Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Bama]

Spoiler:

Another interesting point that I pointed out before was when John and Caldwell mentioned most of the things that Phoebus did while in Elizabeth's body she made an "OMG, that wasn't me! Don't believe her" outburst. That is, until they brought up the kiss. She was almost completely silent.

XCELLENT POINT X! She had just hastened to reassure Caldwell that she wasn't really 'her'-why not do the same with Shep? Why did he too look uncomfortable? As I said in a post a few pages back, why not make it into a 'funny' and laugh it off together or address it to place it at rest? Only one obvious answer....because it signified something that is real in a deeper sense to them-that 'something' that both feel is inappropriate between them but exists nonetheless.

[FoolishPleasure]

Ahhhh...yes, FP...let's 'talk' of the 'red herring'. It's like they can't quite bring themselves to let go of the rope quite yet because now they've decided that the hint of something other than the obvious logical path they've brought us down brings dada! More Drama!! TPB: Now...watch closely audience...Whoops, is it *this way* or *that way*? LOL! *sporks tptb and trashes the illogical little 'game' they want us to buy into* And NOPE, like you, I refuse to buy the fool's gold they want me to buy. You throw out *everything* AU in the past and in this ep and just look at the real stuff and it all adds up to one sum: S+W=yes

TPTB are going to have to call "something" in season 3. Fans are already revolting on Sheppard's kirking behavior, and grumblings are getting louder on the "triangle" ships they are toying with. If they keep on this path fans are going to give up. They can't treat us as if we are juvenile idiots and write a science fiction show like an afternoon soap opera.

[Luz]

Spoiler:

I agree with both points. If Thalan didn't have such a track record for lying through out this episode, I might have believed him. That and if the scene played out differently.

Another interesting point that I pointed out before was when John and Caldwell mentioned most of the things that Phoebus did while in Elizabeth's body she made an "OMG, that wasn't me! Don't believe her" outburst. That is, until they brought up the kiss. She was almost completely silent.

TLG

Spoiler:

Yes, and yes. The first time i watched the episode i believed it had been Sheppard who had said it. But it didn't make much difference IMO, so he cares, so tell me something i don't know, obviously it was a line put there by tptb so that Sheyla's could do what all shippers do best: make a huge deal out of nothing, lol. But after watching TLG over, and over again, i'm not so sure now. I'm beginning to think it wasn't him, the guy lied through his teeth trying to convince Ronon and then Teyla that he was John, off course he would get really desperate and bring out the big guns when he felt Teyla was going to shoot him. Desperate times call for desperate measures, it's a wonder he didn't try and say i lurve you, lol. Maybe 'cause he knew Teyla is already spoken for? .

[Melyanna]

And it took some digging, but I found the notes I'd made on the episode back in early January. My opinion of it hasn't changed, but I feel like stating it again.

Spoiler:

This episode was so very, very Sparky, from beginning to end. The long eye contact, John's unwavering concern for Elizabeth when she was first possessed, the fact that he actually agreed to take on Thalan, the snarky remarks from everyone else about married couples and John and Elizabeth playacting, the "hopeless romantic" exchange, the infirmary scene at the end – terrific stuff. The whole concept of the episode just reinforced Shep/Weir.

The episode was about reforging the relationships that have been so strained this season. Rodney and the military, Ronon and Weir (these two to lesser extents), Teyla and Sheppard, Weir and Caldwell. John and Elizabeth's relationship is the only one that's been really healthy all season, so it's a great storytelling device to take them and their relationship out of the equation to force everyone else in the city to just get over it and band together.

That's what, in my opinion, makes the episode such a strong Shep/Weir story. When their relationship is broken, things stop working. They're still holding the city together between the two of them, maybe even more than they did last season. So the city comes out the stronger for it, and John and Elizabeth have taken that first step toward something more, even if they weren't really in control for that kiss.

Things really haven't been the same between Teyla and Sheppard since Conversion, and I think this will help them get over what happened then. There's still an issue of trust, but hopefully that will erode as time goes by. They're better off as friends, and I think they both know that.

