Irresistible (303)

[PG15]

You got it all wrong; we're not saying it's ok, it's just that it wasn't the "point" of this episode, and thus some of us don't want to let it ruin our perception of a, once again, comedic episode.

Hell, you can read disturbing details in practically anything these days. For one, I can see racism in "Being Ian" (kids cartoon), doesn't mean it's meant to be there or at all anything more than just a figment of my imagination.

And, did you know that Cirque du soleil promotes homosexuality? (You need to watch some Colbert Report)

[xfkirsten]

And, did you know that Cirque du soleil promots homosexuality? (You need to watch some Colbert Report)

Well, knowing some of the people who perform Cirque du Soleil...

/former crew member for a Cirque-style show
//has friends who've done Cirque du Soleil
///watch out for bears!

[PG15]

///watch out for bears!

Anyway, I think my point is pretty clear. You can read this sort of "controversy" into all kinds of different things if you try hard enough.

Hell, that's pretty much all you do in English class when dissecting poems and short stories.

[Fatewarns]

I'm not entirely convinced by the rape assertions although I can see why people might see it that way. My take is that Lucius is a con-man... I think Sheppard called him a "snake oil salesman". He didn't force himself on these women but he sold them an illusion... that he was more attractive/desirable than what he was. It doesn't make him less of a villain because he still used deception to get what he wanted.

like the Sheppard said he's a con. All he really did is change the outlook of himself to the women. Making himself appear to be a better person than he is.

For example an man tells a devout Chirstian woman he just met that he donates to the church everyday. So the Chirstian woman marries the man thinking he is a good person, but finds out that he isn't donating to the church, he's buying drugs.

Edit: or a women putting on make up to appear pretty than she is. or a man putting on tag-body spray

[starfox]

Well, knowing some of the people who perform Cirque du Soleil...

/former crew member for a Cirque-style show
//has friends who've done Cirque du Soleil
///watch out for bears!

*takes a moment for awe/jealously of your former position*

And, back on-topic.


To tackle the rape issue, I don't think it's a matter of whether Lucius' actions towards women were rape or not, but whether or not the writers intended it to be so. Yes, by definition of the word rape, Lucius did rape those women, but I am sure that is not what the writers intended. I mean, c'mon, haven't you ever said something or written something only to come back later and see a completely different meaning than the one you intended? The only difference here is that the mistake is taped and on screen for people to willingly misinterpret and get offended about. Yes, as the story is written Lucius raped those women on his planet; I'm not arguing against that. The question is, did the writers mean for it to be rape? Did they mean to delve into the consent and explotation issues therein? And I do not believe that they did. The issues may be there, but I don't think they're intentional.

[HyperspaceDaemon]

Funny episode.
I disliked that the ending was very incomplete and hasty: we didn't see how Lucius was "welcomed" back to his village. It would have been a funny scene.

It's a shame that many episodes end like that: with a very quick resolution.
45min are not enough, and the producers need to cut from somewhere.

[Thunderhawk]

Well, they could just mention what happened afterwards in a later episode.

I think it could work in a dark episode, or to introduce a new cold-hearted soldier (or have Bates return)

Have the episode start off in a neutral tone with a short briefing to Weir by the Sgt of an Atlantis team that went to that planet to check up on the people/investigate a lead. In the briefing he can mention "we went to planet ...[forgot planet name] "

Weir: "hmm. " - tight mouthed, obvioussly still somewhat embarassed.

Sgt: "The people have recovered from Lucius' effect and seem to be doing fine, except for Lucius".

Weir: - small smirk on her face.

Sgt: "When the people figured out what he had done to them, they didnt take it well". *short pause* "A mob hung him in the village square".

Weir: looks up, look of shock.

Sgt: - unflinching, he continues with his report, and includes something of actual importance which will be an issue in the episode
(Maybe there is a ZPM on that planet, a Genii agent who got trapped by Lucian and has nowhere else to go or a scientist/trader who has information about something of value: that ZPM idea again)





After checking IRRESPONSIBLE and seeing the actor Richard Kind is back for another episode.. Im guessing the consequences of his actions arent going to be just left as is.

