'Doppelganger' (404) General Discussion

[garhkal]

Jeeze louse,, 16 pages since yesterday.... Wow.

[AGateFan]

not neccesarily. I mean the yare friends. quite close too from what i can tell. Perhaps they'd organised to have breakfast that morning, or even planned to have a follow up session from when she had that dream about shep. She went to wherever they planned to meet up. She never arrived. Teyla first thought she was just late, then got more concerned, tried to get her on the radio and then finally went down to her room where she found that she had never woken up. it doesn't take much stretch of the imagination to work out........on the other hand she really may have gone for a quickie.

So Teyla has keys to Kate H. apartment, or is Atlantis uber communal? Seems like she would need security there to open the door.

[Alipeeps]

Are we meant to believe that Heightmeyer dreamed she died and thus died for real? I found that whole thing very confusing because we got the scene from Teyla's perspective and Teyla was the one who was worried about the "real" Heightmeyer. If it was the doc's dream, though, what was the point of Teyla being in it? And why did Teyla wake up worried? Are they supposed to be friends or something? And again, if it was her dream, why see it from Teyla's POV? Dream logic can be a little screwy sometimes, but in all the other dreams the dreamer was at the center of whatever was happening.

If it was Teyla's dream, though, why would Heightmeyer be dead in the waking world? And why would the entity have gone back to her, anyway?

I think that's part of why I didn't take the death very seriously. The perspective was wrong, Carter's speech was appallingly trite and the "bonding" moment she shared with Keller was so... cheesy that I couldn't believe it was all really happening. It was a particularly bad piece of writing in an all-around bad script. That's what I think, anyway.

As a few others have mentioned, the dream was from Kate's POV though it was filmed deliberately confusingly at the start to make us think it was another Teyla dream.. it was a storytelling conceit, just like having the viewer POV jump straight into John's dream after the whale swallowed the boat, so that we wouldn't be sure what was real or who was dreaming what.

We never saw Teyla wake up or know what had happened to Kate in her dream - Teyla explained that she had come looking for Kate because she hadn't shown up for work. Teyla and Kate were friends.

She died of cliche.

Seriously, "if you die in your dreams you die in real life" is a long accepted scifi cliche. Knowing this it was easy to summize it was Kates dream....after I got over the intial vertigo of it not being Telyas dream (and after I figured out who exactly it was that died... I didnt recognize her out of uniform nor did I recognize her first name, even if I cant spell her last )

It is a cliché, and not just in sci-fi. However, in this case, it could be more pragmatic than that... from what we saw of McKay and Sheppard's situation, the entity causes its victims to go into cardic arrest. When Rodney's dream ended with death by whale he went into arrest and when Sheppard was struggling with the entity - and losing - in his dream, his heart rate was affected and became dangerously high. It would seem that the strain of "experiencing" death in the dream puts too much strain on the body..? Or, as Morpheus explained to Neo, "your mind makes it real".

The references to SG-1 made sense in context since the plot was essentially taken from there. And since they needed the gamekeeper gear. If Carter had not been there, one of the others (or whatever leader they added in Weirs absence) would have had to bring it up. At least in this case Carter could do a quick, well we ran into it and then they could move on...not someone saying how they read SG-1 ran into it and then explain it. I actually think having Carter there may cut down on some of the explanation since no one has to explain how they came to that knowledge. But hopefully we will have some original plots so that SG-1 experience wont be as needed as some fear.

Good point there. If Carter hadn't been in charge of Atlantis at this point, whoever was, whether that be Weir or someone else, would have had to give a much lengthier explanation of the technology and where it came from and why it might help.

Yeah, but it still seems like a pretty ridiculous coincidence that in the dream Teyla was the one trying to save Heightmeyer and in reality Teyla was the one who was worried about her. Of ALL of the characters involved on the show, why did it have to be Teyla who expressed concern? Surely she's not the only one in Atlantis who worries about other people?

It's been shown before that Teyla and Heightmeyer were friends.

I never said that it was going to change, or that it hasn't always been this way.

Whether it has or has not been this way was not my point.

And really, I take issue when people suggest that people are "watching the wrong show" when they discuss an aspect to said show that they don't care for.