The line about caring for her actually made a lot more sense directed at Teyla, to be honest. JF's reading made it obvious that it was the plea of a man without much hope for survival, and Teyla obviously didn't believe him. And later she says that she didn't trust him to be telling the truth anyway. I think she knows, as so many others have demonstrated, that John's affections lie elsewhere. And yes, the rest of the scene was pretty charged, but dude, Teyla was about to kill John. Of course it's going to be emotional. It would have been had she had her gun on pretty much anyone who didn't deserve to die. That's just who Teyla is. I'd have thought less of her if she hadn't been upset and asking John for forgiveness.

(And interestingly, the first reaction we got wasn't from Teyla. It was from Rodney. He looked rather confused. )

She knows John better than that, and, I think, knows where his affections really lie. As does Ronon, for that matter. The first time he gave Thalan an indication that he didn't believe Thalan was when Thalan, pretending to be Sheppard, said something about killing Weir. In fact, it could be argued that Ronon asked what he wanted to do about Weir to test Sheppard, because he knows Sheppard would never harm Elizabeth. To draw an actual reaction from Ronon, who's usually so stoic, it's got to be something big. And in this case, it was the suggestion of even harming Elizabeth. She's the one person in the city whom John would never harm, and I think just about everyone knows that John would rather die himself than hurt her, as we saw in Conversion.

[xkawaiix]

XCELLENT POINT X! She had just hastened to reassure Caldwell that she wasn't really 'her'-why not do the same with Shep? Why did he too look uncomfortable? As I said in a post a few pages back, why not make it into a 'funny' and laugh it off together or address it to place it at rest? Only one obvious answer....because it signified something that is real in a deeper sense to them-that 'something' that both feel is inappropriate between them but exists nonetheless.

Agreed! It's like a guy being teased about dating this girl. He ain't gonna sit around and joke along with them, he's going to ask them to cut it out or act embarrassed. To me, if it's a funny-laugh it off together address, then he didn't actually take the kiss as something serious. It was a meaningless kiss.

[Bama]

TPTB are going to have to call "something" in season 3. Fans are already revolting on Sheppard's kirking behavior, and grumblings are getting louder on the "triangle" ships they are toying with. If they keep on this path fans are going to give up. They can't treat us as if we are juvenile idiots and write a science fiction show like an afternoon soap opera.

I truly think they'll do what the ratings dicate FP. I'm sold that they believe that Shep/Weir is their 'ticket' to selling. Just look at the sci-fi website this week? They show the S/W 'scene' in promo as much as you want to watch it and they advertised the HECK out of this one. And what do you know...it's in the middle of the most important 2nd week in Feb. ratings 'sweeps' here in the U.S. They're *using* the hint and anticipation of a relationship between S and W to sell the ep and series to the audience. I truly think they know where their bread is buttered and will begin to milk the cow that gives the tastiest milk even more in season three. I also think they love Caldwell and we'll see a different slant as we approach season three. We're obviously-from the talk-going to see more Elizabeth in Season three and a different more aggressive one at that. Why? She sells best that way. The audience lap her up when she's on edge and in your face. I think they'll retool some things and tweak some things. I'm betting a Shep background/character dissection is also in the works. This season showed them how much the audiences wants and craves the real deal from him. I think season three will be the watermark for this series. I think it will bring great things that you can see setting up characterwise, plotwise and shipwise. ! Can't wait!!

[Luz]

Agreed! It's like a guy being teased about dating this girl. He ain't gonna sit around and joke along with them, he's going to ask them to cut it out or act embarrassed. To me, if it's a funny-laugh it off together address, then he didn't actually take the kiss as something serious. It was a meaningless kiss.

TLG

Spoiler:

I've always felt they were embarrassed at having done it in public, specially in front of Col. Skinner. But not about kissing, i didn't hear anyone saying "There's another thing I should probably
apologise for", or "Give it no further thought" .

[CKO]

and to think that when Atlantis began... i was totally against shep/weir.... now look at me... a total 180 turn.. i loved how shep was concerned for Liz (after she fainted)

[Luz]

and to think that when Atlantis began... i was totally against shep/weir.... now look at me... a total 180 turn.. i loved how shep was concerned for Liz (after she fainted)

Resistance is futile .

[Bama]

And it took some digging, but I found the notes I'd made on the episode back in early January. My opinion of it hasn't changed, but I feel like stating it again.

