Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Southern Red]

Yay for Anuna!!! You go girl!!



No, don't stop! I don't have time for anything in depth at the moment, but I'm loving your reviews with pics. Good stuff.

And now it's time for Sparky urban legend #2. (I'm pretty sure JF was the one who told this one.) When John grabs Elizabeth's hand, it wasn't scripted. Joe was afraid Torri was so cold she couldn't move so he grabbed her hand to help her along. Just one more example of how well they worked together.

I remember hearing that too. Also on the commentary they were teasing JF because he was complaining about being cold and wet and he was only in the rain a fraction of the time the others were.

I don't think they stick to the script much. Maybe in the first year of filming but as the show progresses, i think the actors say their lines and add extra stuff jsut to make it sound or look better. In season 4 Of SG-1 the Window of Opp episode was almsot completly improv by RDA and CJ. The Hug between Sam and Vala in The Road Not Taken wasn't scripted.

I think as the show gets older the more daring the actors come to adding their own thing.

And they get more comfortable with each other and their characters. The time in Return 1 when Ronon hugged John wasn't scripted either. They loved Joe's reaction, so they left it in.

And congratulations Ice Wolf on 1000 posts!

[atlantis_babe34]

Yeah it's also that their relationships with eachother come through within the characters so its good to see that i think anyway

[sofie]

Congrats Ice on 1000th!!!!

I'm babysitting 6 11-year olds this afternoon lol I think it's time they got introduces to Sparky *grins*

[justhere1971]

Congrats Ice on 1000th!!!!

I'm babysitting 6 11-year olds this afternoon lol I think it's time they got introduces to Sparky *grins*

Ooooh Sofie, perfect opportunity to teach them about good communication, leadership, friendship and just love.

[sofie]

Ooooh Sofie, perfect opportunity to teach them about good communication, leadership, friendship and just love.

*nods*
I'm just doubting which one to show. I'm thinking 'echoes' or 'TLG'. I only have time for one, so can't watch 'the storm'/'the eye' (too bad cause they would've LOVED that one)

[justhere1971]

*nods*
I'm just doubting which one to show. I'm thinking 'echoes' or 'TLG'. I only have time for one, so can't watch 'the storm'/'the eye' (too bad cause they would've LOVED that one)

I vote for TLG. It has the kiss obviously, but we also get to see Action!Liz, whumped John and just awesome end scene. Have a lot of fun.

[Eri13]

No, don't stop! I don't have time for anything in depth at the moment, but I'm loving your reviews with pics. Good stuff.

And now it's time for Sparky urban legend #2. (I'm pretty sure JF was the one who told this one.) When John grabs Elizabeth's hand, it wasn't scripted. Joe was afraid Torri was so cold she couldn't move so he grabbed her hand to help her along. Just one more example of how well they worked together.

Okay, thanks! I'll probably have to lay off a new eppy today, though--I spent too much work time downloading pics yesterday. But I think "The Eye" has enough fun to spend another day on.

If that UL is true, HOW SWEET!! I'd completely believe it, and it makes the overall story of The Eye even better.

I'm betting Torri's tone and mannerisms in Inferno were unscripted or at least not what the writers had envisaged. That whole scene might have been unscripted considering all the flirting. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the Sheppard/Weir scenes involved some adlibbing and playing around with after the scripted version had been filmed. A lot of the moments I think have more to do with the actors, directors and editors than with the writers. i.e. the people who see what works as opposed to those who generally write what they want to work. That's what I love about this ship its all the little things. It's how the lines are said, how the scenes are edited more than what is said. Also that so many of the moments are just them by themselves playing off each other. They could probably have a whole episode just with them playing off each other and it would work.

So many people question exactly what makes an episode work. Yes, script writers put down all the lines, but where the actors come in is in the little things--that's why I respect Torri so much. The actual delivery of a line--as in the Weir and John exchange: "Are you alright?" "No"--was completely on Joe and Torri. It was Joe who opted to play that as kinda boyish, kinda bashful, very concerned, a bit guilty. He could have been more stalwart; he could have still be brusque. She could have whined "No", she could have almost cried, she could have looked at him wide-eyed and angry. She opted for understated, a little scared. It's all about what they choose to do. Torri gave Weir her complexity, and that's why I sport my sig.

