'Doppelganger' (404) General Discussion

[Ruffles]

As to forming quick frienships, please look to my reply to Uber. Zelenka was VISIBLY there from the beginning, yet - in writers' eyes - he doesn't qualify.

Perhaps because he wasn't having any trouble sleeping?

[Uber]

Overall, you've made some great point, and I agree that we've learned quite a bit about each character. Yes, Evil Sheppard was very convincing (thanks to the many talents of Joe Flanigan), and this alone is the one saving grace of this episode.

However, I have a major issue with two scenes involving Keller. One of them was the chitchat with Carter following the announcement of Heightmeyer's death. Keller - who couldn't talk herself out of the job fast enough 5 episodes ago - is now giving encouragment to a bloody SGC veteran?! A little presumptious, if not arrogant.

I think it could have been...but Jen qualified her comment. To me it looked like she really meant what she said and then, realizing who she said it to, added that she didn't need to hear that from her. I think she realized that it could have sounded presumptuous and wanted Carter to know that she meant it with the best of intentions.

But Carter understood what she was saying and appreciated both the words and the sentiment. Regardless of how long her service record has been, I'm sure it's always nice to know that someone found some small measure of comfort and strength in what she says.

The other moment was Keller (and Carter) joining Sheppard's team at the end of the episode. How did these two earn their friendship so quickly? While Zelenka - who's been there from the beginning, who's gone hunting (fine, bird watching) with Ronon, is Rodney's friend, and has been on a recent and vital mission with Sheppard - somehow doesn't belong there? Not attractive enough for that table, I guess.

That's why the episode should have ended with the pretty lights slowly blinking into being all over the forest.

Actually I liked that scene. It wasn't a "beat you over the head" kind of moment...but rather a subtle acknowledgment that these people, some of whom have known each other for a couple years, one for a couple months and one for a couple weeks, all found a need to connect with each other on some level. And here we saw the veterans opening their arms (metaphorically) to the new kids on the block and letting them know that they understood how they felt, shared those feelings and welcomed them into their fold. Although it happened for the worst of reasons, those same reasons created their first chance for them all to begin to build bridges and bonds with each other on some level.

I would love to have seen Radek and Evan join them at the table but the moment wasn't ruined for me by their absence.

[BoyNamedSue]

Perhaps because he wasn't having any trouble sleeping?

And that's too bad - like Shadow mentioned - why not give that chance to a secondary character?

[Uber]

And that's too bad - like Shadow mentioned - why not give that chance to a secondary character?

Well they did. Both Lorne and Keller are recurring characters on the show.

Although I'll reiterate that I would also have loved to have seen a Radek nightmare...a Carter one too...but there was only 42 minutes or so of show and we did get the main team plus 2 recurring characters.

[AGateFan]

maybe the door was unlocked since Keller was already in there and she should have some kind of clearance for medical emergencies

Teyla should have clearance for medical emergencies?

Not sure where Kate H. grew up but my doors are always locked when I go to sleep. Sure everyone on Atlantis should have had background checks and stuff but still...... do you really want the possibility of say, Kavanagh getting in your stuff? Or maybe one of the less socially enabled science geeks taking a peek? Or being what her job is, maybe she would take some notes home with her to take a look at, do they really need to be in an unsecured room anyone can just walk into when your sleeping?

Just seems like she would lock her door and the only way to open it would be for Security or Medical staff to unlock it. But maybe Teyla has all the command codes and can go where she wants. Hopefully shes not a kleptomaniac.

EDIT: Or are you saying Keller was already in Kates room when Teyla got there? Because I thought Teyla found Kate and then called medical which means she had access to Kates room. Of course I guess Kate could have programed her door to let Teyla in anytime.......but why, is Teyla like Kramer, does she come over just whenever . Actually I dont care that much, it didnt distract me from the show which I thought was good enough...its just one of those little things that if you think too much about you start to wonder about.

[P-90_177]

Overall, you've made some great point, and I agree that we've learned quite a bit about each character. Yes, Evil Sheppard was very convincing (thanks to the many talents of Joe Flanigan), and this alone is the one saving grace of this episode.

