Is it logical for Carter to go off-world?

[prion]

First of all she's already experienced in finding her way around in alien situations (for years people have turned to her to explain to them something she was just exposed to at the same time they were). Second, what better way to get to know what she's dealing with then to lead a mission against a target that she believes is easy to deal with? What if in the future she's trapped on a Wraith Hive ship due to no mistake of her own and her navigating her way around is the only way she is going to be able to free herself and save the day? You act like someone who is not familar with the enemy at this point should just avoid them which is silly.

Also, we don't know where Lorne was. As someone said earlier in the thread he could've been on his own offworld mission for all we know. Obviously they didn't have the actor available for this episode so they either had to ignore him or write in a line to explain why he couldn't take part in the mission - They chose to ignore him and leave it up to our own speculations.



Sg-1 was based around teams who go off world - Atlantis still makes it the focal point of the show but it has always attempted to make the show more than just that. Also, Hammond and Landry didn't go off world because they were not fit to be part of a team. Thus for plot purposes the only way to see them in combat was when someone or something invaded the base. Then you'd see Hammond running around with a gun or whatever. Since Sam is perfectly fit for ops, however, they are able to bring her character to places where it would not have made sense for our Sg-1 generals to go. You're comparing apples or oranges or young fit military officers to old, fat, over the hill generals who have settled into adminstrative duties because that's the only place that they would be useful at this point.

Ah, I still stand by my thoughts. Sam went out becuase it was the writers' way of integrating her into the series. Logically, like Hammond, or O'Neill (in his present position), she *should* be staying back and minding the fort. When you accept promotions upwards, you acknowledge you lose going out into the field. It's a fact of life.

[Briangate78]

I can't wrap my head around Carter going off-world for anything except the a mission where she physically has to be there, ala Weir going on her last off-world mission, and that was a rare, in fact singular event.

There's no way she should have been on that mission to rescue Ronon. What's the purpose, what function did Carter serve there that some other soldier couldn't have performed? If the rescue team had been captured, who would have been in charge, Zalenka?

I think it's fine that Sam would give help in finding solutions, but I think she would be doing it from Atlantis. I know the TPTB want to give Carter a bigger role than Weir had, but it has to remain in the realm of reason.

Well, it did not stop O'neill in Season 8 when he became head of the SGC. Also, if you remember the episode "Shades of Grey" when O'neill became commander of the rogue group. There was a simple rekon mission that O'neill did not need to go on according to his 2IC. O'neill made a comment to his 2IC, that if he was going to be commander he should be able to know how to do everything when the time came for a crisis.

This goes for Carter, she needs to know what is out there. She has never seen a Wraith in the flesh. There are people on Atlantis holding the fort in case she goes mia. The SGC or IOA can fufill that role with one step through the Stargate.

[Xaeden]

Ah, I still stand by my thoughts. Sam went out becuase it was the writers' way of integrating her into the series. Logically, like Hammond, or O'Neill (in his present position), she *should* be staying back and minding the fort. When you accept promotions upwards, you acknowledge you lose going out into the field. It's a fact of life.

Actually I agree with you. I think they are trying to show that Sam is new to just sitting on her hands and letting people do their jobs. At a later point I think someone will tell her that she can't be running off all the time anymore and so she will have to learn the hard way that she's no longer apart of the Sg-1 who would get some people together and run off through the Stargate when a team went missing. To me I see this as a set up for important character development more than anything else. Landry and Hammond were forced to stay back because of their age and the shape they were in, but O'neill was not and I see her having to go through something similar to him where he had a very hard time no longer being out in the field all the time.

My point always was that she shouldn't be in the field, but she can be if she wants to and if she does make that decision it's not the end of the world as some people are making it out to be.

[Cautious Explorer]

First of all she's already experienced in finding her way around in alien situations (for years people have turned to her to explain to them something she was just exposed to at the same time they were). Second, what better way to get to know what she's dealing with then to lead a mission against a target that she believes is easy to deal with? What if in the future she's trapped on a Wraith Hive ship due to no mistake of her own and her navigating her way around is the only way she is going to be able to free herself and save the day? You act like someone who is not familar with the enemy at this point should just avoid them which is silly.

