He's shown to be quite capable at his job, and well, at least we get some nice stuff with him in next week's episode.

That is you rule, i respect it. Everyone is entitled to his own rules. In reality there is no kind of rule to tie the hands of a base commander to participate to a specific mission. In SG universe, the commanders don't make a habbit of going off-world. But everyone of them, and we speak about generals, had moments in which thet've gone in rescue missions.

Your problem is not with the principle, is with the character. Sorry cannot help ya' here.

Lorne capable? He was captured by the Genii, stuned by Ford, almost fed upon by a Wraith Queen, rescue by Rodney in 'Tao of Rodney' and here his combat adventures ends from my knowledge.

And in my opinion, Carter should not be deskbounded. If Weir has so many off-world incursions just to pissed off people, make enemies and generaly to watch the landscape and make photos, Carter should be off-world at least in twice as many mission. Come on, she don't go off-world to change the air, she actualy contribute.

[Willow'sCat]

Well for me the bottom line is Carter was only brought in to replace Weir... not because of what happened to Weir but because a focus group or something just as lame told SciFi/MGM and tptb that Weir wasn't working.

So now she is here, she should not be making the exact same mistakes Weir made *imho of course* she should be staying put, she should not be focusing all her efforts on SGA-1 (Hammond always gave me the impression of someone who was making decisions for all the Teams under his command) she certainly shouldn't be putting herself at such a great risk.

To me is shows she is just as incompetent as the women she is replacing. Less of the Carter!super women and more of Carter!Leader would be good in season 4.

Hell we know she can fight, even solely SGA fans can't be that ignorant. She got the promotion for a reason after all.

[Cautious Explorer]

I'm geting the ideea from the simple fact, that there are not more than 2-3 situations in which other team the flag team engaged the Wraith, from my viewer experience. So they cannot be consideartate Wraith experts. Neither Sam of course, but she has a lot of succesfull rescue missions in her CV from which i have knowledge off. And in this case this what it was all about.

I can agree with you that Carter is no Wraith expert. I don't agree with you that only Sheppard's team has any experience with Wraith in the Pegasus Galaxy. Just because the show doesn't have the time or resources to show what all the other teams are doing, doesn't mean they do nothing or that they don't exist.

The rank usualy go with the experience hand in hand. There are exceptions of course. I didn't say that a lower rank with vaste experience cannot lead a rescue. I just say that this case is not one of those exceptions, and both the superior experience and rank are meeting at Sam, so consequently was a logical decision, from my perspective.

I can't agree with you here. Carter's experience is in a different galaxy. She has no experience with Wraith other than what she may or may not have read in mission reports. It makes no more sense for Carter to charge in and take control in this instance than it would for Sheppard to go to the SGC and take charge of a mission against the Goa'uld when there are already perfectly qualified people there with real experience.

I would have founded extremly annoying for Sam to let this mission, very important giving the capture, in the hands of a recurring and low experience/rank officer. In my opinion this is now how a leader should lead, this is also is not the right path for trying to integrate in the colective and earning their respect. Leading (not a sharehold company of course) is more than giving orders and sending other people in fire, but some times (SOME TIMES, ok?) doing it yourself. I understand Weir, she didn't had the expertise/training to make something like this. But Sam has and will be a shame to not use it to help the colective.

You seem to be assuming that everyone except Sheppard and his team are idiots. These are the same people that have been providing support to Sheppard's team for years before Carter showed up.

A character being recurring doesn't make that character inexperienced or idiotic either. Zelenka is recurring and it's acknowledged that he is a brilliant scientist. It's not possible to show every character in the city and what they're accomplishing in every show. That doesn't mean that they aren't there working in the background.

To be honest, i have no ideea how many SGA teams are and beside Lorne and Sheppard i don't know no other team leader, at least recuring. In SG1 they started with 9, then 12 teams and if i'm not mistaken they practicaly ended with close to 20 teams, an entire army. In SGA there is practicaly no refference to other teams and what they do all day. The absolut focus is on Shepp's team, both inside and ouside the city and the writers didn't make any efforts to give the impression that the others team are good for somethingelse than becaming casualities. I don't like it but this is how it is.

