'Doppelganger' (404) General Discussion

[Freekzilla]

I really don't understand why so many people say it is like Cold Lazarus. It isn't even close the only similarity is a crystal like entity that doesnt even come close to the one in Cold Lazarus. So I don't get your point about it feeling like a recycled ep because nothing in SG-1 even comes close. As to the first point there were only three or four and they made sense considering the situation.

As others have stated, there were parts that were recylced from Cold Lazarus, but it did have a twist. The perspective shots from the crystal were vertually the same, and so was the "shock" that Sheppard got. It was the same sequence to CL: Sheppard looks at crystal, crystal looks back, Sheppard touches crystal, crystal shocks Sheppard. That whole sequence is exactly the same as CL, all you need to do it change the name to O'Neill and you can describe that sequence in Cold Lazarus. The differences come after that sequence. But it still feels recycled. They could have atleast made the crystals a different color, perhaps to denote a difference in the mentality of the crystal. Also, since this is a completely seperate series, anyone not familiar to SG-1: Cold Lazarus may not get the references. So why bother with them unless it is meant to link SG-1 fans to this new series? I'm sure someone, if not McKay, has read the mission reports including the one about "Cold Lazarus", so anyone could have made the references. And I think that would have worked MUCH better for the story and for Sam. IE: Someone remembers an old mission report about a crystaline entity like this and know that Sam was part of the team that experienced it, so they turn to her for guidance. It would make the references feel more like contribution rather than gloating about her breadth of experience. And that would go a long way in making Sam a more welcome character and contribute to the team bonding.

So I guess you arent a big fan of scifi then since that is the backbone of most scifi.

Oh please. That is not the "backbone" of SciFi. It is part of the repertoi of SciFi, but not what makes it SciFi. There is sooo much more to SciFi than just that little part. And if that's your idea of what SciFi is, then you are missing out on a lot of other goodies. If those were the back bone of scifi then you wouldn't need anyother kind of characters other than doctors and scientists. Anyone else would just be glorified red shirts or walking talking props. What I would like to see out of scifi, is more Macgyverisms, more engineering, more exploration, more cultural and political themes, etc. I don't want to see so much medicine or psychology in scifi. It's like comparing the movies "Platoon" and "Born on the 4th of July". Both are about Vietnam, and the struggles it caused, but they approach it in different ways. I prefer the Platoon style to the "BOTFOJ" way. I prefer the action to move the drama and plot, not the drama dictating the action to move the plot.

I reiterate my first point as most of the episodes that have had that in Atlantis, Hot Zone, The Gift, Duet,Conversion, The Long Goodbye, The Real World, Phantoms, Submersion, and Doppleganger have all been great.

Of those episodes that you list, I only liked Hot Zone, Duet, and Submersion. It's just ironic that, each of those come from different seasons. However, you did forget the "mind control" that the replicators did in Progeny and in The Return, and what about the halucinations they have in Echoes? Or how about the drug induced behavior modification type of mind control in Irresistable? Abeit, not prime themes of the episodes, it is a persistant element they seem to use in their writings far more than I like. It's just something I don't want any more of for a while, a long while. I think part of the reason they do it so often is, that it's an inexpensive way to tell a story.

Sorry that logic makes no sense and doesnt track at all. Sheppard was the cause of all this because of the crystal and it gave us light into Shep, as well as Rodney and their freindship grew in this. This was very much a shep ep.

My point was, and it's just my view, that the episode wasn't really about HIM, it was about the crystal entity and it's effects. He was merely a tool to bring about the crystal's effects, it wasn't really about his struggles with or because of the crystal. Conversion was very much so a Shep epi. It was about his struggle with his problem, not the problem itself.

Mabey for you but not me.

I take it you're part of the Sam Carter fanclub then. I'm not.

I agree with that.

Atleast we can agree on something.

I disagree this was a great ep and the first four eps really show how much strength this season has as to RL mabey alittle but not much.

Well, here we do disagree. The first three episodes were good, very good. But this one was quite the letdown for me. The story did not match up in quality to the directing and visual style in my book.

[PG15]

Um, he was doing nothing BEFORE the lockdown.

Oh yeah...um...a little rest after a hard trudge through the jungle?

[AGateFan]

Well, Atlantis was locked down, so technically it WAS a day off for them non-scientists/doctors.

How do lockdowns work without locks?

[Alipeeps]

As others have stated, there were parts that were recylced from Cold Lazarus, but it did have a twist. The perspective shots from the crystal were vertually the same, and so was the "shock" that Sheppard got. It was the same sequence to CL: Sheppard looks at crystal, crystal looks back, Sheppard touches crystal, crystal shocks Sheppard. That whole sequence is exactly the same as CL, all you need to do it change the name to O'Neill and you can describe that sequence in Cold Lazarus. The differences come after that sequence. But it still feels recycled. They could have atleast made the crystals a different color, perhaps to denote a difference in the mentality of the crystal.

