Is it logical for Carter to go off-world?

[FallenAngelII]

I think it's a little of both here. She has plenty of off-world experience and to me she pretty much set the tone for her command, she will be more direct not simply sit behind the desk if she could help out on the field. However I doubt we will see this often, which is good. But at the same time, I agree with what has been said in here. It was lack of millitary personell on the team, and that didn't make sense to me. That Zelenka was there wasn't to big of a reach, he is after all the best they have next to Rodney and could very well be needed, and to me that also builds on his character.

We're not arguing whether or not Sam is fit to lead Atlantis (at least not in this thread). We're arguing the merits for Sam to go off on this particular mission (or off-world at all).

Not to mention that I have no idea if this was intended to be different at first, don't know if JM has said anything about that. If it was made from the very start to have Sam go, or was perhaps Lorne thought of first, or at least to be included? The thing is that they might not have had the chance to have him included, since I'm pretty sure he has other stuff on his plate as well and might simply have been written out when they couldn't use him in the ep.

Doesn't matter if they didn't have chance to have Lorne included. They could've subtituted him for someone else. Anyone but the leader of the expedition. After all, we didn't have Cadman there. The two other Tau'ri militaries were Red Shirts. How about Ronon, 3 Red Shirts and a Radek? It's not like we saw Sam do anything special. All she did was take point.

[Sparky13]

From Joe Mallozzi's most recent blog entry, in which he deconstructs the episode:

"Carter leads the rescue op: Not such a stretch given her experience with SG-1, what’s at stake, and the fact that the chain of command kicks in on Atlantis (as it did whenever Weir went off-world)."

Given what he's saying here, it does make sense that Carter would go on the mission. The military commander of Atlantis prior to Carter's arrival (Sheppard) and it's chief science officer (McKay) have been taken hostage by the Wraith. That's a really big deal. I don't know anything about military chain of command, but maybe she was required to go.

[saberhagen83]

We're not arguing whether or not Sam is fit to lead Atlantis (at least not in this thread). We're arguing the merits for Sam to go off on this particular mission (or off-world at all).

Where have I argued if it's right or wrong for her to lead Atlantis?! I said it is both right and wrong for her to go on the rescue mission. She has the experience from off-world travel, leading a unit and combat. But at the same time she is the leader of Atlantis, and possibly shouldn't be on such a mission herself. All I said was, she marked out how she apparently will play as the leader of Atlantis, more direct and hand-on rather than behind a desk, in a time she feels she could be of assistance.

Doesn't matter if they didn't have chance to have Lorne included. They could've subtituted him for someone else.

Unfortently it's not always that easy...

[FallenAngelII]

Where have I argued if it's right or wrong for her to lead Atlantis?! I said it is both right and wrong for her to go on the rescue mission. She has the experience from off-world travel, leading a unit and combat. But at the same time she is the leader of Atlantis, and possibly shouldn't be on such a mission herself. All I said was, she marked out how she apparently will play as the leader of Atlantis, more direct and hand-on rather than behind a desk, in a time she feels she could be of assistance.

Misinterpretation because you started with "She's got off-world experience, bla bla" and I kinda zoned out after that because I've seen waaaay too many posts about that to justify just about anything Sam does lately.

Unfortently it's not always that easy...

It's not? With an entire city full of military personnel with years of experience with the Wraith? If I were under Sam's command and saw her on her first day in charge of the city charge off into the unknown with only 3 fighters as backup into a situation where Atlantis' flagship team + 3 supposedly top notch Satedan Warriors had already been captured half-cocked (knowing nothing of the current situation back at the science facility) and without ever even seen a Wraith before, my morale would plummet.

A hot-headed leader who needs to prove herself and who jumps in half-cocked without information or experience when the city is crawling with people with experience in spades! There's nothing logical about Sam going off-world on this occasion.

[Uber]

Misinterpretation because you started with "She's got off-world experience, bla bla" and I kinda zoned out after that because I've seen waaaay too many posts about that to justify just about anything Sam does lately.

Right. It's always best for one to reply to someone and repeat the same stuff over and over without the benefit of boring ol' context.

It's not? With an entire city full of military personnel with years of experience with the Wraith?

Ten years of experience fighting the Goa'uld, the replicators, the Ori, etc. etc. In this context, I don't think it matters who the bad guys are when your mission is to go in and extract your team, not try to understand the inner workings of the Wraith mindset. The P-90 cares not to whom it's aimed.

If I were under Sam's command and saw her on her first day in charge of the city charge off into the unknown with only 3 fighters as backup...