I gave a number of specific reasons as to why the ep didn't work for me, and thoughts on how episodes of a similar nature (iow, standalones) actually DO work for me. I don't see how my comments even warranted a "you're watching the wrong show" response, especially if I hold plenty other "standalones" in high regard.

It's this one that I had a problem with. Not the whole franchise. -_-

I think you misunderstand me... by saying "you're watching the wrong show", I wasn't in any way saying you shouldn't watch the show or shouldn't critique the show or are not entitled to be unhappy with the show. I was simply responding to your criticism that you don't like episodes that don't move the overall plot along or have long-term repercussions etc and pointing out that the Stargates have never been the kind of shows that provide that.. and that it seemed odd, to me, to expect that from them in this instance... and that if that's what you're looking for in a show, then SGA is likely to disappoint.

Maybe it's me misunderstanding the way you phrased it but saying:

Such a concept just screams "pointless" to me. There's nothing wrong with standalone eps when they have some kind of extra-normal value to bring to the canvas of the show. The thing is, most of the time, when they happen on SG, I just don't respond to it. I honestly find myself just sitting and waiting for it to be over, so I can see whether or not the next episode's promo makes next week's look any better.

There's no sense of importance to the ep itself, because I just KNOW the dream-thing isn't going to affect the show in any real way. At least not until somebody pulls a "Hey, remember the events of 'Doppleganger'?" But that doesn't excuse that I just sat through an hour of stuff I wasn't really enthralled by in order to get to the "Hey, remember the events of SuchAndSuch?" episode, later in the season/series.

[snip]

This episode, which, on first glance at least, seemed to have so little value to the show's overall story.

...seemed to indicate to me that you feel stand alone episodes that don't contribute to the show's overall story are mostly a waste of your time. Now, I'm in no way saying that you're not entitled to feel that or to express that opinion, just that it seems like you're setting yourself up for disappointment in expecting that kind of thing from a show that has historically never really offered that.

It's like watching 24 and being disappointed that there aren't more stand alone episodes that aren't related to the main plot.

[bluealien]

Fantastic episode. Probably my favourite so far. Loved how all the nightmares played out. The bug bursting out of Teyla's stomach was gross... but very well done.

Loved all the team interaction and how close they are becoming. Great performances by everyone. Keller is growing on me and she seems to be fitting in quite well. Liked Sam here and how she could actually be helpful in finding a solution to their predicament... something Weir could never do.

The fight scene between good and evil Shep was awesome... and loved how Rodney went back in to try and save Shep.
All round good characterization, good action and I loved the entity storyline.

[P-90_177]

So Teyla has keys to Kate H. apartment, or is Atlantis uber communal? Seems like she would need security there to open the door.

well from how atlantis seems to work they certainly don't usually lock their doors. if indeed the quarters lock at all.

[SGFerrit]

And me because I also disagree.

And me.

One of the things I especially liked about this episode is the way Carter is fitting in. She seems like she will be a very strong leader. That showed in her speech. She let through a bit of emotion, but not too much. In times like that, a leader should not show emotion, or fear. The people of Atlantis' needed her to be strong, and she was. I thought that was nice.

And I thought Keller was great too. Her nightmare was definately the best. Seeing Teyla there all dead and stuff was really creepy IMO. I look forward to seeing alot more of her, especially in 'Missing'. I think she is going to be very different to Carson, which is a good thing. I want her to be her own character, not a female clone of him.

[prion]

So Teyla has keys to Kate H. apartment, or is Atlantis uber communal? Seems like she would need security there to open the door.

Yeah, that was odd, or else Teyla had carte blanche to enter, and how is that done? DNA? I mean, no keys , just hand swipes.

And really, I take issue when people suggest that people are "watching the wrong show" when they discuss an aspect to said show that they don't care for.

I gave a number of specific reasons as to why the ep didn't work for me, and thoughts on how episodes of a similar nature (iow, standalones) actually DO work for me. I don't see how my comments even warranted a "you're watching the wrong show" response, especially if I hold plenty other "standalones" in high regard.

It's this one that I had a problem with. Not the whole franchise. -_-

Agreed. You can find fault with an episode or two, etc, but usually people who dislike the franchise don't bother to watch the show

Says you.

Don't think the acting was that bad, really,but the actors had so little to work with that they looked a bit... thin in places. IMO.