WOW my 1000th post. Jor wants to have a costume party but can't decide between his Devil costume, System Lord costume or Pirate costume.

CONGRATS!!! *waves flag*

*nods*
I'm just doubting which one to show. I'm thinking 'echoes' or 'TLG'. I only have time for one, so can't watch 'the storm'/'the eye' (too bad cause they would've LOVED that one)

I have to vote for Echoes, because it's probably my #3 after The Eye and The Storm. I like it because it has an awesome blend of humor, and ultimate Sparky moment, cool special effects, and Zelenka saying "pigeons". XDDDD

Okay, so...:

I am curious, and have a few questions for fun today (I feel like I'm an English teacher all of a sudden ):

1) What do you think John was thinking, in a realistic sense, when Kolya said she was dead?

2) What was Kolya's strategy in telling John he'd killed Weir?

3) Why did Rodney step in front of the gun?

4) What was Elizabeth thinking when she saw John stalking up the ramp? I mentioned yesterday I was really curious.

5) What do you think Ford, Teyla and Carson thought about all of it?

[Anuna]

I wote Echoes too because it's IMO much better episode than TLG, but if I could choose then I'd say show them Intruder or Duet (OMG. Duet is HIGH larious, and it has Sparky all over each other pushing into personal space).


The Storm/The Eye. I missed out the entire convo from last two days and I'm happy it's not too late to drop in my two pennies, kunas (that's croatian money, kuna), whatever.

I remember watching it for the first time and being drawn in, thinking OMG awesome, awesome, AWESOME! I loved John in this one - desperate, dangerous, lethal. When Kolya lied to him Elizabeth was dead I was glued to the screen and started the next episode while holding my breath. I loved this new side of John and hoped we'll get to see this dangerous guy more often. It was like he was set to kill, and he was doing it without mercy, because when he heard Elizabeth was dead, something probably snapped in half inside of him. Whatever the feeling, or combination of feelings it was driving him on his mad crusade of killing the Genii off.

And then he learned she was still alive. *gasp* I love, love, love his reaction. After he learned she was alive there was a completely new force behind his actions - saving her life (okay, their lives - McKay was there too). But it strikes me that he didn't even ask about McKay. of course he wasn't told McKay was dead, but still.

The final scenes - especially the one when John is about to shoot at Kolya - his eyes cold, calm, determined - are awesome. There's a half pleading look in Elizabeth's face, I would bet she was scared by both men there, both John and Kolya, because either one of them could bring her death. It must have been scary to learn that her salvation was as cruel and merciless as her captor... I need to write more fics I think.

[SMB_BOOKS]

I am curious, and have a few questions for fun today (I feel like I'm an English teacher all of a sudden ):

1) What do you think John was thinking, in a realistic sense, when Kolya said she was dead?

2) What was Kolya's strategy in telling John he'd killed Weir?

3) Why did Rodney step in front of the gun?

4) What was Elizabeth thinking when she saw John stalking up the ramp? I mentioned yesterday I was really curious.

5) What do you think Ford, Teyla and Carson thought about all of it?

First - I love all the episode discussion stuff. Sparky is my OTP, but many times I have a hard time expressing why as eloquently or as descriptively as others on the thread do, especially you, Eri13. SO, it simply makes my Sparky heart content to read what others write and nod enthusiastically and say "Yes!" to my monitor. Of course, that doesn't help too much with the online discussion, does it? LOL.....

Okay, on to the questions....


1) What do you think John was thinking, in a realistic sense, when Kolya said she was dead?
I think part of him went back to Afghanistan. Once again, he was living through the hell of not being able to protect or rescue someone he was responsible for. Of course, IMO it's more personal than that with Elizabeth. Still, I think John hearing Elizabeth was dead hit very close to home with him and opened up some very painful wounds. I also think he hit the rage stage immediately. Something snapped within him and at that moment, all he could think of was how much he was going to make Koyla pay in a very painful, prolonged and nasty way.

2) What was Kolya's strategy in telling John he'd killed Weir?
To put John off balance. To make John realize he meant business. I think Koyla thought if John believed Koyla had killed a woman (who was also the leader of the entire expedition) that John would reconsider his plan to sabatoge Koyla's plan. Koyla assumed his actions would make John think he was a serious competitor who had no remorse about hurting whoever he needed to in order to obtain his objective. I think it was a show of force to assert himself as alpha male and make John back down. HOW WRONG KOYLA WAS!

