No Man's Land (301)

[Gregorius]

Low mediocre episode, predictable storyline and poor execution of it. The biggest surprise was the destruction of the Orion due to poor battle tactics of Caldwell. Anyone who's leading an attack like that isn't worthy of the rank of colonel and should be stripped of command.

Why? Because the Orion is the more important ship of the two, since when it's completely repaired they would have a fully functional Ancient Warship. The Daedalus on the other hand is a crappy human build ship, with only good shielding and hyperspace engines due to the Asgard, which has proven time and time again it doesn't do much damage against a Wraith hive. Knowing this a decent commander would've used the Daedalus as a shield in front of the Orion until the Orion had destroyed the hives or was capable of jumping/raising his own shields, instead Colonel Caldwell sits on the sideline, knowing the Orion doesn't have shields when it fires, and watches the Orion get destroyed.

This alone shows that the writers are thinking of the audience are a bunch of stupid apes that will take anything they throw at them.

[PG15]

Why? Because the Orion is the more important ship of the two, since when it's completely repaired they would have a fully functional Ancient Warship.

And how exactly do we lowly humans "completely repair" it? The fact is, we needed it, and as presented in the episode, the ship was advanced, but badly damaged. What tactics would you have employed with something that can barely fire its weapons and maintain its shields?

The Daedalus on the other hand is a crappy human build ship,

...That disabled the second hive.

Knowing this a decent commander would've used the Daedalus as a shield in front of the Orion until the Orion had destroyed the hives or was capable of jumping/raising his own shields, instead Colonel Caldwell sits on the sideline, knowing the Orion doesn't have shields when it fires, and watches the Orion get destroyed.

That's utterly idiotic. You expect Zelenka and his team of science heads to fix up the Orion to do those things in a matter of minutes? Also, how exactly does the Deady act as a shield when the darts can simply go around it?

Oh, and we didn't know that the shield power would be gone after we fire the drones, that just happened due to the absolute crappiness of the ship.

This alone shows that the writers are thinking of the audience are a bunch of stupid apes that will take anything they throw at them.

It's not too far from the truth, if you ask me.

[Shep'sSocks]

Isn't the Deddy actually a human-built ship with Asgard tech?

[Pharaoh Atem]

good epsiode likes the interaction between rodney and ronon the Orion he hardly knew her wish Micheal could hang around more often

[Gregorius]

And how exactly do we lowly humans "completely repair" it?

With research and time.

The fact is, we needed it, and as presented in the episode, the ship was advanced, but badly damaged. What tactics would you have employed with something that can barely fire its weapons and maintain its shields?

Jump in, jump out and at least evasive manouvers since the engines were still working.

...That disabled the second hive.

Only because Michael helped them by giving them the cypher and suggesting to use the cannister containing the virus against the hive, otherwise the hive would've destroyed the Daedalus or the Daedalus would have to retreat from the battle severely damanged.

That's utterly idiotic. You expect Zelenka and his team of science heads to fix up the Orion to do those things in a matter of minutes? Also, how exactly does the Deady act as a shield when the darts can simply go around it?

They wouldn't have been in that position if they co-ordinated the attack properly, this is called battle tactics, had the Daedalus and Orion jumped in together or had the Daedalus piggybacked with the Orion through hyperspace. In either case the Daedalus would've been capable of immediately fire its missiles and defend the Orion should that be needed since the Orion wasn't in optima forma. The Daedalus would then move in front of the Orion to take the large part of the wraith barrage on the Orion while using its own railguns to lay down defencesive fire to take out as much darts as possible.

Another option that should've been explored was taking puddle jumpers, armed with drones, with them in the Daedalus. That way when the Daedalus, still serving the role mentioned in the previous part of my message, and Orion would jump in at the same time the puddlejumpers could launch, in their invisible mode, fly towards one of the hives and fire at it at the same time as the Orion fired its drones against the other hive. That way the wraith lose both their hives, or motherships, very early on in the battle and would allow the Orion, puddlejumpers and the Daedalus to shoot down the darts who's pilots would've probably been confused by the sudden destruction of both hives and the loss of their Queens.

Oh, and we didn't know that the shield power would be gone after we fire the drones, that just happened due to the absolute crappiness of the ship.

From the transcript:

CALDWELL: [on radio] Hey, Lorne. Now would be a good time to open fire!

SCENE: ORION - BRIDGE

[On the ORION there is smoke and sparks everywhere in the bridge.]

LORNE: Yes, sir. I was just thinking the same thing. I gave the order and nothing happened! Zelenka!

ZELENKA: I'm trying, do prdele!

LORNE: We're having a little difficulty transferring power from shields to weapons.