There were two jumpers and the teams split up to cover more area so I doubt strongly there were as few there as you're suggesting. Sam's a battle seasoned officer who's done this thing for years.

...into a situation where Atlantis' flagship team + 3 supposedly top notch Satedan Warriors had already been captured half-cocked (knowing nothing of the current situation back at the science facility) and without ever even seen a Wraith before, my morale would plummet.

Why on earth would never seeing a Wraith in person before matter? All she has to know to do is direct her team and point and shoot at the evil, life sucking aliens...which is old hat for her. And she has Ronon's latest intel from about 3 seconds before they left. I'd say that's fairly up-to-date.

A hot-headed leader who needs to prove herself and who jumps in half-cocked without information or experience when the city is crawling with people with experience in spades! There's nothing logical about Sam going off-world on this occasion.

Well, you're obviously welcome to your interpretation but Carter did not come across to me as being hot headed or as being someone desperate to prove herself. And the Carter I saw was calm, cool and collected...even taking a beat in the PJ to tell Ronon she'd support whatever decision he made.

As for whether or not I thought it was logical for her to go? Sure. For this one mission...and perhaps when necessary else wise. She just left SG-1, where stuff like this is an every day thing for her so it's perfectly natural for her to jump in and do her thing.

But she does have new responsibilities...and although old habits die hard, I'm sure she'll come to a place where she recognizes she can't go offworld as much as she used to. In fact, we know that's true since

Spoiler:

she only goes off world 3 times all season.

[saberhagen83]

Misinterpretation because you started with "She's got off-world experience, bla bla" and I kinda zoned out after that because I've seen waaaay too many posts about that to justify just about anything Sam does lately.

Well it often is a valid reason, wheter you like it or not...

It's not? With an entire city full of military personnel with years of experience with the Wraith? If I were under Sam's command and saw her on her first day in charge of the city charge off into the unknown with only 3 fighters as backup into a situation where Atlantis' flagship team + 3 supposedly top notch Satedan Warriors had already been captured half-cocked (knowing nothing of the current situation back at the science facility) and without ever even seen a Wraith before, my morale would plummet.

A hot-headed leader who needs to prove herself and who jumps in half-cocked without information or experience when the city is crawling with people with experience in spades! There's nothing logical about Sam going off-world on this occasion.

That's talking like Atlantis is real. You have to remember that this isn't reality and they need actors to play the parts. If one was thought of at first, and when they had to push this episode to be filmed later...things could turn around and they may be standing empty handed in the end with little time to find a replacement so they take the easy way...and in a way it is a logical way in the end anyway. But like I said, I have no idea how that part was thought of at first, Sam to go or someone else...the only thing about this whole thing that I'm bothered about (no matter who was in charge of the team) is the lack of millitary personell.

[Willow'sCat]

From Joe Mallozzi's most recent blog entry, in which he deconstructs the episode:

"Carter leads the rescue op: Not such a stretch given her experience with SG-1, what’s at stake, and the fact that the chain of command kicks in on Atlantis (as it did whenever Weir went off-world)."

Given what he's saying here, it does make sense that Carter would go on the mission. The military commander of Atlantis prior to Carter's arrival (Sheppard) and it's chief science officer (McKay) have been taken hostage by the Wraith. That's a really big deal. I don't know anything about military chain of command, but maybe she was required to go.

Um, Joe helped to write this episode and he is also one the show runners. Unbiased he ain't.

It still remains to be seen how often Carter does this, if it doesn't happen again until

Spoiler:

Trio

then I am fine with it *mostly* but to be honest it will get old real soon if it becomes a weekly event to see her pull out the gun and put on the tact vest. I like my Atlantis leaders to stay at home, mostly unseen and preferably not interacting as if they are part of the TEAM because they are not!

Really unless there is a pressing need no one else can fill the leader needs to stay at home... *imho of course*

[FallenAngelII]

Ten years of experience fighting the Goa'uld, the replicators, the Ori, etc. etc. In this context, I don't think it matters who the bad guys are when your mission is to go in and extract your team, not try to understand the inner workings of the Wraith mindset.

It's a very different thing to fight the Jaffa vs. fighting the Wraith. They do not use the same weapons, same technology or strategies. Thus, Sam was far from the most qualified person for the job. She's qualified to do a lot of things. But fighting the Wraith on her first day without ever encountering the Wraith before while Lorne and who knows who else are around? Hardly.

And she is still the leader of Atlantis. When accepting a high position like that, you have to accept that fact that you won't be going into the field. Leaders lead, field workers work in the fields.