3) Why did Rodney step in front of the gun?
Because Rodney, despite all of his whining, *****ing and love of hearing himself talk about how much of a genius he is, really does care about his friends. He wanted to protect Elizabeth. He wanted to diffuse the situation. Rodney doesn't like conflict. Most of the time, he's able to just diffuse the situation by having someone else on the team take care of the big bad threat while he finds the technological solution to the problem, but this time it was just him and Elizabeth. I don't think he thought about it, he just reacted and did it.

4) What was Elizabeth thinking when she saw John stalking up the ramp? I mentioned yesterday I was really curious.
"Oh thank God". Seriously, I think she was filled with an all encompassing sense of relief. She knew she wasn't out of danger yet, but she also knew John was there. She could see him, could see his eyes. This is the first time (since she had been captured) that she has physically seen him. She knew he meant business, knew what he'd done to Koyla's men when he thought she had been killed and knew there was no way he was going to lose her if he could do anything to stop it. You can see it in her eyes during the standoff. She was pleading with him to save her, all with a look. I do think she was scared John might get hurt in the process and knew he had a near impossible shot to pull off.

5) What do you think Ford, Teyla and Carson thought about all of it?
Truthfully? I'm not sure any of them would make the connection, at least not immediately. Maybe afterwards, when they had time to reflect on it, they might realize how deeply John must have cared for Elizabeth to go on such a rampage when he had thought she was dead. I also think they realized, just as we all did, that there were things about John Shepherd that might be scary in the dark. Depth of character and all.....

[Southern Red]

First - I love all the episode discussion stuff. Sparky is my OTP, but many times I have a hard time expressing why as eloquently or as descriptively as others on the thread do, especially you, Eri13. SO, it simply makes my Sparky heart content to read what others write and nod enthusiastically and say "Yes!" to my monitor. Of course, that doesn't help too much with the online discussion, does it? LOL.....

Okay, on to the questions....


1) What do you think John was thinking, in a realistic sense, when Kolya said she was dead?
I think part of him went back to Afghanistan. Once again, he was living through the hell of not being able to protect or rescue someone he was responsible for. Of course, IMO it's more personal than that with Elizabeth. Still, I think John hearing Elizabeth was dead hit very close to home with him and opened up some very painful wounds. I also think he hit the rage stage immediately. Something snapped within him and at that moment, all he could think of was how much he was going to make Koyla pay in a very painful, prolonged and nasty way.

2) What was Kolya's strategy in telling John he'd killed Weir?
To put John off balance. To make John realize he meant business. I think Koyla thought if John believed Koyla had killed a woman (who was also the leader of the entire expedition) that John would reconsider his plan to sabatoge Koyla's plan. Koyla assumed his actions would make John think he was a serious competitor who had no remorse about hurting whoever he needed to in order to obtain his objective. I think it was a show of force to assert himself as alpha male and make John back down. HOW WRONG KOYLA WAS!

3) Why did Rodney step in front of the gun?
Because Rodney, despite all of his whining, *****ing and love of hearing himself talk about how much of a genius he is, really does care about his friends. He wanted to protect Elizabeth. He wanted to diffuse the situation. Rodney doesn't like conflict. Most of the time, he's able to just diffuse the situation by having someone else on the team take care of the big bad threat while he finds the technological solution to the problem, but this time it was just him and Elizabeth. I don't think he thought about it, he just reacted and did it.

4) What was Elizabeth thinking when she saw John stalking up the ramp? I mentioned yesterday I was really curious.
"Oh thank God". Seriously, I think she was filled with an all encompassing sense of relief. She knew she wasn't out of danger yet, but she also knew John was there. She could see him, could see his eyes. This is the first time (since she had been captured) that she has physically seen him. She knew he meant business, knew what he'd done to Koyla's men when he thought she had been killed and knew there was no way he was going to lose her if he could do anything to stop it. You can see it in her eyes during the standoff. She was pleading with him to save her, all with a look. I do think she was scared John might get hurt in the process and knew he had a near impossible shot to pull off.