A rescue operation probably isn't the best time for Carter to try out the training wheels. She does have experience in the Milky Way, but the current military contingent in Pegasus has far more experience with the Wraith. You seem to be suggesting that it's more important for Carter to get some familiarity with the Wraith for her own self-preservation than it is to rescue the team. I'm sure there will be plenty of other, more appropriate opportunities to familiarize herself with the Wraith -- just the way all the other newcomers to Pegasus do.

I think Carter should be wise enough to know that prior experience with the enemy at hand is just as valuable as her years of experience at the SGC.

Sg-1 was based around teams who go off world - Atlantis still makes it the focal point of the show but it has always attempted to make the show more than just that. Also, Hammond and Landry didn't go off world because they were not fit to be part of a team. Thus for plot purposes the only way to see them in combat was when someone or something invaded the base. Then you'd see Hammond running around with a gun or whatever. Since Sam is perfectly fit for ops, however, they are able to bring her character to places where it would not have made sense for our Sg-1 generals to go. You're comparing apples or oranges or young fit military officers to old, fat, over the hill generals who have settled into adminstrative duties because that's the only place that they would be useful at this point.

Since Atlantis was written with a civilian commander in mind, who rarely left the city, and all the off-world missions centered around the gate team, I'm going to hazard a guess that TPTB didn't intend to veer that far from the original Stargate setup. There was a tendency to focus some episodes within the city itself, and that may not have been true of the SGC--I'll have to take your word on it.

If I'm understanding you correctly, and you feel that there would have been a greater role for Hammond if he had only been younger and more fit, then I wonder why they replaced him with a character of similar age and fitness. I think there was something other than the fitness level of the actor involved.

I don't think TPTB are planning to completely replace the traditional Stargate format (gate team focus) and turn it into a Star Trek format (captain/command staff focus) simply because it's Carter. At least I hope not. I think that would destroy the show.

[Avenger]

The main character in Star Trek was the ship's captain and a few members of the crew. Of course it would be boring if none of them ever left the ship. But Stargate is based around teams of people who regularly go through the gate. There's no real need to frequently send the city leader off-world.

Not frequently, but that it's a possibility adds more to the role of the leader, in this case Carter. She is not going to be out of place if she has to go off world for a rescue mission, or through the gate to check out some new technology. Weir, as a character, was anchored to her office. It limited what the creative minds could do with her.

[SGFerrit]

Are you saying you think Carter was wrong here, therefor the anti-Carter people should be happy she made a mistake? Or are you saying she was right to go on the mission?

I think the hypocrisy would come into play if Carter made a bad judgment call, there were real repercussions, everything turned out badly and the anti-Carter people were still claiming she was portrayed as doing no wrong. If Carter makes what some people think is a bad call, everything goes swimmingly anyway and the outcome is perfect, then I think perhaps they have a valid point. Even her 'errors" have positive outcomes in that case. It's not so much about the characters actions as how the writers portray the results of those actions IMO.

I personally didn't think she was wrong to go off world. IMO it was something. she could handle.

And I do agree about the repercussions thing. But IMO that isn't the characters fault, and the blame cannot lie with her. If anything, it lies with the characters around her who choose not to turn a blind eye when she does something wrong. They did the same thing with Weir mostly. Except for Kavanaugh of course. But everyone hated him, so it's alright

I feel this may change though with Ronon and maybe Sheppard. I think they will call her up on something if they disagree/think she does something wrong. And you can bet Rodney will!

[Xaeden]

A rescue operation probably isn't the best time for Carter to try out the training wheels. She does have experience in the Milky Way, but the current military contingent in Pegasus has far more experience with the Wraith. You seem to be suggesting that it's more important for Carter to get some familiarity with the Wraith for her own self-preservation than it is to rescue the team. I'm sure there will be plenty of other, more appropriate opportunities to familiarize herself with the Wraith -- just the way all the other newcomers to Pegasus do.

What would you think is a better situation? Would it have been better if she went with Sheppard instead of going with the recue team? In my opinion leading a rescue team like that is a far better way to become familar with an enemy than leading the inital attack. Sheppard and his team had already cleared the way for them, so there were less hostiles to deal with, they managed to make it so there was absolutely no way that they would be expected, and she was being lead by Ronan who already had been in the facility. I don't know how much better you can get than that.

