'Doppelganger' (404) General Discussion

[ShadowMaat]

Are we meant to believe that Heightmeyer dreamed she died and thus died for real? I found that whole thing very confusing because we got the scene from Teyla's perspective and Teyla was the one who was worried about the "real" Heightmeyer. If it was the doc's dream, though, what was the point of Teyla being in it? And why did Teyla wake up worried? Are they supposed to be friends or something? And again, if it was her dream, why see it from Teyla's POV? Dream logic can be a little screwy sometimes, but in all the other dreams the dreamer was at the center of whatever was happening.

If it was Teyla's dream, though, why would Heightmeyer be dead in the waking world? And why would the entity have gone back to her, anyway?

I think that's part of why I didn't take the death very seriously. The perspective was wrong, Carter's speech was appallingly trite and the "bonding" moment she shared with Keller was so... cheesy that I couldn't believe it was all really happening. It was a particularly bad piece of writing in an all-around bad script. That's what I think, anyway.

[BoyNamedSue]

I see TPTB are still dusting off old SG1 scripts. Sad. Really sad.

Oh yes, let's kill off another well-liked character. *shakes head*

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one feeling that way... I especially enjoyed Carter reminding us that "yes, been there, done that, seen it all". So why do it again?

And yes, let's kill off another inteligent, well-liked, well-acted character so that Dr. Keller looks so much more appealing/smarter/better.

[BoyNamedSue]

If it was Teyla's dream, though, why would Heightmeyer be dead in the waking world? And why would the entity have gone back to her, anyway?

I think that's part of why I didn't take the death very seriously. The perspective was wrong, Carter's speech was appallingly trite and the "bonding" moment she shared with Keller was so... cheesy that I couldn't believe it was all really happening. It was a particularly bad piece of writing in an all-around bad script. That's what I think, anyway.

I think Heightmeyer died as a result of her brain believing that she was in mortal danger - but on the other hand how many of us have dreamt about falling off the cliff and waking up panting, heart racing? I know I have.

Yes, that speach from Keller was all wrong - I totally agree with you there. And didn't she just need reassurance from Weir not too long ago? Now she's reassuring Carter, of all people, who's a fricking field veteran?!

Horrible, horrible writing. The worst SGA episode to date. I sure hope the rest of season 4 will not go down that way...

[kirmit]

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one feeling that way... I especially enjoyed Carter reminding us that "yes, been there, done that, seen it all". So why do it again?

And yes, let's kill off another inteligent, well-liked, well-acted character so that Dr. Keller looks so much more appealing/smarter/better.

It wasn't like that, she was in a similar situation years ago, why would she just ignore that when it was relevant to the situation? It could've helped find a solution, it wasn't asif she was totally out of context. This is why she's incharge, she has the experiences and knowledge to be a better leader than Weir was.

[jckfan55]

I've already answered this question.

I will say that doing this too often would get old fast but her first full episode as the leader...it makes sense to me that they'd put in a few establishing comments.Other than saying, "I've had these experiences and therefore can relate to your situation." She's sympathetic, not only because that's a part of her nature but also because she's been there herself.She didn't bring up the entity bit. Heightmeyer did and Carter confirmed it by saying, "Yeah...that wasn't a personal highlight." That few seconds when the question was asked and answered did not in any way take me out of the story nor detract from the plot in any way.

The only time she said, "I've been there too" was regarding artificially keeping herself awake and again...she was showing that yes, she has those experiences and also that because she's been there, she understands and can relate to the situation at hand.

I agree. It would have seemed unnatural for her not to acknowledge the similarities in her own experiences when a good many of us as viewers would be thinking of them. I don't think it was excessive except maybe in the sense that since the writers were borrowing so much from themselves that it made for parallels to SG1's experiences.

Oh, and a vote for stand alone episodes. I think you can develop characters just fine in stand alone episodes.

[AGateFan]

Are we meant to believe that Heightmeyer dreamed she died and thus died for real? I found that whole thing very confusing because we got the scene from Teyla's perspective and Teyla was the one who was worried about the "real" Heightmeyer. If it was the doc's dream, though, what was the point of Teyla being in it? And why did Teyla wake up worried? Are they supposed to be friends or something? And again, if it was her dream, why see it from Teyla's POV? Dream logic can be a little screwy sometimes, but in all the other dreams the dreamer was at the center of whatever was happening.

If it was Teyla's dream, though, why would Heightmeyer be dead in the waking world? And why would the entity have gone back to her, anyway?

I think that's part of why I didn't take the death very seriously. The perspective was wrong, Carter's speech was appallingly trite and the "bonding" moment she shared with Keller was so... cheesy that I couldn't believe it was all really happening. It was a particularly bad piece of writing in an all-around bad script. That's what I think, anyway.

She died of cliche.

Seriously, "if you die in your dreams you die in real life" is a long accepted scifi cliche. Knowing this it was easy to summize it was Kates dream....after I got over the intial vertigo of it not being Telyas dream (and after I figured out who exactly it was that died... I didnt recognize her out of uniform nor did I recognize her first name, even if I cant spell her last )

I wasnt impressed with Carters speech, but then I was never impressed with Weirs either. Intercom speeches are not these TPTB strongpoint... maybe they should get some training from the guy that made B5.