Well, I admit I haven't seen Cold Lazarus in quite some time but I don't recall the crystals looking anything like the ones in Doppelganger. They grew in tall formations on the ground, not in small clusters on trees, and could change shape (whereas the Doppelganger crystal seemed to be nothing more than that.. a fairly simple crystal that housed an entity, not something that was intrinsically alive in itself and could change its shape etc...).

I still rather feel that saying there is a crystal and the crystal shocks someone means that the episode is a re-hash is somewhat stretching the comparison...

[Skydiver]

why should the fact that carter and keller forming a friendship like that is unbeleivable. The way i see it, they are both people who have very recently been given command (one way or another) of a major team. For keller it's the entire medical staff, for carter it's the entire expedition.

For keller the thing she was nervous about is not being a doctor on atlantis, it was that she had to be in charge of the entire medical staff.
Just like Carter is nervous about being in charge of all atlantis.

This in my opinion puts them in the same boat. They're both highly experienced and good at what they do but they've suddenly been flung into a situation that neither of them really expected.

so really it doesn't surprise me in the least that keller was there for sam like that. in fact it's quite natural.

I see it as a bonding of friends. Sam didn't necessarily want the job. From what i saw, she was offered, she accepted.. she didn't go looking for it. Neither did keller. keller was given the job then pretty much made to be 'hey, you want to quit, then quit the city, cause you're the cmo'

so i see them bonding over both being new, both being reluctant participants and both being outsiders, replacing some well known and well loved members of the expedition

that's quite the list of commonalities

sry for the confusion. I just rewatched the episode and I made a mistake. I thought Teyla was entering the room finding Keller looking over Dr H's body. but clearly it was the other way around. maybe Teyla does have command clearance though I'd find that a little odd. anyway sry again my mistake

well not neccesarily. i mean as strange as it sounds weir often left teyla in command of atlantis so teyla would have command authorisation of some sort.

personally i think they only lock from the inside. No one seems to botehr when they leave their rooms.

those could work. Or maybe, in her role as counselor, heightmeyer's office is also her quarters, so she gives her 'patients' access to come in.

My impression of the atlantis door system is that you make a list of who is/isn't allowed to enter. and you can also lock the doors...although the control room can override those locks. You can also 'ring the doorbell' out of courtesy

[prion]

Well, I admit I haven't seen Cold Lazarus in quite some time but I don't recall the crystals looking anything like the ones in Doppelganger. They grew in tall formations on the ground, not in small clusters on trees, and could change shape (whereas the Doppelganger crystal seemed to be nothing more than that.. a fairly simple crystal that housed an entity, not something that was intrinsically alive in itself and could change its shape etc...).

I still rather feel that saying there is a crystal and the crystal shocks someone means that the episode is a re-hash is somewhat stretching the comparison...

I'm hazarding a guess, but I think the crystal similarity is from the crystal's point of view, not necessarily the crystal itself (which looks radically different).

Hmm, it's been a while since I"ve seen it so if someone can find a screencap.

[Pearl of Atlantis]

I thought the episode was really good. It didn't seem rehashed from Cold Lazuras. It had a crystal and Sheppard getting shocked that seemed like the only similarity, of course I haven't seen CL in a very long time, so maybe I forgot some stuff.

The nightmares everyone had were freaky. Teyla is afraid John will turn into that bug thing again and attack, her, well that is understandable, that was very disheartening for her. Ronan's ultimate fear is being alone, hence the frantic running through an empty Atlantis and being buried alive *shudders*is the ultimate I am gonna die Alone concept. Rodney is afraid of whales. Wierd, but he has had a dream about being eaten by a whale since he was 8, and he is self proclamed to be a little messed up. I love him anyway though.
I am a little sad that they had to kill Kate off, didn't think that was necessary, but it added to the dramtic elemant. Sams speech to everyone after her death was nice though, not too leadery but not to emotionmal either.
I liked the little bit of continuity between CL and this ep, because Sam referenced what happened with the crystal thingy. Seeing if maybe it would be helpful. Its not exactly the same, meh semantics.
I do love the dream sequence with John and Rodney. How before Rodney telling John thanks for trying, aww, soo sweet.
How John is trying to help Rodney and telling him to ignore the evil Sheppard and focus on him instead. John telling Rodney its not as wierd as he thought it would be Rodney's "oh yeah, look behind you" hehe. Eeaakk Clowns, aggh I hate Clowns as well. That was just disturbing. Rodney and John get eaten by a whale and then it automatically switches to John's POV. John's greatest fear is letting his friends down and losing them, He looked just so lost and devastated by Rodney's death and I guess he is a little afraid of letting himslef down also.
The fight scene kicked ass. so good I was cringing every time John got hit. yeeshkins.
Love that Rodney went back under to help John, din't even think twice about it. Woohoo, Yay for John and Rodney friendship. I am a Mcshep girl what can I say.
Overall very good eppie.