At this point the Daedalus should've already moved towards the Orion, since this is the moment Caldwell is informed that the Orion needs to lower its shields to fire, rendering it vunerable to wraith's hive ship's fire. The Orion should've kept its shields up until the Daedalus arrived and then fire their drones while being covered by the Daedalus, this way the change of the Orion's survival would've been far greater than what was displayed in the episode.

[PG15]

With research and time.

Time we did not have.

Jump in, jump out and at least evasive manouvers since the engines were still working.

It's just a gut feeling, I very much doubt that it can accomplish those sort of things in the shape it was in. Even if they can jump in and out of hyperspace, doesn't mean it can do that every few seconds.

Also, from the way it was shown, it didn't seemed to be very manuverable. Whether that's because our pilots were not skilled, or whether its built that way, or whether it's just broken...we have no clue. Either way, it was a big ship that can't manuver like a fighter, and definately won't be manuvering fast enough to avoid weapons fire from the hive (look at Allies, when the Deady was "manuvering", every wraith hit was accurate).

Only because Michael helped them by giving them the cypher and suggesting to use the cannister containing the virus against the hive, otherwise the hive would've destroyed the Daedalus or the Daedalus would have to retreat from the battle severely damanged.

I meant the nuke swarm and the firing-into-dartbay parts. that effectly disabled the second nuke.

They wouldn't have been in that position if they co-ordinated the attack properly, this is called battle tactics, had the Daedalus and Orion jumped in together or had the Orion piggybacked with the Orion through hyperspace.

Not being nitpicky on your mistake there, but eh?

In either case the Daedalus would've been capable of immediately fire its missiles and defend the Orion should that be needed since the Orion wasn't in optima forma. The Daedalus would then move in front of the Orion to take the large part of the wraith barrage on the Orion while using its own railguns to lay down defencesive fire to take out as much darts as possible.

Couldn't the darts fly behind the Orion? I mean sure, some of them would be taken care of by the Deady, but that won't stop a majority of them from just going around the Deady and start firing at the Orion from the backside. And if you haven't noticed, the Deady ain't very manuverable.

Another option that should've been explored was taking puddle jumpers, armed with drones, with them in the Daedalus. That way when the Daedalus, still serving the role mentioned in the previous part of my message, and Orion would jump in at the same time the puddlejumpers could launch, in their invisible mode, fly towards one of the hives and fire at it at the same time as the Orion fired its drones against the other hive. That way the wraith lose both their hives, or motherships, very early on in the battle and would allow the Orion, puddlejumpers and the Daedalus to shoot down the darts who's pilots would've probably been confused by the sudden destruction of both hives and the loss of their Queens.

Ah well, that's a plot hole with the whole series as far as I'm concerned, not only with this episode.

At this point the Daedalus should've already moved towards the Orion, since this is the moment Caldwell is informed that the Orion needs to lower its shields to fire, rendering it vunerable to wraith's hive ship's fire.

Even if they did, which they did after Orion fired its drones, they wouldn't have gotten there in time. Having rewatched that scene, the Deady wouldn't have gotten to the Orion before it was gravely damaged. Maybe it wouldn't have exploded outright, but no way would anything be working on it after the barrage of Wraith weapons fire.

The Orion should've kept its shields up until the Daedalus arrived and then fire their drones while being covered by the Daedalus, this way the change of the Orion's survival would've been far greater than what was displayed in the episode.

Again, the Deady was very far away from the Orion at the time, so it would've been best to fire the drones as soon as possible before it gets disabled by the hive.

Oh yeah, and rereading the transcipt, it looks like there was some tactics involved in having the Deady exit hyperspace first, so that it can disable the hives, which could then be destroyed by the Orion, or something like that.

I'm not gonna pretend things couldn't've gone better, but it was not completely wasted given that

1. The Orion was in very bad shape and

2. We had a time limit.

[Gregorius]

Time we did not have.

We had time, until Weir decided to screw it up with Michael, but that's besides the pont.

It's just a gut feeling, I very much doubt that it can accomplish those sort of things in the shape it was in. [...] . Either way, it was a big ship that can't manuver like a fighter, and definately won't be manuvering fast enough to avoid weapons fire from the hive (look at Allies, when the Deady was "manuvering", every wraith hit was accurate).

The Daedalus was manouvering? They were flying a predicatable curved line and you're right about the fighter part, but still a big ship should've been capable of trying to avoid a few hits.

Not being nitpicky on your mistake there, but eh?

I corrected it.

[qupte]Couldn't the darts fly behind the Orion? I mean sure, some of them would be taken care of by the Deady, but that won't stop a majority of them from just going around the Deady and start firing at the Orion from the backside. And if you haven't noticed, the Deady ain't very manuverable.[/quote]

They could've, but the F302 should've also be launched to attack the darts, and from what I gather from the battle the main damage was done by the hive.