I also felt Kellers reassurance of Carter was not really needed and was more telling the audience that Carter did a good job...this was the only scene of "hard sell" that I actually noticed. The references to SG-1 made sense in context since the plot was essentially taken from there. And since they needed the gamekeeper gear. If Carter had not been there, one of the others (or whatever leader they added in Weirs absence) would have had to bring it up. At least in this case Carter could do a quick, well we ran into it and then they could move on...not someone saying how they read SG-1 ran into it and then explain it. I actually think having Carter there may cut down on some of the explanation since no one has to explain how they came to that knowledge. But hopefully we will have some original plots so that SG-1 experience wont be as needed as some fear.

[ShadowMaat]

She died of cliche.

Seriously, "if you die in your dreams you die in real life" is a long accepted scifi cliche.

Oh, I get that part of it easily enough, but the "dream" itself was nonsensical, IMO. If it's Heightmeyer's dream we should see it from HEIGHTMEYER'S PERSPECTIVE. She dreamed of falling and died in real life. Simple enough. But WTF was Teyla doing in the dream? Why was it from her perspective and not Heightmeyer's? And even with the skewed perspective, why the hell would Teyla wake up going, "OMG! Heightmeyer!"? How would she know what happened in someone else's dream?

Otherwise it's a pretty damn idiotic coincidence to have Heightmeyer's Dream Teyla witness the death and Real World Teyla wake up worried. VERY clumsy writing. Very poorly done.

[Falcon Horus]

There is the end of Kate's dream with the... *swallow* ...thud, fading to black. And the next person we see is Teyla or Keller entering Kate's quarters, Teyla telling she came to check on Heightmeyer because she hadn't reported for duty yet.

We didn't see Teyla wake up though, otherwise the dream could have been hers and Kate would have still benn alive (which I would have preferred to the reality).

Unless I'm missing something, and I don't really feel up to watching the episode again.

[ShadowMaat]

Yeah, but it still seems like a pretty ridiculous coincidence that in the dream Teyla was the one trying to save Heightmeyer and in reality Teyla was the one who was worried about her. Of ALL of the characters involved on the show, why did it have to be Teyla who expressed concern? Surely she's not the only one in Atlantis who worries about other people?

[PG15]

It's not ridiculous at all. Teyla seems to have a special bond of friendship with Heightmeyer (I'm sure Falcon Horus can back me up on this ), considering that she had always helped her whenever the Wraith or whatever started messing with her mind (i.e. The Gift, Echoes, etc.). In fact, it's good continuity that Kate dreamed about Teyla trying to help her moments before...well, that happened.

[Falcon Horus]

I agree with PG-15.

Of course, in my shippy mind that goes a little further -> these two were more than just best friends.

[PG15]

I knew you were going to say that.

[P-90_177]

It's not ridiculous at all. Teyla seems to have a special bond of friendship with Heightmeyer (I'm sure Falcon Horus can back me up on this ), considering that she had always helped her whenever the Wraith or whatever started messing with her mind (i.e. The Gift, Echoes, etc.). In fact, it's good continuity that Kate dreamed about Teyla trying to help her moments before...well, that happened.

well in taht case shouldn't teyla have shown just a little bit more emotion when she died. I mean granted she's used to people she knows dieing but still. although the look on her face sort of looked more like shock to me. i dunno.

[majorsal]

Carter making one reference to her past in this episode is not overdoing it. I doubt it will turn into a trend but I imagine that her history and experience will come up in the future. But then, that's one of the main reasons Carter's there...because she does have a wealth of experience from which to draw that can potentially help the expedition. They can use and expound on her time on SG-1 just like they did in Doppelganger.

yes. it is.

but then, if she'd not brought up her past experiences, someone would be complaining that she's a poor leader *because* she didn't bring it up.

all the anti carter stuff i've read in this thread seems like it's just making mountains out of molehills...




sally ((()))

[Mitchell82]

I think you've just pointed out exactly why it was a bad idea to include Carter as part of the cast in the first place. I suppose it is awkward not to refer to her years of history with the SGC, but the "I remember when" lines don't help move the show forward at all.

I disagree. Carter has far more expeirence than anyone else on the team. While she doesnt have much experience in the Pegasus galaxy she does have 10 years of experience to draw from. I'd agree with you if the lines felt rushed or out of place and the didn't IMHO.

If I wanted to know about Carter's experiences with SG-1, I would have watched the episodes. When Keller explained the health risk of putting Rodney on stimulants for a prolonged period, how did Carter's "Believe it or not, I've been there too," help the story? Was she somehow confirming the medical opinion of the doctor, encouraging us to search out the episode to view for ourselves, just wandering down memory lane?

She was simply pointing out her experience in similar circumstances (Avatar) but it didn't feel out of place or hamper the story since this was a similar situation but not a rehash since the only similarity to "Avatar" was the fact they were using technology modified from the "Gamekeeper" chairs. Also the similarities to "Cold Lazarus" ended with the vague similarities to the crystal.

At this point, I don't think there is going to be anything that doesn't in some way remind Carter of something that happened while she was with SG-1. Ten years of writing history, from the same writers who are now struggling to come up with fresh ideas. I wonder if they can come up with anything that won't wring a bell with Carter.

I'm sorry but the fact she has experience with similar situations is realistic and part of the story. Nothing in this ep was a rehash it was vaguely similar that's it.