That said, I don't at all think she went there to become familar with the enemy. I was simply pointing out my shock at the comment that she shouldn't go there because she wasn't familar with the Wraith. If that were a reason to stay behind then how would she or anyone ever get to the point where they can go on an op? As I originally said she may not only get into a situation where she needs to save herself, but in doing so she may save everyone (i.e. Getting other trapped members off the ship as well) and all because she was absolutely needed to look at a piece of alien technology offworld and the Wraith attacked - You can't hide from the unfamilar forever.

Since Atlantis was written with a civilian commander in mind, who rarely left the city, and all the off-world missions centered around the gate team, I'm going to hazard a guess that TPTB didn't intend to veer that far from the original Stargate setup. There was a tendency to focus some episodes within the city itself, and that may not have been true of the SGC--I'll have to take your word on it.

Sg-1 had its fair share of base oriented episodes. However, I feel that naming the show after one team heavily tied them down into making it all about them. They were the ones who saved the day every time and everyone else simply were there as background who supported them (this changed a bit as the series progressed and was helped by the creation of Earth ships) or got in their way. Atlantis has a larger feel to it than that of just the four team members who go offworld as although most of the action centers around them, the Stargate Atlantis universe does not. I could go deeper into it, but I think I got my point of view across.

If I'm understanding you correctly, and you feel that there would have been a greater role for Hammond if he had only been younger and more fit, then I wonder why they replaced him with a character of similar age and fitness. I think there was something other than the fitness level of the actor involved.

No I feel as thought they specifically wrote Hammond as an older, out of shape character so that he could not be involved as much and replaced O'neill with a character similar to him so they could continue doing that. However, I feel that they brought Sam in purposely so they could involve the leader more so than they had been. They really tried to make Weir a strong, proactive character who was very much involved (i.e. "The Real World") but there were limitations on what they could do with her and I think they like that they can do more with Sam. I think their original idea was to set Atlantis apart from Sg-1 by making Weir more involved through diplomatic situations but they had a hard time writing enough of those in so she didn't develop as much as they wanted. That is completely baseless speculation on my part though.

I don't think TPTB are planning to completely replace the traditional Stargate format (gate team focus) and turn it into a Star Trek format (captain/command staff focus) simply because it's Carter. At least I hope not. I think that would destroy the show.

I don't think they would do that. Look at this episde as an example - In the same episode Carter was introduced she still took second stage to the main act. However, I think they're going to build her character a bit instead of focusing on minor people who we never see again or die. For example, normally they would be a background scientist who comes in to help Zelenka and Rodney and now I suspect that will be Sam. Also previously we would've gotten either no-names or Lorne (depending on if the actor was available) to save Sheppard and now we got Carter. The show would be pretty boring if it became about her as she can't take over Sheppard's team and run offworld with him all the time and they can't make the show about a fixed location as danger doesn't come to them that often where as in Star Trek they were always flying into danger. So, from time to time I think we'll see more of her involvement than we had seen with previously leaders, but not so much so that it overshadows the established cast members.

[garhkal]

[QUOTE=FallenAngelII;7211766]Those were logical though.
In "The Siege (Part II)", she returned to debrief the IOA on their command.]/quote]

Actually that was her going off tot he Genii home world to negotiate for the nukes that Shep later used to blow that one hive up..

Rats.. someome beat me to it.

[quote]The bottom line of all this is that, logical or not, Carter made the decision to participate in the mission. I believe she had her reasons, and we may or may not ever find them out. However, also remember she's new at this "base" commander thing, having just been promoted from a front-line field unit. It's probably going to take a little while for her to adjust to the fact that going through the Stargate on missions is no longer a major part of her job description. Once she does, I expect her to do less gate travel in the Pegasus galaxy./quote]

That is a great point. She had 10 years of off world experience on the flag ship team, and even when in command, she still went off world. SO i see it more of her 'go out and get things done' mentality kicking in. SOmething as the new leader of atlantis she needs to ween herself off of.