Ah well, that's a plot hole with the whole series as far as I'm concerned, not only with this episode.

I think you agree with me when I say it's a serious plothole which should be addressed asap (unless it's a decision from the incompetent leaders of Atlantis).

Even if they did, which they did after Orion fired its drones, they wouldn't have gotten there in time. Having rewatched that scene, the Deady wouldn't have gotten to the Orion before it was gravely damaged. Maybe it wouldn't have exploded outright, but no way would anything be working on it after the barrage of Wraith weapons fire.

Orion shouldn't have lowered its shields until the Daedalus arrived, it's a bad call on Caldwell's part. And even a barely working Ancient warship can be repaired and it would still be a great thing to use during negotiations with, lets say, the Genii.

Again, the Deady was very far away from the Orion at the time, so it would've been best to fire the drones as soon as possible before it gets disabled by the hive.

Another mistake, they should've jumped next to each other so they could work as each other's "wingman".

Oh yeah, and rereading the transcipt, it looks like there was some tactics involved in having the Deady exit hyperspace first, so that it can disable the hives, which could then be destroyed by the Orion, or something like that.

Again a bad call by Caldwell, since we know the Daedalus is an utterly piece of crap against Wraith hives, there is no way that the Daedalus after being beaten numerous times, and it's damaged as well, to disable two fully functional hives. Add to that that the Orion was barely functional, so relying on it was also a bad call.

I'm not gonna pretend things couldn't've gone better, but it was not completely wasted given that
1. The Orion was in very bad shape and
2. We had a time limit.

1. True, I agree with that totally.
2. True.
But you have to admit that there are considerable plotholes and error in tactics and judgment you don't expect in an expedition that's supposedly led by the best of the best.

I think the people in Atlantis should read the "Evil overlord list" and search the thing about the 5 y/o and planning.

[PG15]

The Daedalus was manouvering? They were flying a predicatable curved line and you're right about the fighter part, but still a big ship should've been capable of trying to avoid a few hits.

You'll be surprised. I agree they might've been able to manuver better, but given the firing rate of the hives...I wouldn't be so sure about avoiding those blue blobs of doom.

They could've, but the F302 should've also be launched to attack the darts, and from what I gather from the battle the main damage was done by the hive.

I don't think we have enough 302s for all those darts. And remember, once the shield on the Orion was down, it was open season. The darts could even kamikaze the Orion to prevent it from slicing up the other hive, and don't tell me that wouldn't have done significant damage.

I think you agree with me when I say it's a serious plothole which should be addressed asap (unless it's a decision from the incompetent leaders of Atlantis).

Yep, but I'm not that bother about it to be honest. I mean there could be a lot of reasons. i.e. they don't want to loose the jumpers if the Deady went boom (no hyperdrive on those babies, afterall), or maybe the number of drones won't be sufficient, I don't know.

Orion shouldn't have lowered its shields until the Daedalus arrived, it's a bad call on Caldwell's part. And even a barely working Ancient warship can be repaired and it would still be a great thing to use during negotiations with, lets say, the Genii.

Well, it's not gonna even be "barely working", it will literally be full of holes, and given that most of the systems weren't working already...

It's like a Lamborghini, but crushed into a cube.

Another mistake, they should've jumped next to each other so they could work as each other's "wingman".

You have a point there, but I think it might provide too easy a target for the Wraith. I mean, instead of 2 ships to fire on, they can just target their general area and hit both of them at once.

Again a bad call by Caldwell, since we know the Daedalus is an utterly piece of crap against Wraith hives, there is no way that the Daedalus after being beaten numerous times, and it's damaged as well, to disable two fully functional hives. Add to that that the Orion was barely functional, so relying on it was also a bad call.

Again, the Deady was able to disable one of the hives. Sure, it was crap most of the time, but it has the potential [/afternoon school special].

And what were they going to do if they didn't use the Orion? Just send the Deady by itself?

But you have to admit that there are considerable plotholes and error in tactics and judgment you don't expect in an expedition that's supposedly led by the best of the best.

I'll admit there were some things they could've done better, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt given that it's hard to make really quick (and sound) decisions in the heat of battle. Even if they're the best, they're still human.

I think the people in Atlantis should read the "Evil overlord list" and search the thing about the 5 y/o and planning.

[Gregorius]

You'll be surprised. I agree they might've been able to manuver better, but given the firing rate of the hives...I wouldn't be so sure about avoiding those blue blobs of doom.

You can't evade them all, but you can evade a large portion if you use a manouver that's unpredicatable.

I don't think we have enough 302s for all those darts. And remember, once the shield on the Orion was down, it was open season. The darts could even kamikaze the Orion to prevent it from slicing up the other hive, and don't tell me that wouldn't have done significant damage.