Alas, Shep didn't have much to do this episode except say "I can't control what people dream" and I almost thought, it's his day off, what with wearing the fleece pullover (although that was so we viewers could figure out which Shep was which during the fight scene).

I really don't understand why so many people say it is like Cold Lazarus. It isn't even close the only similarity is a crystal like entity that doesnt even come close to the one in Cold Lazarus. So I don't get your point about it feeling like a recycled ep because nothing in SG-1 even comes close. As to the first point there were only three or four and they made sense considering the situation.

Because they used, as I recall, the same camera shots (from the crystal's point of view, and the shock). Those are the similarities, and yes, SG recycles its plots with a vengeance and take from other movies as well.

[Jumper_One]

So Teyla has keys to Kate H. apartment, or is Atlantis uber communal? Seems like she would need security there to open the door.

maybe the door was unlocked since Keller was already in there and she should have some kind of clearance for medical emergencies

[ShadowMaat]

As a few others have mentioned, the dream was from Kate's POV though it was filmed deliberately confusingly at the start to make us think it was another Teyla dream.. it was a storytelling conceit, just like having the viewer POV jump straight into John's dream after the whale swallowed the boat, so that we wouldn't be sure what was real or who was dreaming what.

Conceit is right. I hated it.

It's been shown before that Teyla and Heightmeyer were friends.

Must be my loss, then. I skipped most of last season. If it was shown before that I either forgot or didn't notice. *shrug*

[Falcon Horus]

I bet you've just made FH's day with those thoughts.

Oh, you have no idea...

*residing on cloud n°9*

[Mack_1]

Hatusu wrote:
Nope. I was thinking exactly the same thing during the episode. The writers have to remember that most of Atlantis' viewers are educated in the sciences. I was waiting for the scene, or the dream scene in which the alien would reveal its motives. I thought it would be in Sheppards dream, but it never happened. The entity just turned into a mindless monster. Sheppard never even asked, "Why?".

Thank you!! I been thinking about this too, obviously the crystal has a great defence mechanism, and it could have been to Atlantis advantaged to know why they were attack or why they saw it necesary to attack in the first places.

Rose Hack wrote:
I struggled a bit with Keller in this episode, I didn't struggle with her in the previous episodes and I am not anti-Keller. To me she came off more as a scared little girl then an experienced doctor. I realize that they are trying to show her being insecure as she takes over the rein from Carson and I think she gets some stronger character growth in future episodes but it was almost too much for me in this episode.
I did love her scene with Ronon and the look on her face when he told her that he didn't think Sheppard was seeing anyone

IMPO she did good, she is still struggling with her been in command of the infirmary, and the dreams just show how afraid she is of not doing a proper job, she doubt her abilities since the last episode of season 3 of Atlantis; when she confide in Weir and told her that maybe she was out of her league/over the top here.

ShadowMatt wrote
Are we meant to believe that Heightmeyer dreamed she died and thus died for real? I found that whole thing very confusing because we got the scene from Teyla's perspective and Teyla was the one who was worried about the "real" Heightmeyer. If it was the doc's dream, though, what was the point of Teyla being in it? And why did Teyla wake up worried? Are they supposed to be friends or something? And again, if it was her dream, why see it from Teyla's POV? Dream logic can be a little screwy sometimes, but in all the other dreams the dreamer was at the center of whatever was happening.

It as from Kate’s perspective, obviously she was afraid of heights, Teyla was there just as Shapperd and assistant dr. were in Keller’s dream, why I say this? when Kate is falling, is her dropping to her dead, that’s why she die in her sleep, she when in cardiac arrest just like Mckay; only difference there was no Dr. with her to help bring her back; when Teyla awoke of her dream she could barely breath.

Carter's speech was appallingly trite and the "bonding" moment she shared with Keller was so... cheesy that I couldn't believe it was all really happening.

Maybe Keller was there because she had inform the commander of the base that the DR. had die?? Sam is getting to kwon the people she is working with, to me she did good, there was a little bit of emotion in her voice, also determination that they were to come out it this eventually, Keller just saw appropriated to show some support, after all this is a person that die while she is acting as commander of Atlantis.

[BoyNamedSue]

they haven't been shoving kellar down our throats. she's only been in it when needed. Beckett in season 2 and 3, now HE was shoved down our throats. making him a main character was a big mistake.