I hope they do more then just say he was "run out of town" or he cried "everybody hated me, again"



Hes a good actor, I just dont like his character (though he did it well) and I believe his character should be punished.

[wyndhamfan]

I wasn't sure what to think about it at first - I was pretty neutral about it when I first heard the spoilers, but was pleasantly surprised by how funny it is - and how the characters shined. This was an ep where you see the characters OOC, so I lurve it! Favourite moments:

Shep and McKay - Batman and Catwoman! Geeks ahoy...

Ronon staring at McKay, saying, "You got a problem with that?" McKay pointing to Shep, "No, but he might."

Ronon smiling serenly and saying, "A very wise and kind man."

Shep hitting Carson and saying, "Buck up Carson!"

McKay: "Fly, Lucius, Fly!"

Carson sobbing, "But he needs me!!" ROTFL! Shep staring at Carson as he sobs.

At the end, Shep to McKay: "I'll be back to clean your quarters ...**" He used the potion on poor Shep!! HAHAHA! OMG.

** I couldn't hear what 100% Shep said to McKay though. Can anyone fill me in?

[Flowerbud]

I dont understand why people point to the episode's 'intent' as an excuse. It doesnt matter what the intent was. What matters is what was on the screen. If someone hurts someone else, but they didn't 'intend' to do it, guess what, they're still responsible. The writers may have set out to create a funny lighthearted ep, but what they actually did was make a story that centered around rape and the victimization of a number of women. It would have been easy to avoid this by including a couple of throwaway lines. But they went out of their way to emphasize the sex on a number of occasions. So as far as the 'intent' goes, this episode doesnt get a pass.

Whether or not Lucious raped Wier and Teyla may be a point of contention (I am of the belief that he did) but was -IS- canon, is that he raped at least 6 women. He confessed that much to Shepard. And his punishment was....nothing. If, as some would suggest, only things that happen on screen are canon, then that means he got off with a slap on the wrist. Thats just not acceptable. If thats what constitutes a 'lighthearted and funny' episode, I would hate to see what they come up with when they want try to get serious.

D

I completely agree. The light-hearted, comedic tone just further drives home the point that the producers and writers are willing to trivialize the issues of rape and the victimization of women. If this show had any glimmerings of emotional honesty, those women on the planet and Weir and Teyla would feel horribly violated. It's the big elephant in the room that the boys at Bridge choose to ignore because it just gets in the way of their sexist fun.

[Flowerbud]

like the Sheppard said he's a con. All he really did is change the outlook of himself to the women. Making himself appear to be a better person than he is.

For example an man tells a devout Chirstian woman he just met that he donates to the church everyday. So the Chirstian woman marries the man thinking he is a good person, but finds out that he isn't donating to the church, he's buying drugs.

Edit: or a women putting on make up to appear pretty than she is. or a man putting on tag-body spray

There's massive difference between using a drug to get sex from a person who wouldn't otherwise have sex with you, to dressing nicely and chatting up that person/lying to the person, etc. It's against the law to do the former.

[Merlin7]

Okay, for everyone who said that I was overreacting, the above statement is the reason why I am. Please read it carefully.
That is what is so dangerous about treating a subject like this so dismissively. This episode, even if unintentionally, is reinforcing and validating this type of thinking.

Exposing someone to a chemical that weakens their mind to a point where they can not coherently consent to sex is rape. It is definately rape. No "quotes" are needed. Whether its dropping ruffies in a coke, or getting a girl so drunk she cant walk, or using some made up space herb. It doesnt matter one bit if the person under the influence is smiling and giggling the entire time because of their diminished capacity. Dont go through life thinking that it's okay to do something like that.