However, I have a major issue with two scenes involving Keller. One of them was the chitchat with Carter following the announcement of Heightmeyer's death. Keller - who couldn't talk herself out of the job fast enough 5 episodes ago - is now giving encouragment to a bloody SGC veteran?! A little presumptious, if not arrogant. The other moment was Keller (and Carter) joining Sheppard's team at the end of the episode. How did these two earn their friendship so quickly? While Zelenka - who's been there from the beginning, who's gone hunting (fine, bird watching) with Ronon, is Rodney's friend, and has been on a recent and vital mission with Sheppard - somehow doesn't belong there? Not attractive enough for that table, I guess.

That's why the episode should have ended with the pretty lights slowly blinking into being all over the forest.

why should the fact that carter and keller forming a friendship like that is unbeleivable. The way i see it, they are both people who have very recently been given command (one way or another) of a major team. For keller it's the entire medical staff, for carter it's the entire expedition.

For keller the thing she was nervous about is not being a doctor on atlantis, it was that she had to be in charge of the entire medical staff.
Just like Carter is nervous about being in charge of all atlantis.

This in my opinion puts them in the same boat. They're both highly experienced and good at what they do but they've suddenly been flung into a situation that neither of them really expected.

so really it doesn't surprise me in the least that keller was there for sam like that. in fact it's quite natural.

[Mack_1]

I think it could have been...but Jen qualified her comment. To me it looked like she really meant what she said and then, realizing who she said it to, added that she didn't need to hear that from her. I think she realized that it could have sounded presumptuous and wanted Carter to know that she meant it with the best of intentions.

But Carter understood what she was saying and appreciated both the words and the sentiment. Regardless of how long her service record has been, I'm sure it's always nice to know that someone found some small measure of comfort and strength in what she says.

I so agree with you here, she is still finding her footing and she is going to do/speak and ment what she is saying regarless who she is talking to, and could there be a little of "I know how you feel, cause I'm in the same position as a new leader/dr in base, to me she sound sincere and Carter aprecieted for what it was...support

Actually I liked that scene. It wasn't a "beat you over the head" kind of moment...but rather a subtle acknowledgment that these people, some of whom have known each other for a couple years, one for a couple months and one for a couple weeks, all found a need to connect with each other on some level. And here we saw the veterans opening their arms (metaphorically) to the new kids on the block and letting them know that they understood how they felt, shared those feelings and welcomed them into their fold. Although it happened for the worst of reasons, those same reasons created their first chance for them all to begin to build bridges and bonds with each other on some level.

I would love to have seen Radek and Evan join them at the table but the moment wasn't ruined for me by their absence.

Neither for me. I just love that scene, they are becoming a new team.

[BoyNamedSue]

Perhaps because he wasn't having any trouble sleeping?

Well they did. Both Lorne and Keller are recurring characters on the show.

Although I'll reiterate that I would also have loved to have seen a Radek nightmare...a Carter one too...but there was only 42 minutes or so of show and we did get the main team plus 2 recurring characters.

Well, actually, my reply to Ruffles should say: Well, in that case Lorne should have been at that table, and Carter shouldn't.

I'm in total support of Carter in charge of Atlantis - she's got experience and her own command skills to stand on. Keller, not so much. That's why they should have sent an experienced, competent replacement for Beckett when they decided to sent in Carter to replace Weir.

Bottom line, Keller is the ultimate Mary-Sue of the Stargate franchise.

[Uber]

Well, actually, my reply to Ruffles should say: Well, in that case Lorne should have been at that table, and Carter shouldn't.

I'm in total support of Carter in charge of Atlantis - she's got experience and her own command skills to stand on. Keller, not so much. That's why they should have sent an experienced, competent replacement for Beckett when they decided to sent in Carter to replace Weir.

Bottom line, Keller is the ultimate Mary-Sue of the Stargate franchise.

Perhaps but so far she's not rubbing me the wrong way, which amazes me because I loved Carson and was set to not appreciate whoever filled his sizable shoes. I appreciate her humor, her self-deprecating wit, and I think she'll be an interesting character to get to know. I like what I see so far but only time will tell how she'll turn out in the long run.

[Cautious Explorer]

Carter making one reference to her past in this episode is not overdoing it. I doubt it will turn into a trend but I imagine that her history and experience will come up in the future. But then, that's one of the main reasons Carter's there...because she does have a wealth of experience from which to draw that can potentially help the expedition. They can use and expound on her time on SG-1 just like they did in Doppelganger.