[Willow'sCat]

When I saw her join the rescue team my eyes rolled so hard I thought id be permantly damaged

If her going was a necesity to the storyline ala no other scientest capable there etc then I could have suspended my disbelief, but no. Lorne would have been a much more suitable addition IMHO.

Logical thinking in the same sentence as TPTB is wishfull thinking is it not

I am with you. In fact I posted about this ages ago in the Pro-Con Carter thread.

My main reason for thinking Carter would be a good leader was because she could see both sides, but there shouldn't be any real need for the leader to go off world unless for high levels meetings (or the PG equivalent).

In Reunion we got her doing nothing more then any marine or solider could have done. And like you say... since we had *spoilers Doppleganger*

Spoiler:

Lorne in DG, I assume he came with Carter in the first or second 'visit' to Atlantis this season... they should have used Lorne, he is also liked by many people who watch SGA, so it isn't like he would have been some blow in where people would have been wondering who he is...

for me Cater needs to stay on Atlantis, sure if there is some unique experience she can bring... I know some will say that Sheppard, McKay were in danger and they are the second and third in command of Atlantis so she may have had a good reason, but then why risk losing all three of them in one hit?

No, we *by we I mean me* know what the powers were doing and for me it didn't work.

[Cautious Explorer]

What would you think is a better situation? Would it have been better if she went with Sheppard instead of going with the recue team? In my opinion leading a rescue team like that is a far better way to become familar with an enemy than leading the inital attack. Sheppard and his team had already cleared the way for them, so there were less hostiles to deal with, they managed to make it so there was absolutely no way that they would be expected, and she was being lead by Ronan who already had been in the facility. I don't know how much better you can get than that.

That said, I don't at all think she went there to become familar with the enemy. I was simply pointing out my shock at the comment that she shouldn't go there because she wasn't familar with the Wraith. If that were a reason to stay behind then how would she or anyone ever get to the point where they can go on an op? As I originally said she may not only get into a situation where she needs to save herself, but in doing so she may save everyone (i.e. Getting other trapped members off the ship as well) and all because she was absolutely needed to look at a piece of alien technology offworld and the Wraith attacked - You can't hide from the unfamilar forever.

Oh no, I didn't mean to imply that she should have been part of the team and gone on the infiltration mission. That's something I never hope to see. I'm not that fond of how Carter is written that I want to see her actually join the team on missions.

I'm not sure what kind of military contingent is on Atlantis at the moment. If it were a case of not enough people and Carter is jumping in to help because they're short-handed, then I can accept that she's needed on the rescue mission. But if the full staff is back on Atlantis, then I think the rescue should have been left in the hands of the people who are already familiar with the Pegasus Galaxy. This is her first day. There's plenty of time for her to familiarize herself with Pegasus when people's lives aren't at stake.

I'm sure there are methods in place to introduce newcomers to the reality of the Pegasus Galaxy. I'm pretty certain they don't include leading a rescue mission into a Wraith lab. I am aware that she has a lot of experience in the Milky Way, but it doesn't necessarily translate immediately to Pegasus. I don't think this was the time or place to learn about it. I will give her credit for stepping back and letting Sheppard take charge once he and Teyla were released.

No I feel as thought they specifically wrote Hammond as an older, out of shape character so that he could not be involved as much and replaced O'neill with a character similar to him so they could continue doing that. However, I feel that they brought Sam in purposely so they could involve the leader more so than they had been. They really tried to make Weir a strong, proactive character who was very much involved (i.e. "The Real World") but there were limitations on what they could do with her and I think they like that they can do more with Sam. I think their original idea was to set Atlantis apart from Sg-1 by making Weir more involved through diplomatic situations but they had a hard time writing enough of those in so she didn't develop as much as they wanted. That is completely baseless speculation on my part though.

I don't think TPTB ever really knew what to do with Weir. I think they want to bring in an old familiar character that's easy to write for. Since they're more comfortable with Carter, she probably will get more involvment than Weir did. I have the feeling it's going to be more technobabble than anything.