The P-90 cares not to whom it's aimed.There were two jumpers and the teams split up to cover more area so I doubt strongly there were as few there as you're suggesting.

There were not two jumpers that went into the science facility! One jumper was used as a decoy to make the Darts fly off on a wild goose chase!

Meanwhile, only Sam, Ronon, Radek and two Red-Shirts actually entered the facility. Five people, one of which had never seen a Wraith before and another one of which was unarmed. Yes, how competent they were compared to a team of Ronon, Cadman, Lorne and two Red-Shirts.

Sam's a battle seasoned officer who's done this thing for years.Why on earth would never seeing a Wraith in person before matter? All she has to know to do is direct her team and point and shoot at the evil, life sucking aliens...which is old hat for her. And she has Ronon's latest intel from about 3 seconds before they left. I'd say that's fairly up-to-date.Well, you're obviously welcome to your interpretation but Carter did not come across to me as being hot headed or as being someone desperate to prove herself. And the Carter I saw was calm, cool and collected...even taking a beat in the PJ to tell Ronon she'd support whatever decision he made.

Calm, cool and collected people would've realized that it's not their place, as leaders, to jump into a hostile situation where they might die (and especially not to take point and be the first to go) when the city had just lost a beloved leader of 4 years!

And I wasn't the one who originally claimed she needed to prove herself. The "Sam did the right thing"-side brought that ludicrous statement forth as an argument for why she did the right thing.

As for whether or not I thought it was logical for her to go? Sure. For this one mission...and perhaps when necessary else wise. She just left SG-1, where stuff like this is an every day thing for her so it's perfectly natural for her to jump in and do her thing.

She has accepted a position where it's not her job, responsibility or duty to go off-world when the situation is hostile and could result in casualties. Her job is to stay on Atlantis and lead the city.

But she does have new responsibilities...and although old habits die hard, I'm sure she'll come to a place where she recognizes she can't go offworld as much as she used to. In fact, we know that's true since

Spoiler:

she only goes off world 3 times all season.

Yes, because that makes it all better. All habits die hard.

Yes. But that doens't change the fact that in this case, she did wrong. What she'll do in the future, how fresh she is to the job, no matter what, what she did in this case was still wrong (IMO).

That's talking like Atlantis is real. You have to remember that this isn't reality and they need actors to play the parts. If one was thought of at first, and when they had to push this episode to be filmed later...things could turn around and they may be standing empty handed in the end with little time to find a replacement so they take the easy way...and in a way it is a logical way in the end anyway. But like I said, I have no idea how that part was thought of at first, Sam to go or someone else...the only thing about this whole thing that I'm bothered about (no matter who was in charge of the team) is the lack of millitary personell.

Yes, let's ignore logic because the PTB are lazy.

They could've just grabbed any random Canadian actor and stuck them fatigues, given then a P-90 and have them go instead of Sam. They could be the leader of SGA-12 for all I care. The leader does not go off-world unless, especially not into a hostile situation and escpially not taking point (being the first to go under fire) unless the situation requires for it to be so.

And in this case, Sam had an entire city full of qualified personnel better suited than her to go.

[saberhagen83]

And in this case, Sam had an entire city full of qualified personnel better suited than her to go.

Entire city? Haven't you stated before that most of the people on Atlantis are only scientists...this isn't a millitary mission and so on. For all we know Sam could have been the most qualified on Atlantis to lead the mission. We have only seen them establish Sheppards and Lornes teams as Gate-teams. Most of the other millitary personell we see on Atlantis here and there could be mostly security personell, that doesn't go off-world very often. OR even more simply could be that there are teams off-world with people that could be better suited for this mission.

About what you said about Sam not knowing the Wraith, their wepons and tactics. Don't you think she would have been reading up on them, studying them with what the Atlantis mission has sent to Earth, all that information about them. Not to mention that the Wraith very often use a very similar weapon to that of Zats, they don't want to kill their victims instantly, so they simply "shock" them...it's very much Goa'uld-ish who even used staff weapons that actually kills.

I gave my opinion about this matter, and I see it as 50/50. There is no right or wrong here IMHO. It's in between as we don't have all the facts anyway.

[FallenAngelII]

Entire city? Haven't you stated before that most of the people on Atlantis are only scientists...this isn't a millitary mission and so on. For all we know Sam could have been the most qualified on Atlantis to lead the mission. We have only seen them establish Sheppards and Lornes teams as Gate-teams. Most of the other millitary personell we see on Atlantis here and there could be mostly security personell, that doesn't go off-world very often. OR even more simply could be that there are teams off-world with people that could be better suited for this mission.