5) What do you think Ford, Teyla and Carson thought about all of it?
Truthfully? I'm not sure any of them would make the connection, at least not immediately. Maybe afterwards, when they had time to reflect on it, they might realize how deeply John must have cared for Elizabeth to go on such a rampage when he had thought she was dead. I also think they realized, just as we all did, that there were things about John Shepherd that might be scary in the dark. Depth of character and all.....

*nods enthusiastically and says YES*

I think Ford was aware of what John was capable of. One of my favorite lines was his "he'll be the one dot getting rid of all the other dots". I wonder how he knew. I'd like to imagine John telling him about some of his experiences, but it seems unlikely unless Ford asked directly. I also remember Ford telling Sumner that he has noticed his problem with Sheppard. Sumner says he doesn't like that he doesn't follow the chain of command and Ford just says "yes Sir" and lets it go. I think John proved himself to Ford and won his trust and admiration. It's sad now that John doesn't have anyone to hero worship him.

[Scary Kitty]

We ship them because they act naturally with each other, and they act naturally because it wasn't scripted it was just helping out a friend. Although if it was scripted it probably would have worked anyway because TH and JF have great on screen chemistry and seem to let their characters have a life of their own. Its the reason the tension the ptb were going for in the 1st season didn't work because it wasn't what the characters were like particularly as Weir was meant to be an expert at diffusing tense situations lol.

Yeah, that absolutely slayed me. Here's TPTB, trying to go for a "civilians vs. military" thing in Season 1, but it totally falls flat on its face, because:

1) they're cut off from Earth and have to put aside their differences if they're going to survive

2) Weir may have been known for her anti-military stance prior to her appointment as leader of Stargate Command in SG-1, but she is also a diplomat. Which means that she's used to working out compromises; it's her job, for pity's sake!

Which is why putting in Woolsey as expedition commander in Season 5 is actually a good move when it comes to creating an "us vs. them" conflict. Carter was too much of an insider, and therefore regarded as "safe" by Atlantis; they won't have such a safety net with Woolsey, who has a proven track record of mucking things up for Our Heroes.

I'm betting Torri's tone and mannerisms in Inferno were unscripted or at least not what the writers had envisaged. That whole scene might have been unscripted considering all the flirting. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the Sheppard/Weir scenes involved some adlibbing and playing around with after the scripted version had been filmed. A lot of the moments I think have more to do with the actors, directors and editors than with the writers. i.e. the people who see what works as opposed to those who generally write what they want to work. That's what I love about this ship its all the little things. It's how the lines are said, how the scenes are edited more than what is said. Also that so many of the moments are just them by themselves playing off each other. They could probably have a whole episode just with them playing off each other and it would work.

Well said! And I would love to have seen an episode with just Sheppard and Weir... perhaps they're off-world with Elizabeth negotiating a treaty or something, and she and John get cut off from the others. I've read a few fics with that premise.

WOW my 1000th post. Jor wants to have a costume party but can't decide between his Devil costume, System Lord costume or Pirate costume.

Whoo Hoo! Congratulations on Post 1000!

May I suggest the Devil or Pirate costume, since we see the System Lord costume more often in the sig banner?

I remember hearing that too. Also on the commentary they were teasing JF because he was complaining about being cold and wet and he was only in the rain a fraction of the time the others were.

Which I find very funny, since JF is a surfer and the water off the Southern California coast is not that warm, even in the summer!

First - I love all the episode discussion stuff. Sparky is my OTP, but many times I have a hard time expressing why as eloquently or as descriptively as others on the thread do, especially you, Eri13. SO, it simply makes my Sparky heart content to read what others write and nod enthusiastically and say "Yes!" to my monitor. Of course, that doesn't help too much with the online discussion, does it? LOL.....

Okay, on to the questions....


1) What do you think John was thinking, in a realistic sense, when Kolya said she was dead?
I think part of him went back to Afghanistan. Once again, he was living through the hell of not being able to protect or rescue someone he was responsible for. Of course, IMO it's more personal than that with Elizabeth. Still, I think John hearing Elizabeth was dead hit very close to home with him and opened up some very painful wounds. I also think he hit the rage stage immediately. Something snapped within him and at that moment, all he could think of was how much he was going to make Koyla pay in a very painful, prolonged and nasty way.

