Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Scary Kitty]

Hey everybody, are we doing Hide and Seek on Sunday? I hope we are. It wouldn't interrupt the Superbowl if we do it at 4:30ET/1:30PT again. I'm actually probably not even going to a party. You don't want me to get started on the reasons behind that. Needless to say I'm annoyed.

[Scooby-mode]Ruh-roh![/Scooby-mode] Sorry to hear about the party suckitude.

I'm certainly going to be here for Hide and Seek on Sunday, and I believe SR was going to try to be here as well. Anyone else in?

Oh my yes - with their matching black jackets. Now John's leather jacket there is a GOOD leather jacket. Not like the clubbing ones they had in seasons 4 and 5.

3 hours later ...

Yup. Haven't done anything. Programs kept hanging up on me!!!

*looks around* Where is everybody tonight? So loooooonely ...

I'm here! I'm here!

[ShipperWriter]

Hi SK!!!

Yeah, my video making program is giving me grief, so I decided I'm gonna make a sig for one of my stories. Excuse me as I evilly distort a picture of Connor Trinneer ... sorry, Trip ...

[Southern Red]

W

[Scooby-mode]Ruh-roh![/Scooby-mode] Sorry to hear about the party suckitude.

I'm certainly going to be here for Hide and Seek on Sunday, and I believe SR was going to try to be here as well. Anyone else in?







I'm here! I'm here!

I'll be here on Sunday.

[ShipperWriter]

Okay, it's small and not exactly what I envisioned, but I've been staring at my screen for the past two hours, so this is as good as it's gonna get tonight:



Tada. My new sig. *snickers*

[JT-2]

Love the new sig, Shipper Writer!!

[ShipperWriter]

Thanks, mathgirl!!!

And apparently I'm on a roll, cause I made another one!



More of a Wednesday sig, but nonetheless.

Night everybody!

[Scary Kitty]

Hi SK!!!

Yeah, my video making program is giving me grief, so I decided I'm gonna make a sig for one of my stories. Excuse me as I evilly distort a picture of Connor Trinneer ... sorry, Trip ...

Poor Connor.

In the meantime... *kicks SW's video program*

Hmm, I suppose I ought to tinker with iMovie at some point, just to say I have.

W

I'll be here on Sunday.

Okay, that's three of us for Hide and Seek on Sunday. Who else wants to join the party?

Okay, it's small and not exactly what I envisioned, but I've been staring at my screen for the past two hours, so this is as good as it's gonna get tonight:

http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/...5on3-1-1-1.jpg

Tada. My new sig. *snickers*

Gorgeous!

Thanks, mathgirl!!!

And apparently I'm on a roll, cause I made another one!

http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/...isnite-2-1.png

More of a Wednesday sig, but nonetheless.

Night everybody!

Angsty, but so very lovely! *pets them both*

[JT-2]

Is Madness reigns out there? It would be nice if she could join us this time.

[Madness reigns]

Is Madness reigns out there? It would be nice if she could join us this time.

Sorry, have been lurking and reading all the interesting observations - just didn't really have anything half as eloquent to add

I'll be here, hopefully (Child is finally better and the cat no longer has to wear her flowerpot so isn't sulking!! )

What time are we looking at and does anyone wanna work out what time it'll be for me?? GMT?

[gateraid]

I'm going to come down from the ivory tower to actually interact with everyone *cracks fingers*

OMG, where to start. Gateraid, those caps are some of your best. I'd hate to know I had to pick a favorite.

Your observations on Rising are on the mark also. I never can make up my mind about ship in the pilot. I know plenty of people who picked Sparky as the canon ship after watching it, but if you go with the obvious intent, all the signs point to Sheyla. So many times, a show that continues past the pilot becomes almost the opposite in a lot of ways very quickly. I think that's what seems to have happened here, even if they deny it.

Aside from the champagne look (which his response kinda nullifies), I can't see any evidence of sparky ship in Rising. It didn't even occur to me at all until the tag scene in 38 Minutes, which was more of a huh? Did I imagine that? I thought it was meant to be the other one?" type affair. Buuut, why did she look at him of all people? Was it because he was the first person she saw (and noticed he'd seen her pick it up), or did she seek him out because they'd sort of connected as 'unusual for their rank/position' type people?

In the real world, Elizabeth would have had very little say so over the choice of military personnel. John correctly automatically became commander because of rank and as long as they were cut off, that worked. But once they got reestablished a new commander would have been sent without regard to what she wanted. If indeed, the President let her pick someone, then it would have taken a direct order from him, as Commanding Officer of the military, to convince those Generals to let Shep stay. But they didn't have time to do all that so we have to give them creative license.

When you put it like that, now I want to see Landry getting a phone call from the Big Guy. But the pwning of Caldwell at the end of the cutaway wouldn't be there, so I guess what we got worked too. People say they're suprised Weir didn't punch Kav in CM, but after "not the one you wanted" I'm surprised Caldwell didn't do the same. Caldwell: Yeah....ummmm....the ahhhh....entity got her. What do you mean it looks suspicious? Would I be trying to drag her body into that airlock if i had anything to hide?