You don't need that much 302's, just enough to protect the vital portions until the hives were dead, after that it would be a turkey shoot. As for the Kamikaze, I think two or three 302's could intercept those.

Yep, but I'm not that bother about it to be honest. I mean there could be a lot of reasons. i.e. they don't want to loose the jumpers if the Deady went boom (no hyperdrive on those babies, afterall), or maybe the number of drones won't be sufficient, I don't know.

Hyperdrive? They'd call the Asgard Taxi Service and for an attack like this I'd used the jumper, because their invisibility is a very handy tool in battle to surprise the enemy.

Well, it's not gonna even be "barely working", it will literally be full of holes, and given that most of the systems weren't working already...

But it's repairable given time, the Daedalus or an Asgard ship might've even "towed" it back to a base in the Milkyway where it could've been repaired and fit with an Asgard Hyperdrive.

You have a point there, but I think it might provide too easy a target for the Wraith. I mean, instead of 2 ships to fire on, they can just target their general area and hit both of them at once.

Indeed! That way the Daedalus can take the fire while the Orion would destroy the hives.

And what were they going to do if they didn't use the Orion? Just send the Deady by itself?

Get the Asgard and the other allies in the milkyway involved, they have as much to lose as Earth has.

I'll admit there were some things they could've done better, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt given that it's hard to make really quick (and sound) decisions in the heat of battle. Even if they're the best, they're still human.

They're supposed to be the best for a reason and had these mistakes been minor I wouldn't have fallen of them, but these mistake are of epic proportions. They are mistakes first years students in West Point wouldn't even make, and that's what's annoying me.

[PG15]

You can't evade them all, but you can evade a large portion if you use a manouver that's unpredicatable.

Look at how large ships in Stargate manuvers, does it look like they can do it unpredictably? Not in my eyes. That's how big ships move.

You don't need that much 302's, just enough to protect the vital portions until the hives were dead, after that it would be a turkey shoot. As for the Kamikaze, I think two or three 302's could intercept those.

All of them? There are literally hundreds of darts out there.

And once they see that a single shot can blow up a hive, they'll make sure the Orion won't be able to do that a second time. i.e., kamikaze en mass.

Hyperdrive? They'd call the Asgard Taxi Service and for an attack like this I'd used the jumper, because their invisibility is a very handy tool in battle to surprise the enemy.

Well, for dramatic reasons I think it'll be kinda a cop out to call the Asgard everytime something bad happens.

But it's repairable given time, the Daedalus or an Asgard ship might've even "towed" it back to a base in the Milkyway where it could've been repaired and fit with an Asgard Hyperdrive.

It took us around a month to "repair" it up to the crap state it was in in NML. How much time do you think we have? There are such things as irrepairable damage.

If I give you a hunk of metal, can you repair it and make me a tank? Also, where are they going to get the material? etc. etc.

Indeed! That way the Daedalus can take the fire while the Orion would destroy the hives.

Or the hives will just target the Orion.

Get the Asgard and the other allies in the milkyway involved, they have as much to lose as Earth has.

Well, only the Asgard can travel such distances, and like I said above, it's sort of a cop out.

Some times even common sense stands in the way of drama.

They're supposed to be the best for a reason and had these mistakes been minor I wouldn't have fallen of them, but these mistake are of epic proportions. They are mistakes first years students in West Point wouldn't even make, and that's what's annoying me.

Ok, let's get something straight here. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY on Earth will ever be prepared for this sort of stuff, ie. fighting kilometer-size ships in space with energy weapons and darts swarming ya.

[waykins]

A goodish episode to start off a season however I'm wanting to know how far out of the galaxy would you need to be to see it from the persepective of the Deadulus and the Hive Ship?

[ste]

i thought it was sweet, sucks orion was blown up but it was cool 2c how easily drones can destroy a hive

[Descent]

Basically the wrap up I expected but it was still very entertaining, specially McKay worrying about how they were going to die.

Too bad about the Orion though, that was my one problem with it. Oh well, we'll find another one.

[Steven_the_Atlantean]

This was such an Fantastic episode, Teyla in control, Stargate SG1 and Stargate Atlantis crossover, finally seeing the wraith made it outside the Pegasus Galaxy, The Daedalus in action fought like never, I am pretty disappointment that the Orion has been destroyed, if only it escaped as soon as it destroyed one hive ship, but it took on too much damage. Ah well. At least we still have the bestest ship in all galaxies’….. Atlantis . …..I think

[The Signal]

Not a fan of this one, the whole thing felt like they didnt really know what was going on, so they just drifted through a story hoping it would work. It didnt. However, on the brghter side, the action scenes were very well done and the dialogue was much crisper than SG1's opener.

6/10