2) What was Kolya's strategy in telling John he'd killed Weir?
To put John off balance. To make John realize he meant business. I think Koyla thought if John believed Koyla had killed a woman (who was also the leader of the entire expedition) that John would reconsider his plan to sabatoge Koyla's plan. Koyla assumed his actions would make John think he was a serious competitor who had no remorse about hurting whoever he needed to in order to obtain his objective. I think it was a show of force to assert himself as alpha male and make John back down. HOW WRONG KOYLA WAS!

3) Why did Rodney step in front of the gun?
Because Rodney, despite all of his whining, *****ing and love of hearing himself talk about how much of a genius he is, really does care about his friends. He wanted to protect Elizabeth. He wanted to diffuse the situation. Rodney doesn't like conflict. Most of the time, he's able to just diffuse the situation by having someone else on the team take care of the big bad threat while he finds the technological solution to the problem, but this time it was just him and Elizabeth. I don't think he thought about it, he just reacted and did it.

4) What was Elizabeth thinking when she saw John stalking up the ramp? I mentioned yesterday I was really curious.
"Oh thank God". Seriously, I think she was filled with an all encompassing sense of relief. She knew she wasn't out of danger yet, but she also knew John was there. She could see him, could see his eyes. This is the first time (since she had been captured) that she has physically seen him. She knew he meant business, knew what he'd done to Koyla's men when he thought she had been killed and knew there was no way he was going to lose her if he could do anything to stop it. You can see it in her eyes during the standoff. She was pleading with him to save her, all with a look. I do think she was scared John might get hurt in the process and knew he had a near impossible shot to pull off.

5) What do you think Ford, Teyla and Carson thought about all of it?
Truthfully? I'm not sure any of them would make the connection, at least not immediately. Maybe afterwards, when they had time to reflect on it, they might realize how deeply John must have cared for Elizabeth to go on such a rampage when he had thought she was dead. I also think they realized, just as we all did, that there were things about John Shepherd that might be scary in the dark. Depth of character and all.....

Very good answers! You've pretty much summed up how I would answer them! Green coming your way!

*nods enthusiastically and says YES*

I think Ford was aware of what John was capable of. One of my favorite lines was his "he'll be the one dot getting rid of all the other dots". I wonder how he knew. I'd like to imagine John telling him about some of his experiences, but it seems unlikely unless Ford asked directly. I also remember Ford telling Sumner that he has noticed his problem with Sheppard. Sumner says he doesn't like that he doesn't follow the chain of command and Ford just says "yes Sir" and lets it go. I think John proved himself to Ford and won his trust and admiration. It's sad now that John doesn't have anyone to hero worship him.

That's a good point about Ford. Ford, out of all the other main characters present, was the only one besides Sheppard with an organized military background. Granted, Ford was about 10 years younger than Sheppard, and they're in different branches of the service (Ford's in the Marine Corps, Sheppard's in the Air Force), so obviously their training is somewhat different and they wouldn't have had the same combat experiences. But Ford, being a military man himself, "gets it" on a level that the others will not understand, simply because they are not in the military themselves. Green coming your way, too!

[Torri012]

*jumps in*

detonates a link to 3 sparky wallpapers and...

*jumps out again*

[nogigglingmajor]

I'm betting Torri's tone and mannerisms in Inferno were unscripted or at least not what the writers had envisaged. That whole scene might have been unscripted considering all the flirting. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the Sheppard/Weir scenes involved some adlibbing and playing around with after the scripted version had been filmed. A lot of the moments I think have more to do with the actors, directors and editors than with the writers. i.e. the people who see what works as opposed to those who generally write what they want to work. That's what I love about this ship its all the little things. It's how the lines are said, how the scenes are edited more than what is said. Also that so many of the moments are just them by themselves playing off each other. They could probably have a whole episode just with them playing off each other and it would work.

WOW my 1000th post. Jor wants to have a costume party but can't decide between his Devil costume, System Lord costume or Pirate costume.

Quiet true! remember that SJ wasn't scripted either. it was something the actors created and the producers saw the potential and THEN decided to write it in.

Okay, thanks! I'll probably have to lay off a new eppy today, though--I spent too much work time downloading pics yesterday. But I think "The Eye" has enough fun to spend another day on.

If that UL is true, HOW SWEET!! I'd completely believe it, and it makes the overall story of The Eye even better.