D

Then let's please point out that RODNEY took the drug to INFLUENCE Sheppard. Which should also be talked about and people who believed this ep was about rape and I'll call it raping of the mind at this point, then everyone on Atlantis was at risk, even though Lucius wasn't looking to jump the men. But at the same time it's the same idea and that makes Rodney as bad as Lucius. He used it knowing Shep was the only one it would work on, and he leered at Teyla. And in a way it's worse because Rodney suffered through it, then used it to get Shep to do his bidding.

So where is the commentary about what Rodney did?

[Alipeeps]

I'm not entirely convinced by the rape assertions although I can see why people might see it that way. My take is that Lucius is a con-man... I think Sheppard called him a "snake oil salesman". He didn't force himself on these women but he sold them an illusion... that he was more attractive/desirable than what he was. It doesn't make him less of a villain because he still used deception to get what he wanted.
I see him more as a cult figure... someone who has brainwashed his followers into believing that he's a god and that giving yourself over sexually to that man, you are attaining "true" spirituality or goodness.

Precisely - now that is more of a relevant comparison. His followers (for that's what they are) are effectively brainwashed, just like those in a cult (who happily do anything and everything their cult leader asks).

However, I fear this is one of those discussions that is just going to wind on and on and on... people are gonna view the episode through the filter of their own personal experience and preconceptions and if the first thing that speings to mind when you view this episode is "rape!" then nothing's gonna alter that viewpoint.

[Major Tyler]

So where is the commentary about what Rodney did?

I'm pretty sure Rodney didn't rape John...wouldn't that be an interesting episode!

I realize that TPTB didn't intend for rape and consent issues to be the focus of the episode, but the moment that woman Shep talked to said "I refused to share his bed on more than one occasion" how could TPTB expect us to draw any other conclusions? It's clear as day and canon for at least this one wife...she refused to sleep with him before Lavin got the herb, and now she sleeps with him because of it. The very definition of rape.

Let's look at this another way. What if Lavin took Teyla and Elizabeth to bed at the same time? What if he had sex with them? What would Teyla and Liz have to say about that once Carson cured them? Would we just let Lavin go, or would we castrate him and feed him to Michael?

[Merlin7]

I'm pretty sure Rodney didn't rape John...wouldn't that be an interesting episode!

I realize that TPTB didn't intend for rape and consent issues to be the focus of the episode, but the moment that woman Shep talked to said "I refused to share his bed on more than one occasion" how could TPTB expect us to draw any other conclusions? It's clear as day and canon for at least this one wife...she refused to sleep with him before Lavin got the herb, and now she sleeps with him because of it. The very definition of rape.

Let's look at this another way. What if Lavin took Teyla and Elizabeth to bed at the same time? What if he had sex with them? What would Teyla and Liz have to say about that once Carson cured them? Would we just let Lavin go, or would we castrate him and feed him to Michael?

Part of the issue has been that it's a RAPE DRUG. Whether that was Rodney's intent isn't the issue. A rape drug makes a person lose control of their, control options. So to speak. It happened to Rodney and Ronon and Beckett. Male or female. Rodney gave the drug to Sheppard, regardless of his intent for it and he LEERED at TEyla. So how is he different than Lucius then? He still took away Sheppard's control.

Basically. The writers weren't going down this route at all. They didn't care about THIS issue. And there's no canon support that Teyla or Weir were raped. Everyone was just embarrassed by their actions. But if Lucius is going to be called on giving the drug and the drug is being called a date rape drug. Then Rodney giving it, even to Shep is wrong. And his leering at Teyla before he left is wrong. I just want either everyone called on it, or it dropped.

[Auralis]

Gah, this was not bad, it was a atrocity against humanity.
The whole thing was completly disguesting and an insult.
It was not funny at all, it just highlights again how stupid the atlantis crew gets written.
gah, the worst episode of the entire francises.

This episode should never have been thought up in the first place. extending the sg1 pegasus project to a two parter instead og this steaming pile of horse dung is what should have been done.

And on the heels of the as well not good misbegotten.. if this trend continues the show is more then dead, its already rotten.

god i'm disgusted at this pile of crap.