One reference to Carter's past would have been tolerable. But there were multiple references to Carter's past, if not by Carter herself, then by those around her. IMO it was just too much.

Those references, the comparison to O'Neill's experience, the convenient dream machine, simply reinforced for me that Carter has seen it all, done it all and will serve as a convenient source for last-minute technolgical saves. Makes it easier for the writers I suppose. Who needs creativity when Carter's there?

I disagree. Carter has far more expeirence than anyone else on the team. While she doesnt have much experience in the Pegasus galaxy she does have 10 years of experience to draw from. I'd agree with you if the lines felt rushed or out of place and the didn't IMHO.

I thought they were out of place. Very awkward. Especially Kate's comment. I'm not sure she would have felt compelled to spit that out in front of everyone. It wasn't really pertinent. Carter had already established that she'd already seen her share of alien entities, blah, blah... I've not doubt she would have regaled us with her own experience had it applied. It just seemed like another little hint toward yet one more SG-1 episode we the viewers should check out.

Maybe if I were an SG-1 fan it would be a fun little trip down memory lane, but since I'm not, it just seemed like awkward writing.

I'm sorry but the fact she has experience with similar situations is realistic and part of the story. Nothing in this ep was a rehash it was vaguely similar that's it.

But the writers took pains to point out to us that they were recycling elements of an earlier SG-1 story. Why shouldn't we take them at their word? Apparently it wasn't an exact match, but there must have been enough similarties for them to feel the need to point it out.

I'm afraid Carter is going to be a crutch. Ran out of plot ideas? That's okay. Carter will make refrence to it so it's no longer about a reused plot, but all about Carter's vast experience coming into play. Wrote yourself into a corner? That's okay. Carter will come up with a solution from her many years of SG-1 experience, or introduce an ingenious piece of alien technology she's discovered along the way.

6.) considering that we were lead to believe that this would be a Sheppard centric episode, we really didn't get much of Sheppard. Sure, he was on screen a lot, but that doesn't qualify it as a Sheppard centric episode. The stargate is onscreen a lot too, but that doesn't make every episode a gate centric episode.

Alas, Shep didn't have much to do this episode except say "I can't control what people dream" and I almost thought, it's his day off, what with wearing the fleece pullover (although that was so we viewers could figure out which Shep was which during the fight scene).

That was disappointing. Once, again we didn't really learn anything new about Sheppard. JF did a terrific job with what he was given, but he did spend a lot of time just looking evil, and fighting evil Sheppard in the end. It would have been nice to go somewhere new with his character.

[Uber]

Well again...it was Carter's first full episode in command of the expedition so my sense was the writers were using bits from the episode and what the team was experience and comparing/contrasting it with Carter's experience to give a little insight to the people who don't know her that she does have a wealth of experience. And of course for fans who do know her, it was a nod that they're acknowledging her history.

But although I'm sure they and she will reference things from SG-1...either overtly or as offhandedly as most of the references were here...I very doubt strongly that there would be anything like what happened in her first full episode as base CO.

[prion]

Bottom line, Keller is the ultimate Mary-Sue of the Stargate franchise.

No, a Mary Sue is a perfect character, sure of herself, who can solve any problem, so realistically, Carter comes closest to that. And Felger is the Marty Sue… the bumbling geeky scientist who lusts after the blonde scientist

why should the fact that carter and keller forming a friendship like that is unbeleivable. The way i see it, they are both people who have very recently been given command (one way or another) of a major team. For keller it's the entire medical staff, for carter it's the entire expedition.

so really it doesn't surprise me in the least that keller was there for sam like that. in fact it's quite natural.

I’m just not sure why Keller was hanging around the communications area while Carter did her speech. Keller’s been on the base for a while, so she must have established friendships before Carter came. I think the reason why Keller and Carter are bonding as such is driven purely by the fact the writers have ‘shiny new toys’ to play with (which is par for the course on the Stargates).

Well they did. Both Lorne and Keller are recurring characters on the show.

Although I'll reiterate that I would also have loved to have seen a Radek nightmare...a Carter one too...but there was only 42 minutes or so of show and we did get the main team plus 2 recurring characters.