[BoyNamedSue]

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoyNamedSue

Bottom line, Keller is the ultimate Mary-Sue of the Stargate franchise.

No, a Mary Sue is a perfect character, sure of herself, who can solve any problem, so realistically, Carter comes closest to that. And Felger is the Marty Sue… the bumbling geeky scientist who lusts after the blonde scientist

Glad you'e mentioned the perfect character requirement, although I was thinking more the quick-and-close-friendships-with-main-characters part) This is how Mallozzi described Keller in his blog of yesterday:

Anonymous #3 writes: “Just what does Keller bring to SGA that Beckett could not?”

My Name is Scott answered: “HOW MANY times to people have to be told that Weir and Carson were NOT gotten rid of FOR Carter and Keller. The decision to bring Carter and Keller was made AFTER the decision to rid Weir and Carson... why is this hard to get?? Wow!”

Anonymous #4 writes: “This is not an attack on jewel Staite, casting her as a junior doctor or a junior scientist or junior archaeologist may have worked but this is frankly ridiculous.”

Answer: So, you buy the near-instantaneous travel through a wormhole? You buy the life-sucking aliens? But you have a hard time accepting the possibility of a young virtuoso?

Now, if that's not a perfect MS, I don't know what is

My answer to Anonymous#3: BOOBS and A$$!!!

[PG15]

Oh please, when the fangirls drool over Joe Flanigan or Jason Momoa it's fine, but when the fanboys drool over Jewel or Rachel it's OMG T+A BADNESS!!11!!

Double standard anyone? I've had enough of this crap.

I see you also avoided the fact that she was indeed unsure of herself, thereby making her NOT a Mary Sue. But hey, if avoiding the facts makes it easier to put forward your "arguments", then so be it.

[ShadowMaat]

If anyone on the show is a Mary Sue, I'd say it was Sheppard.

[Falcon Horus]

Oh please, when the fangirls drool over Joe Flanigan or Jason Momoa it's fine, but when the fanboys drool over Jewel or Rachel it's OMG T+A BADNESS!!11!!

Excuse me, there are also fangirls drooling over Jewel and Rachel. And I'm sure Joe and Jason have their fair amount of fanboy-drooling too.

If anyone on the show is a Mary Sue, I'd say it was Sheppard.

Really?

[BoyNamedSue]

Oh please, when the fangirls drool over Joe Flanigan or Jason Momoa it's fine, but when the fanboys drool over Jewel or Rachel it's OMG T+A BADNESS!!11!!

Double standard anyone? I've had enough of this crap.

I see you also avoided the fact that she was indeed unsure of herself, thereby making her NOT a Mary Sue. But hey, if avoiding the facts makes it easier to put forward your "arguments", then so be it.

Fangirl/boy-ing becomes a problem when a character is designed specifically to fulfil that purpose. Is Sheppard just a window-dressing? Is Ronon there so the drooling women would watch SGA? They are there so the fanboys can identify with them.

It's hard to talk about facts when all we do here is express our opinions. Keller fits my definition of MS perfectly. You don't have to agree.

[Ruffles]

Oh please, when the fangirls drool over Joe Flanigan or Jason Momoa it's fine, but when the fanboys drool over Jewel or Rachel it's OMG T+A BADNESS!!11!!

Double standard anyone? I've had enough of this crap.

I see you also avoided the fact that she was indeed unsure of herself, thereby making her NOT a Mary Sue. But hey, if avoiding the facts makes it easier to put forward your "arguments", then so be it.

Drool all you want. No double standard here. JF is completely hot, and if they keep dressing Jason in that sleeveless leather outfit, I may have to install another cooling system in my house.

For me - the fact that Jewel is young and cute has no bearing on how I view Keller. I can just as easily believe that Rodney has 3-4 PhDs and years of experience at his age and that Sheppard would be allowed in the active military with that haircut. Keller is a brilliant doctor that is unsure of herself and a bit overwhelmed at the position she has found herself in.

Carson was not only chief surgeon but an unparalleled geneticist and had a thorough knowledge of triage and oncology. Sure. The same way Rodney knows everything about everything and John can shoot like a sniper, fly anything in 2 galaxies, and strategize like a general. They are all young virtuosos.

[Falcon Horus]

My sister (semi-casual viewer) just watched this episode and I asked what she thought of it.

She wasn't impressed, not in the least. Her exact words -> "Deja-vu!"
Also she would prefer it if Carter would stop referencing to SG1-missions and apparently Sam even channeled Daniel at one point.
And then she also said that she had the impression they sometimes tend to bring Teyla into a scene she has nothing else to do in but be her beautiful self.

This was in other words a complete miss in her opinion.

[Mattathias2.0]

Excuse me, there are also fangirls drooling over Jewel and Rachel. And I'm sure Joe and Jason have their fair amount of fanboy-drooling too.

*Raises hand for JF*