So many people question exactly what makes an episode work. Yes, script writers put down all the lines, but where the actors come in is in the little things--that's why I respect Torri so much. The actual delivery of a line--as in the Weir and John exchange: "Are you alright?" "No"--was completely on Joe and Torri. It was Joe who opted to play that as kinda boyish, kinda bashful, very concerned, a bit guilty. He could have been more stalwart; he could have still be brusque. She could have whined "No", she could have almost cried, she could have looked at him wide-eyed and angry. She opted for understated, a little scared. It's all about what they choose to do. Torri gave Weir her complexity, and that's why I sport my sig.



CONGRATS!!! *waves flag*



I have to vote for Echoes, because it's probably my #3 after The Eye and The Storm. I like it because it has an awesome blend of humor, and ultimate Sparky moment, cool special effects, and Zelenka saying "pigeons". XDDDD

Okay, so...:

I am curious, and have a few questions for fun today (I feel like I'm an English teacher all of a sudden ):

1) What do you think John was thinking, in a realistic sense, when Kolya said she was dead?

2) What was Kolya's strategy in telling John he'd killed Weir?

3) Why did Rodney step in front of the gun?

4) What was Elizabeth thinking when she saw John stalking up the ramp? I mentioned yesterday I was really curious.

5) What do you think Ford, Teyla and Carson thought about all of it?

WOW...that threw me straight back to yr10 essay class! *is scared*

[Eri13]

*nods enthusiastically and says YES*

I think Ford was aware of what John was capable of. One of my favorite lines was his "he'll be the one dot getting rid of all the other dots". I wonder how he knew. I'd like to imagine John telling him about some of his experiences, but it seems unlikely unless Ford asked directly. I also remember Ford telling Sumner that he has noticed his problem with Sheppard. Sumner says he doesn't like that he doesn't follow the chain of command and Ford just says "yes Sir" and lets it go. I think John proved himself to Ford and won his trust and admiration. It's sad now that John doesn't have anyone to hero worship him.

That's a great line. ITA with everything.

First - I love all the episode discussion stuff. Sparky is my OTP, but many times I have a hard time expressing why as eloquently or as descriptively as others on the thread do, especially you, Eri13. SO, it simply makes my Sparky heart content to read what others write and nod enthusiastically and say "Yes!" to my monitor. Of course, that doesn't help too much with the online discussion, does it? LOL.....

Okay, on to the questions....


1) What do you think John was thinking, in a realistic sense, when Kolya said she was dead?
I think part of him went back to Afghanistan. Once again, he was living through the hell of not being able to protect or rescue someone he was responsible for. Of course, IMO it's more personal than that with Elizabeth. Still, I think John hearing Elizabeth was dead hit very close to home with him and opened up some very painful wounds. I also think he hit the rage stage immediately. Something snapped within him and at that moment, all he could think of was how much he was going to make Koyla pay in a very painful, prolonged and nasty way.

2) What was Kolya's strategy in telling John he'd killed Weir?
To put John off balance. To make John realize he meant business. I think Koyla thought if John believed Koyla had killed a woman (who was also the leader of the entire expedition) that John would reconsider his plan to sabatoge Koyla's plan. Koyla assumed his actions would make John think he was a serious competitor who had no remorse about hurting whoever he needed to in order to obtain his objective. I think it was a show of force to assert himself as alpha male and make John back down. HOW WRONG KOYLA WAS!

3) Why did Rodney step in front of the gun?
Because Rodney, despite all of his whining, *****ing and love of hearing himself talk about how much of a genius he is, really does care about his friends. He wanted to protect Elizabeth. He wanted to diffuse the situation. Rodney doesn't like conflict. Most of the time, he's able to just diffuse the situation by having someone else on the team take care of the big bad threat while he finds the technological solution to the problem, but this time it was just him and Elizabeth. I don't think he thought about it, he just reacted and did it.

4) What was Elizabeth thinking when she saw John stalking up the ramp? I mentioned yesterday I was really curious.
"Oh thank God". Seriously, I think she was filled with an all encompassing sense of relief. She knew she wasn't out of danger yet, but she also knew John was there. She could see him, could see his eyes. This is the first time (since she had been captured) that she has physically seen him. She knew he meant business, knew what he'd done to Koyla's men when he thought she had been killed and knew there was no way he was going to lose her if he could do anything to stop it. You can see it in her eyes during the standoff. She was pleading with him to save her, all with a look. I do think she was scared John might get hurt in the process and knew he had a near impossible shot to pull off.