An no, against Wraith, we try to hide and to cover our existence every time we see them and we engage them only if we have absolutely no other option or someone else force our hand, like in the 'Lost Bou'/'Hive' or 'Reunion' or 'Aurora' or 'Allies'/NML. We could be more aggresive, but this strategy is understandable too: we are so far from home and the Wraith have no means to reach Earth yet, are not a direct threat. With Goa'uld was a little different, they kew about us and where to find us and were in range of Earth and we have been forced to take the fight to them.

The point is that Sam previous combat/tactical/war experience is invaluable and in comparation with her, Atlantis military personal are, how Rodney will put it 'amators', exception making just Sheppard's team.

I don't think the writers intended to portray all the military personnel on Atlantis as useless cannon fodder. I certainly haven't gotten that impression.

They are trying to hide the existence of Atlantis from the Wraith, but that doesn't mean they've stopped fighting against them. I don't think it makes the Atlantis expedition any less brave than the teams at the SGC.

And everyone is an amateur compared to Carter when it comes to combat experience? I definately disagree with you on this. You seem to have a very glorified vision of Samantha Carter.

I just wanted to point out that leading an expedition of this nature require a logical/military mind and a rapidity of decision.

In that particular case, was ovious that if "we don't negociate with terorists" we also 'don't take demnitary prisoners', 'we don't torture them for information', so consequently the only other option is to let them go, to cooperate in finding the gate adress. This require few minutes not 9 hours and 3 Wraith meals. It doesn't matter what we speculate, the fact is that no real leader or in charge of something, should need 9 hours and 60 of someone years to reach to the conclunsion that 'we don't negociate with terorists' so we could as well respect the human rights too.

What do you mean by "demnitary prisoners"?

Regardless of your opinion of the prior leader, it doesn't mean the new leader is going to be infallible. I'm sure Carter will make good decisions and bad decisions too. It's too early to tell what kind of leader she will be. I'll chalk the rescue mission up as a bad decision. It's not a huge mistake and things turned out well, but it wasn't based on sound judgment either.

[prion]

That is you rule, i respect it. Everyone is entitled to his own rules. In reality there is no kind of rule to tie the hands of a base commander to participate to a specific mission. In SG universe, the commanders don't make a habbit of going off-world. But everyone of them, and we speak about generals, had moments in which thet've gone in rescue missions.

Your problem is not with the principle, is with the character. Sorry cannot help ya' here.

Lorne capable? He was captured by the Genii, stuned by Ford, almost fed upon by a Wraith Queen, rescue by Rodney in 'Tao of Rodney' and here his combat adventures ends from my knowledge.

And in my opinion, Carter should not be deskbounded. If Weir has so many off-world incursions just to pissed off people, make enemies and generaly to watch the landscape and make photos, Carter should be off-world at least in twice as many mission. Come on, she don't go off-world to change the air, she actualy contribute.

If you go by that logic, then Sam is just as incapable if not more so than you perceive Lorne to be. She's been captured enough times, made the big mistake with replicarter, etc. In fact, I'm sure she's been captured more times than Lorne (seeing as how SG1 had ten years on air)

Carter should be deskbound (not deskbounded, as well, not a word ) because that is her job. Simple as that. She's the leader, in the same position as Hammond had at the SGC, and then Jack had at the SGC. Jack rarely went off-world (he did what, once or twice?) after he got the command. She's got a command.

What will depend on whether she goes offworld is whether the writers have the wherewithall to actually WRITE her doing her assigned job, but then they couldn't do it for Weir, so we'll probably see Sam in her leather and her P90 blasting wraith

[ToasterOnFire]

IMO, it's logical for Carter to go on away missions if there's a skill needed that she can perform better than pretty much everyone on Atlantis. Replicator problems? Check. Super difficult think-on-your-feet scientific problem? Sure, she can back up Rodney. Stomping through a wraith facility to save a team member? Eh, I don't see how Carter is that better equipped than the other military people on Atlantis, especially since they've likely fought wraith and/or been in wraith facilities and she hasn't.

They just lost one leader on an away mission. Is it really that smart for the new leader to jump right into another?

[Briangate78]

IMO, it's logical for Carter to go on away missions if there's a skill needed that she can perform better than pretty much everyone on Atlantis. Replicator problems? Check. Super difficult think-on-your-feet scientific problem? Sure, she can back up Rodney. Stomping through a wraith facility to save a team member? Eh, I don't see how Carter is that better equipped than the other military people on Atlantis, especially since they've likely fought wraith and/or been in wraith facilities and she hasn't.