Ah, just pop in one of the ten years of SG1 to find a carter nightmare

However, I have a major issue with two scenes involving Keller. One of them was the chitchat with Carter following the announcement of Heightmeyer's death. Keller - who couldn't talk herself out of the job fast enough 5 episodes ago - is now giving encouragment to a bloody SGC veteran?! A little presumptious, if not arrogant. The other moment was Keller (and Carter) joining Sheppard's team at the end of the episode. How did these two earn their friendship so quickly? While Zelenka - who's been there from the beginning, who's gone hunting (fine, bird watching) with Ronon, is Rodney's friend, and has been on a recent and vital mission with Sheppard - somehow doesn't belong there? Not attractive enough for that table, I guess.

That's why the episode should have ended with the pretty lights slowly blinking into being all over the forest.

To me it should have ended with the pretty lights scene rather than the ‘bonding’ scene as it just seemed tacked on, as if to say ‘look, they’ve all bonded!’ In some respects, Doppelganger is season 4’s “38 Minutes.” Harrowing experience, etc. everybody is buddies at the end. I didn’t see Keller as arrogant but the writers wanting to put the ‘new’ characters in the limelight. The problem with season 4 in some respects is that what they should have done in between LIFELINE and REUNION is have a transition episode (not just indicate it in a throwaway line or two that unspecified time has passed) showing everybody getting their bearings back, checking out the planet, etc. Carter could have waited one episode (during that unspecified time period) before appearing, and given fans an idea of what the team was going through. I mean, heck, they’re on a new planet and they might as well as taken a U-Haul and moved around the block, for all the non-excitement that has happened with that fact. * cough *

And I have to disagree with this. It may be 5 episodes, but it was established in First Strike that she had been there for some time. Weeks passed from the end of Lifeline to Reunion and an untold amount of time has passed from Reunion to Doppleganger. While it may not have played out on screen, she has had ample time to form friendships.

They never gave a time period, although Mallozzi said he thought a few (or was it several?) weeks had passed. Of course, Sam had better not become friends with Teyla as Teyla’s friends all seem to die, don’t they? Beckett? Weir (for all intents and purposes, gone), Kate… damned, the black widow curse of sorts!

[Falcon Horus]

Might not come as much of a surprise, but I have my own little theories why Teyla had access to Kate's quarters. Since a romantic relationship is only in the eye of the beholder (me), I have to go with the fact that both ladies are good friends, therefor it is my believe they allowed each other free access to each other quarters.

EDIT: Or are you saying Keller was already in Kates room when Teyla got there? Because I thought Teyla found Kate and then called medical which means she had access to Kates room.

Teyla was first. Keller arrived later.

[Jumper_One]

Teyla should have clearance for medical emergencies?

Not sure where Kate H. grew up but my doors are always locked when I go to sleep. Sure everyone on Atlantis should have had background checks and stuff but still...... do you really want the possibility of say, Kavanagh getting in your stuff? Or maybe one of the less socially enabled science geeks taking a peek? Or being what her job is, maybe she would take some notes home with her to take a look at, do they really need to be in an unsecured room anyone can just walk into when your sleeping?

Just seems like she would lock her door and the only way to open it would be for Security or Medical staff to unlock it. But maybe Teyla has all the command codes and can go where she wants. Hopefully shes not a kleptomaniac.

EDIT: Or are you saying Keller was already in Kates room when Teyla got there? Because I thought Teyla found Kate and then called medical which means she had access to Kates room. Of course I guess Kate could have programed her door to let Teyla in anytime.......but why, is Teyla like Kramer, does she come over just whenever . Actually I dont care that much, it didnt distract me from the show which I thought was good enough...its just one of those little things that if you think too much about you start to wonder about.

sry for the confusion. I just rewatched the episode and I made a mistake. I thought Teyla was entering the room finding Keller looking over Dr H's body. but clearly it was the other way around. maybe Teyla does have command clearance though I'd find that a little odd. anyway sry again my mistake

[Jumper_One]

Well again...it was Carter's first full episode in command of the expedition so my sense was the writers were using bits from the episode and what the team was experience and comparing/contrasting it with Carter's experience to give a little insight to the people who don't know her that she does have a wealth of experience. And of course for fans who do know her, it was a nod that they're acknowledging her history.

But although I'm sure they and she will reference things from SG-1...either overtly or as offhandedly as most of the references were here...I very doubt strongly that there would be anything like what happened in her first full episode as base CO.

I totally agree