5) What do you think Ford, Teyla and Carson thought about all of it?
Truthfully? I'm not sure any of them would make the connection, at least not immediately. Maybe afterwards, when they had time to reflect on it, they might realize how deeply John must have cared for Elizabeth to go on such a rampage when he had thought she was dead. I also think they realized, just as we all did, that there were things about John Shepherd that might be scary in the dark. Depth of character and all.....

You're no longer allowed to argue that you're not as eloquent as anyone else. Your answers are awesome!

Here are mine...thanks for the awesome discussion today guys! I feel like going back and watching "The Eye" again!

1) What do you think John was thinking, in a realistic sense, when Kolya said she was dead?

I think he didn't believe Kolya would go that far, then had a fit of both rage and self-guilt for contributing to Weir's death. Everything else has had John doing a sort of 'shoot first, ask questions later' stance. This is the first time he had to try to negotiate, and, after Kolya tells him that she's dead, he believes he's failed. And that failure came at the expense of someone who not only relied on him and trusted him (allowing him to be her Military commander; putting him in charge of her teams) but also who he cared about--Elizabeth's attitude towards him being always friendly and casual, and her choices regarding him always being supportive--had led him to care about her, perhaps more than he knew (and not necessarily in the romantic sense yet). The combination of losing that, and being partially to blame for her death, was enough to send him on a rampage.

2) What was Kolya's strategy in telling John he'd killed Weir?

Kolya, for me, was the flip side of the negotiation. Where John didn't fathom Kolya would go so far, Kolya wanted to go that far. It is part of the battle. He had no sympathy. Knowing that John was bluffing--and, being angry that John had killed two of his men (Robert Davi actually wanted Kolya to have depth, which is why we get the later line asking about Eidos's son) Kolya decides to call it. With John being unable to affirm, Kolya figures that someone so young and naive will break quickly once he realizes he's responsible for the death of the leader. What Kolya underestimated was John's skill and his 'never leave anyone behind attitude'--that same attitude that also dictates you'll seek revenge for your friends.

3) Why did Rodney step in front of the gun?

He was being brave. As SMB_Books said above, I don't think Rodney thought about it. He just didn't want her to die. Rodney's in general a good person--his arrogance is about his own self-importance, arguing his own worth to himself. But that doesn't always mean he values his own life more than others. On occasion he's argued he's more important than some, but by the same token he does feel others are more important than he, and Weir was one of those. I also think it was a bit personal--after all, he was calling her Elizabeth by the second episode.

4) What was Elizabeth thinking when she saw John stalking up the ramp? I mentioned yesterday I was really curious.

Ooooo...this is hard for me to speculate, but think she was thinking "please, help me". I'm sure she was glad to see John, but I can't imagine she believed she was going to get out of that situation easily. That's why the effect of the shot stunned her so much. She probably expected a standoff, and if I try to place myself in her shoes I'd be terrified that Kolya was going to do something desperate--but more or less believing there was nothing John could do, and I was going to be taken into the wormhole. When he started speaking, however, there's something of a flash in Torri's eyes, and I don't wonder if she was perhaps trying to convey a sense of encouragement: Shoot. please shoot. But even trying to read deeply into it, I don't pick up on much--I just get the sense she's really, really scared.

5) What do you think Ford, Teyla and Carson thought about all of it?
I think Teyla was surprised. John's been kinda casual in everything he's done, even with the "38 Minutes" episode--so jovial and joking. Here, he's the total opposite. I love when she argues with him and he replies "and I intend you to fight with us. Now do this." She can't argue with him, there isn't discussion there. Ford, I don't think, was surprised--I think he was waiting for that side to come out. You're right, SR, I think he sorta had assessed John and probably new this was a part of him. As for Carson--poor guy. He couldn't get a break. But he probably took a whole new look on the Atlantis family. I might be mistaken, but I think this is sorta the last time we see cowardly Carson, right? Perhaps this experience changed him for good.

[Torri012]

is this a new game here or just a discussion about all the things we do not know?

oh yeah game...does someone know where we stopped with the 100 wrong places to do it game?