I can't imagine why! Excellent thoughts! One point I'm fuzzy on. You mention that Teyla knows that John wouldn't hurt Elizabeth and on the surface my instant reaction would be to agree with you but-and I need to do a re-watch-the scene with Teyla mentioning that she knew John would shoot Elizabeth *either way* confused me. What was the implication there? I'd like your thoughts on that scene. (or anyone else that wants to chime in!)

*help*!

[Melyanna]

I can't imagine why! Excellent thoughts! One point I'm fuzzy on. You mention that Teyla knows that John wouldn't hurt Elizabeth and on the surface my instant reaction would be to agree with you but-and I need to do a re-watch-the scene with Teyla mentioning that she knew John would shoot Elizabeth *either way* confused me. What was the implication there? I'd like your thoughts on that scene. (or anyone else that wants to chime in!)

*help*!

Er... I didn't say that. I said that Ronon knew John would never hurt Elizabeth.

On the scene you're talking about,

Spoiler:

Teyla gave John a non-lethal weapon. He wasn't going to be able to harm Elizabeth, just incapacitate her. If he were still Thalan, he'd incapacitate her to keep her from winning in the end. If he's John again (which is what I think), then he'd incapacitate her to save himself and to spare her the horror of watching her hands kill someone whom she cares for very much, whether she has control of her hands or not.

[gambit]

I can't imagine why! Excellent thoughts! One point I'm fuzzy on. You mention that Teyla knows that John wouldn't hurt Elizabeth and on the surface my instant reaction would be to agree with you but-and I need to do a re-watch-the scene with Teyla mentioning that she knew John would shoot Elizabeth *either way* confused me. What was the implication there? I'd like your thoughts on that scene. (or anyone else that wants to chime in!)

*help*!

She gave him the stunner because she knows John would do everything he could to stop her. And Thalan would do anything he could to stop her.

[Bama]

Er... I didn't say that. I said that Ronon knew John would never hurt Elizabeth.

On the scene you're talking about,

Spoiler:

Teyla gave John a non-lethal weapon. He wasn't going to be able to harm Elizabeth, just incapacitate her. If he were still Thalan, he'd incapacitate her to keep her from winning in the end. If he's John again (which is what I think), then he'd incapacitate her to save himself and to spare her the horror of watching her hands kill someone whom she cares for very much, whether she has control of her hands or not.

Well...teach me to read a little closer.

The scene did confuse me a little-it was almost as if John was wanting an admission of 'trust' from Teyla but didn't quite get what he was aiming for from her there. I thought perhaps she was telling him that as a professional soldier she knew he'd be able to do what had to be done-in essence paying him a compliment- so I think we're on the same page with the scene anyway. The gun, I'm assuming was left on stun by Teyla as she gave it to John / or /Thalan but it did seem a bit of a risk since his intent was to kill and he might have switched it.

[Luz]

Er... I didn't say that. I said that Ronon knew John would never hurt Elizabeth.

On the scene you're talking about,

Spoiler:

Teyla gave John a non-lethal weapon. He wasn't going to be able to harm Elizabeth, just incapacitate her. If he were still Thalan, he'd incapacitate her to keep her from winning in the end. If he's John again (which is what I think), then he'd incapacitate her to save himself and to spare her the horror of watching her hands kill someone whom she cares for very much, whether she has control of her hands or not.

OK, call me crazy ('cause i probably am ) but... and here be TLG

Spoiler:

I've said this before, i'll say it again. I found Sheppard stunning Weir to be very romantic, it gave the chills, and made me feel all warm on the inside. And his angst, his eyes OMFG, can we say angst? .
JF was fantstic, the way we couldn't really say if it was Sheppard or Thalan 'cause the changes were so subtle. I've seen this episode a thousand times over, and i still can't tell if he was really Sheppard when he said he was, or if it was just Thalan pretending to be.

[gambit]

Well...teach me to read a little closer.

The gun, I'm assuming was left on stun by Teyla as she gave it to John / or /Thalan but it did seem a bit of a risk since his intent was to kill and he might have switched it.

Spoiler:

She gave him a wraith stunner. I don't think there is a kill setting. The wraith weapons are designed to stun not kill(kind of ironic), can't feed off a dead body...