I don't think they would do that. Look at this episde as an example - In the same episode Carter was introduced she still took second stage to the main act. However, I think they're going to build her character a bit instead of focusing on minor people who we never see again or die. For example, normally they would be a background scientist who comes in to help Zelenka and Rodney and now I suspect that will be Sam. Also previously we would've gotten either no-names or Lorne (depending on if the actor was available) to save Sheppard and now we got Carter. The show would be pretty boring if it became about her as she can't take over Sheppard's team and run offworld with him all the time and they can't make the show about a fixed location as danger doesn't come to them that often where as in Star Trek they were always flying into danger. So, from time to time I think we'll see more of her involvement than we had seen with previously leaders, but not so much so that it overshadows the established cast members.

Sadly, I like those minor characters. They help give Atlantis its character. And I would have much preferred to see Lorne come to the rescue than Carter. So far, and I know it's early in the season, but Carter showing up means a quick-fix is coming. Extend the sensors, find Atlantis and save the day. Fly to the planet, stroll into the Wraith lab, shoot a Wraith and go home. At least with Lorne, there's a chance things will go wrong, that they'll have to fight a little harder to get out. Sometimes being overly competent just becomes overly boring.

[Agent_Dark]

It doesn't improve morale to have the leader run into combat. It shows the starting of a pattern of bad decision-making, which lowers morale.

Mmm, no the opposite actually. It shows she can get dirty with the rest of the troops and shakes the image of a REMF. I can guarantee you that having your boss working right next to you, getting their hands dirty in the same crap that you are is a very good thing for morale.
Can it happen all the time? No, of course not. Even Carter doesn't have that much micro. No one does.

[elbo]

Yes is very logical. From time to time, even if the risk of capturing exist.

Sam makes efforts to integrate in the group and this can be done participating to the team's actions, form in-world and off-world, from time to time. Not by siting all day in your office and just exiting in the balcony more for the cameras and contributing to the show by in-hale and ex-hale the fresh air of the ocean.

Also facing with the capture of the flag team, this is a special situation, and Sam has a unique experience in those sort of infiltration/rescue ops. Maby you notice that SGA didn't used those sort of mission too often.

[Willow'sCat]

Yes is very logical. From time to time, even if the risk of capturing exist.

Sam makes efforts to integrate in the group and this can be done participating to the team's actions, form in-world and off-world, from time to time. Not by siting all day in your office and just exiting in the balcony more for the cameras and contributing to the show by in-hale and ex-hale the fresh air of the ocean.

Also facing with the capture of the flag team, this is a special situation, and Sam has a unique experience in those sort of infiltration/rescue ops. Maby you notice that SGA didn't used those sort of mission too often.

Sam is the leader not part of the TEAM, therefore she needs to lead by giving the orders and staying behind to help protect Atlantis.

What you see as pen pushing is all part of her new role. If she wasn't prepared for that, then she should have turned the leadership *role* down. She made her bed, now she must learn to pick her battles, this was not one of them imho. She had no idea, right up to seeing Sheppard that Ronon's "friends" had double crossed them. She had bad intel, she should have suspected something more, so she imho put not only herself at risk in her first week but possibly all of Atlantis...she made a bad decision.

Well at least one thing hasn't changed I suppose.

[prion]

What I'd like to see addressed (which wasn't in this episode) is the scientists', etc. reaction to the city now being under *military* rule. It was civilian before, but not the military is calling the shots.

You know, it wasn't explained or shown why Sam decided to go on the rescue mission, instead of sending someone else (except that the writers decided to do it). She just made a decision. Hope the SGC doesn't call while she's off...

Chuck: Hello?
SGC: We'd like to speak to Colonel Carter.
Chuck: SHe's not here right now. She's on a rescue mission. Can I take a message?
SGC: Who's in charge?
Chuck: Hmm, that would be me ....

[elbo]

I think that there is a confusion between a civil leadership and a military leadership. Those are quite different things. The ranking officer is participating often in missions, in which his/her military skills are required or needed, by the circuumstances, while the civil leader has really no purpose in a military mission.

To be specific, this was a important rescue mission, in which the flag team was captured, with a higher importance than what a major (ex. Lorne) can handle. Really if both Sheppard and Sam were available Sam would have never go off-world, but so is very logical like she had to lead the operation, instead of leting it to someone with much less experience.

Yes the risk existed and Sam is that character that take a risk when necesarey, not only speak on city wide about the bravery of others.