They just lost one leader on an away mission. Is it really that smart for the new leader to jump right into another?

I think Carter went on that mission because she thought she was still on SG-1!

[p-pos]

no it is was not logical for carter to go on a routine rescue mission when any other marine would have done, especially since they had just lost a leader and are in the middle of war putting herself out there like that was reckless.

[SG13-NightOps]

I knew this thread would come up eventually.

Trying to compare Weir and Carter is apples and oranges.
Carter is a seasoned officer - Weir is a banner waving peace activist. Of course she would never go anywhere expecting hostiles. Except....

After being put in a position where the alledgedly non hostile race she is going to negotiate with did turn hostile (Condemned), she did it again (Progeny). She knowingly walks alone into the homebase of hostiles (seige II) when Atlantis is under attack. She goes with the rest of the team to take atlantis back from the Asurans (return 2) and then they all (Weir, Shep and McKay - the leadership group) leave teyla in charge of atlantis, floating in space and cut off from everyone (lifeline) while they go try and steal a ZPM from the Asuran City - which they were lucky Carter was there else they'd all be dead!

And yet when Carter goes offworld once, with a solid plan and backup, she is evil for not staying back in charge of atlantis.

Double standards much?

[Cautious Explorer]

There is no logic to Carter going on the mission other than the logic that TPTB need to reinforce what a wonderful addition Col. Carter is. Look, she's not intimidated by Ronon, she can put Rodney in his place and say no to John. And now she's going to put on a leather outfit, strap on a gun and save our heroes. See how important Carter is. See how tough Carter is. Atlanis would be lost without her. That's the logic.

[SG13-NightOps]

There is no logic to Carter going on the mission other than the logic that TPTB need to reinforce what a wonderful addition Col. Carter is. Look, she's not intimidated by Ronon, she can put Rodney in his place and say no to John. And now she's going to put on a leather outfit, strap on a gun and save our heroes. See how important Carter is. See how tough Carter is. Atlanis would be lost without her. That's the logic.

That doesn't sound like logic. It sounds like sour grapes.

Weir wasn't intimidated by Ronon.
Weir put Rodney in his place.
Weir said no to John.
Weir run out of the Jumper and saved our heroes and ALL of Atlantis. (Lifeline)

Again, find me something I cant parallel with Weir, and you have a logical argument.

[Skydiver]

If sam were joining shep on a weekly basis, i'd have an issue with it. It's not her place any more than it is hammond's or landry's to tag along.

over the years, we did see Jack join the team at least once - it's good to be king - becaus his skills were needed, or his genes anyway.

was sam a little OTT heading off world, maybe. And if she did it every week, i'd have an issue. but if she didnt go she'd be criticized as the leader that has never even seen a wraith (even a frizzy haired one).

But i think it was also meant to be a validation to the non-sg1 viewer that, hey, atlantis has a MILITARY leader now. someone that is qualified to pick up her p90 and kick alien tushie. Not someone who only carries a sidearm becaue it's a good idea to be armed and not totally helpless.

I see sam going on the rescue to be more of an example to the casual viewer that sam isn't weir, in more ways than one

[elbo]

And yet when Carter goes offworld once, with a solid plan and backup, she is evil for not staying back in charge of atlantis.

Funny isn't it? Someone even said that was a 'rescue routine mission'. More fun!

This discussion is not progressive but repetitive.

It is easy to realise that 'leting Atlantis on Lorne's hands for 1-2 hours' is not the issue here.

Sam is not only in charge of Atlantis, but in charge of the whole Pegasus operation, like Wier was too. Until Sam leaves Pegasus you cannot actually say that she left her post.

Until now Sam has a terible start. Sheppard was actually been rescued. First time when he wasn't force to escape capture by his own. You got to hate the writers for that.

Oh yes, and i belive that i read somwhere that 'Reunion' was a Ronon episode. Don't you belive that Sam was way too present?

And she has no experience with the Wraith, i don't know what she was thinking. To engage masive Wraith drones with stuners and moving in slow mode require extensive training and previous hand to hand Wraith combat.

I look forward to the next anti-Sam / pro-Lorne match, this thread begin to look like a Kafka universe.