Are you seriously claiming now that with that many military people on Atlantis (not a majority, but many), every single one of them who had prior experience with the Wraith were somehow unavailable, forcing Sam to go?

We only saw SG-1 during 10 years of Stargate SG-1. Occasionally, we'd see some random teams like SG-12, but not often. Does that mean that SG-1 only had, like, a handful of SG-teams that went off world?

About what you said about Sam not knowing the Wraith, their wepons and tactics. Don't you think she would have been reading up on them, studying them with what the Atlantis mission has sent to Earth, all that information about them. Not to mention that the Wraith very often use a very similar weapon to that of Zats, they don't want to kill their victims instantly, so they simply "shock" them...it's very much Goa'uld-ish who even used staff weapons that actually kills.

Reading about them does not equal having first hand experience about them. Lorne, Cadman and any number of people on Atlantis were more qualified or at least qualified. Even if Sam were the most qualified person for the mission, which I maintain she wasn't, as leader of Atlantis, she should not go out unless the situation really calls for her presence. She should send out the "lesser important" first (like Lorne or Cadman).

Sam, as the leader of Atlantis, should not have put herself in that position while there were others to send out. And you're not seriously claiming that every single person who had prior experience engaging the Wraith were unavailable, are you?

Also, it does not matter if the Wraith stun and don't kill. If she's on the frontline, she'll be the first one to go (logically) if they engage the Wraith. The people in the back of the line might be able to escape should they have to, but Sam will be among the first ones to be stunned and fed upon should the Wraith feel hungry.

And the fact she'd be the first one to get captured is bad enough.

I gave my opinion about this matter, and I see it as 50/50. There is no right or wrong here IMHO. It's in between as we don't have all the facts anyway.

If that's your angle now, then we can't never really discuss anything regarding the show because we almost never have all the facts about anything.

[saberhagen83]

Are you seriously claiming now that with that many military people on Atlantis (not a majority, but many), every single one of them who had prior experience with the Wraith were somehow unavailable, forcing Sam to go?

We only saw SG-1 during 10 years of Stargate SG-1. Occasionally, we'd see some random teams like SG-12, but not often. Does that mean that SG-1 only had, like, a handful of SG-teams that went off world?

Why not, it's not that big of a stretch. We've heard plenty of times on SG1 that a big number of teams have been off-world at the same time. Giving limited resources for rescue missions etc. Even Hammond went off-world at least once to rescue SG1. I'm sure he too had more qualified personell to do that at his disposal, but chose to do it himself. Putting himself at risk as well, as commander of SGC.

Reading about them does not equal having first hand experience about them. Lorne, Cadman and any number of people on Atlantis were more qualified or at least qualified.

Sam, as the leader of Atlantis, should not have put herself in that position while there were others to send out. And you're not seriously claiming that every single person who had prior experience engaging the Wraith were unavailable, are you?

So every single person that goes out to war with some country or whatever have all the knowledge about them? I'm not saying she has more experience with the Wraith, but she has enough experience about combat situations.

And again why not? If Atlantis doesn't have that many Gate-teams, like SGC had. It's not at all impossible to see many of them off-world. And not anyone would be trusted to lead such a operation, no matter how much they have gone up against the Wraith. We don't know how many Majors or Colonels they have at Atlantis.

Also, it does not matter if the Wraith stun and don't kill. If she's on the frontline, she'll be the first one to go (logically) if they engage the Wraith. The people in the back of the line might be able to escape should they have to, but Sam will be among the first ones to be stunned and fed upon should the Wraith feel hungry.

And the fact she'd be the first one to get captured is bad enough.

It's a risky job, for any of the teams. No difference if she is head of Atlantis or Sheppard that is otherwise highest ranking officer on Atlantis.

If that's your angle now, then we can't never really discuss anything regarding the show because we almost never have all the facts about anything.

Yes it would be great if we could discuss this normally. But I always get the feeling with your posts that you just keep twisting everything into your advantage, no matter how far fetched it is. Not to mention most of your posts have a hostile tone to them. More or less it's you are right and everyone that sees things differently are wrong. And it just goes around and around...what kind of discussion is that then??

[FallenAngelII]

Why not, it's not that big of a stretch. We've heard plenty of times on SG1 that a big number of teams have been off-world at the same time. Giving limited resources for rescue missions etc. Even Hammond went off-world at least once to rescue SG1. I'm sure he too had more qualified personell to do that at his disposal, but chose to do it himself. Putting himself at risk as well, as commander of SGC.