I completely disagree - Beckett was there from the beginning, he was a competent, confident doctor, he has an Ancient gene. Keller, on the other hand, tried to excuse herself out of the job as soon as she got it & withing 5 episodes, she's reassuring Carter and hanging out with Sheppard's team. That, in my book, is SHOVING.

[Ruffles]

I completely disagree - Beckett was there from the beginning, he was a competent, confident doctor, he has an Ancient gene. Keller, on the other hand, tried to excuse herself out of the job as soon as she got it & withing 5 episodes, she's reassuring Carter and hanging out with Sheppard's team. That, in my book, is SHOVING.

And I have to disagree with this. It may be 5 episodes, but it was established in First Strike that she had been there for some time. Weeks passed from the end of Lifeline to Reunion and an untold amount of time has passed from Reunion to Doppleganger. While it may not have played out on screen, she has had ample time to form friendships.

[BoyNamedSue]

Wow you saw this as a filler episode? It was a stand-alone, surely. But filler? I disagree strongly.

We learned a great deal about the characters, their feelings, their fears and how they tackle them and we see Carter as the new boss. Keller, a virtual unknown before, now has more depth as a doctor scared to lose control of a situation as a doctor and lose a patient. Teyla, we learn, has some deep-seeded fears of what Sheppard became in Conversion as well as a personal embarrassment about Shep and whether or not Carter trusts her yet. We see Ronon is terrified of being buried alive. Evan has some fairly significant issues with human form replicators, McKay of whales and Sheppard of clowns. Okay, Shep of a lot more than clowns but that was a great call back.

Actually Shep's was I think the most significant because I think his fear is of letting people down across the board...of failing his team and his friends and losing someone because of it. And it's happened to both Ford and Weir already...so the fear is a real one.

We also learned that he looks great when being whumped or when wet. Oh wait...we knew that already.

But even more than all of the above character tidbits...saw how they are learning to relate to each other and work together to solve problems as well as comfort each other in their mutual distresses.

And therein lies some of the jewels of this episode. The scene where Shep...while feeling guilty for his role in this...pulls up his bootstraps and faces Teyla to give her comfort over the loss of her friend. Yet another blow for this team who have lost so many in such a short period of time. The scene where Carter is put into the somewhat awkward and definitely unenviable position of announcing to everyone that someone they cared about has died and the beat afterwards when Keller gives her a word of encouragement. The softly uttered "thank you" from McKay to Sheppard before he goes into his mind and saves him from this threat.

And that very touching, yet subtle, scene at the end...where after a very rough time, they all find themselves gravitating toward the table together. Both veteran and new team members alike...all welcome and all starting to form a bond from this tragic chain of events.

So while I'll give you that this is a stand alone, I whole heartedly disagree that it was a filler ep. Filler eps...in my mind at least...do nothing to forward either plot arcs or character development whereas standalones forego the arcs only and focus in on character.

And I think Doppelganger did that quite nicely.

Overall, you've made some great point, and I agree that we've learned quite a bit about each character. Yes, Evil Sheppard was very convincing (thanks to the many talents of Joe Flanigan), and this alone is the one saving grace of this episode.

However, I have a major issue with two scenes involving Keller. One of them was the chitchat with Carter following the announcement of Heightmeyer's death. Keller - who couldn't talk herself out of the job fast enough 5 episodes ago - is now giving encouragment to a bloody SGC veteran?! A little presumptious, if not arrogant. The other moment was Keller (and Carter) joining Sheppard's team at the end of the episode. How did these two earn their friendship so quickly? While Zelenka - who's been there from the beginning, who's gone hunting (fine, bird watching) with Ronon, is Rodney's friend, and has been on a recent and vital mission with Sheppard - somehow doesn't belong there? Not attractive enough for that table, I guess.

That's why the episode should have ended with the pretty lights slowly blinking into being all over the forest.

[BoyNamedSue]

And I have to disagree with this. It may be 5 episodes, but it was established in First Strike that she had been there for some time. Weeks passed from the end of Lifeline to Reunion and an untold amount of time has passed from Reunion to Doppleganger. While it may not have played out on screen, she has had ample time to form friendships.

As to forming quick frienships, please look to my reply to Uber. Zelenka was VISIBLY there from the beginning, yet - in writers' eyes - he doesn't qualify.