In "Doppelganger", Sam says they had to tell all of their teams off-world to stay off-world for the moment. Which means they had multiple teams off-world. Assuming that not every single team was off-world at the moment, they had a few teams back on Atlantis as well. Assuming these two things, there should've been a least a couple of people (Lorne, Cadman, etc.) capable of doing what Sam did in "Reunion" instead of having Sam rush off.

So every single person that goes out to war with some country or whatever have all the knowledge about them? I'm not saying she has more experience with the Wraith, but she has enough experience about combat situations.

They have more knowledge about that particular country and their warriors than someone who juts got there and read about them. And you don't think the military personnel on Atlantis have any combat experience? That they'd ship off people without prior combat experience to Atlantis for fun?

And again why not? If Atlantis doesn't have that many Gate-teams, like SGC had. It's not at all impossible to see many of them off-world. And not anyone would be trusted to lead such a operation, no matter how much they have gone up against the Wraith. We don't know how many Majors or Colonels they have at Atlantis.

But now you're basing your argument on assumptions. Lack of evidence does not mean evidence. You can't say "We haven't seen or heard of an SGA-12, so there must be less than 5 teams". It's like saying "I've never seen or heard of the characters going to the bathroom, so they must have been genetically enhanced to not have to".

It's a risky job, for any of the teams. No difference if she is head of Atlantis or Sheppard that is otherwise highest ranking officer on Atlantis.

That's the point. It's a very risky sitaution. One which the new leader of Atlantis, who just took over after the old one was lost in battle, does not need to put herself into first thing she does. And she certainly does not need to be at the front of the line!

Yes it would be great if we could discuss this normally. But I always get the feeling with your posts that you just keep twisting everything into your advantage, no matter how far fetched it is. Not to mention most of your posts have a hostile tone to them. More or less it's you are right and everyone that sees things differently are wrong. And it just goes around and around...what kind of discussion is that then??

Yes, let's tone it down, shall we. Let's argue like we're unsure of ourselves and our own arguments, like we're guessing and making baseless assumptions. I don't want to keep such a tone, thus, I don't.

[saberhagen83]

And you don't think the military personnel on Atlantis have any combat experience? That they'd ship off people without prior combat experience to Atlantis for fun?

Where have I said that?! What I said was that there might not have been someone on Atlantis at that time that should be trusted with such a mission. Someone that has experience leading a team (Sheppard, Sam or Lorne for example) should handle such an operation. Not someone that has 0 experience leading a unit, not the best mission to start of with...

But now you're basing your argument on assumptions. Lack of evidence does not mean evidence. You can't say "We haven't seen or heard of an SGA-12, so there must be less than 5 teams". It's like saying "I've never seen or heard of the characters going to the bathroom, so they must have been genetically enhanced to not have to".

Sounds familiar doesn't it? Where have I said it was evidence?? It's the same as you, you make the assumption there was someone enough qualified to take on that mission. But can you prove it? No? Neither can I. That is why I am 50/50 on her going on that mission. We were told how many units there was at SGC, we have no idea (as far as I know) how many units there are at Atlantis.

I can understand why some people think she shouldn't have gone. But I can also understand why she went.

That's the point. It's a very risky sitaution. One which the new leader of Atlantis, who just took over after the old one was lost in battle, does not need to put herself into first thing she does. And she certainly does not need to be at the front of the line!

But as leader of Atlantis that is her choise to make. Unless IOA or someone else have told her NOT to get involved in such matters.

[FallenAngelII]

But as leader of Atlantis that is her choise to make. Unless IOA or someone else have told her NOT to get involved in such matters.

And this means what, really?

If Sam feels like blowing up Atlantis. That's her decision to make as well. Doesn't mean it's right. As leader of Atlantis, of course it's her decision to make.

However, I am free to criticize said decision and "It's her choice to make" isn't really a valid defense. We're discussing whether it's right that she made said choice, not whether she had the right to make it.

[saberhagen83]

And this means what, really?

If Sam feels like blowing up Atlantis. That's her decision to make as well. Doesn't mean it's right. As leader of Atlantis, of course it's her decision to make.

However, I am free to criticize said decision and "It's her choice to make" isn't really a valid defense. We're discussing whether it's right that she made said choice, not whether she had the right to make it.

Kind of different thing don't you think? I've never said you have to accept that she went on the mission. If you feel she did completely wrong, then okay. I don't mind that. I've only stated my own opinion here.