And Shep had to go on that first mission so he could turn on the necklace to bring the Wraith. I can just see the writers pondering over that one and deciding to mix a little ship in with the whole thing to kill two birds with one stone. Too bad one of them landed like a rock.

Sheppard: As a token of my new love, let me give you this necklace that is specifically designed to kill you and everyone around you




Teyla: I shall cherish it in the afterlife

We've gotten a bit into my second section of The Rising: exploration of Atlantis to first mission, but can discuss that more, if you wish. How about Mr. SR's favorite part, "Spaceships!!!!!!"? How must the expedition members have been feeling? And then came the "OMG, we're all gonna die" section.

Also what are your thoughts on the actual mission to Athos? John and the kids. Sumner's treatment of Teyla. The outcome with the arrival of the Wraith. We'd probably best avoid the John/Teyla parts. I think we all know what we think about those.

As for intent, I should probably avoid commenting, but in the tent scene I think Shep was hitting on Teyla. He added an extra something to "I enjoy a good cup of tea, now that's something we know about each other...." Like all lines, it's all in the delivery. Moving on


I was taken aback with the discovery of Atlantis and its wonders. I take my hat off to David Hewlett and his delivery of "oh, now that is impressive" because it's really hard to deliver that without sounding gay (that's not a slight against gays, just that that isn't something a straight man would generally say) but it summed up the sight (Atlantis under the ocean) perfectly.

In hindsight, the jumpers/gateships are quite logical. The ancients built the gate system, so why wouldn't they create a vehicle that could fit through one. Even the Goauld (sp) managed to do that much themselves. But they were cooool!!!!!! A spaceship that can be controlled through mindpower! It's a brilliant plot device: no "activate cloak", no "divert all power to the shields", no lingo for the sake of it

I was impressed with Sumner on the Athos mission. They created a guy who was a hardass, but good at his job. He was just different to Shep, not better or worse. He had valid reasons for not thinking much of Sheppard, and while he didn't think a lot of Weir, he at least made the effort to keep her in the loop (yes, it's debatable where that relationship would have ended up - probably in the toilet) and I think he would have respected her authority until a situation arose where there was a clear military/civilian divide. Rodney's "impressive" comment is immediately followed by Sumner's "if we can't dial out, this is gonna be a problem". A room full of genius's (sp???), and it's the jarhead who points out the danger.

That said, someone of his experience should have been able to work with Teyla better. You don't get to Colonel without picking up at least some people skills, even if that isn't the priority of your job. He was correct with "these people can't help us" but it's not like he gave them a chance.

When they were captured, I was surprised (again) that they made him so stoic. I wanted him to be a weenie so I could hate him, but dammit, he wasn't. It grated me a little in a later ep when they implied that Sumner spilled the dirt on Earth (it's in the interepretation, that mightn't have been their intention) because all they got out of him was a name. And an UnHappy Meal.

As for Shep going off solo to 'rescue' Sumner - wtf? He was the only one who could get everyone else to safety. What were they supposed to do - push the jumper into space? He should have at least taken Ford with him as backup, but I don't think they should have taken anything away from the "hero/the guy" setup that they were doing.

ZOMG, if Shep was a fish out of water just walking around Stargate Command, he was really out of his element on the mission to Athos. At least, he was during the first part of it. I admit, I had to headdesk right along with Sumner when John couldn't figure out that Halling was his name. Honestly, I didn't get all bent out of shape about the way Sumner acted towards Teyla. Under the circumstances, it was understandable that he'd be cautious, and it does carry over quite well to the continued questions about the Athosians in general through Suspicion.

To this day I still crack up at that line

I'm glad you dropped by. I needed a break from working on my cookbook. OMG, how do you people with desk jobs stand working at a computer all day? I would have run screaming from my office. Good thing I was able to move around in the classroom. Anyway.

While we were watching Rising, Mr. SR made some very interesting comments about the decisions the military guys were making. While he thought Sumner should have been more sensitive to the fact that he was on another planet and a young female leader shouldn't have been shocking, he also thought John made a whole series of bad decisions from a command standpoint. The biggest was when he went off to rescue Sumner, leaving Ford behind. Ford was right there.

All emotion aside, they never should have trusted the Athosians like they did. For all they knew these people could have been some sort of dangerous enemy like the Goa'uld. You can't go on appearances. If I had been the leader, I would have quarantined them and ripped Sheppard a new one. But we can't dwell on reality, especially in a SciFi show that's rated PG.

That's a good point, although I guess they would argue that they touched on it during the balcony arguement, then brought it up again during Hide and Seek. Bringing them back to the city (whilst it was the only thing to do in a bind) seemed a bit silly. It all worked out in the end though.

Oh I absolutely agree. Elizabeth is quite correct in her argument to John on the balcony. She says maybe one of them brought the Wraith. For all they knew, it could have been that way. And then I've read people (who just happen to ship John with someone else) say how stupid Elizabeth's argument was about maybe negotiating with the Wraith. We find out in Before I Sleep that the Ancients tried that. And they were pretty bright.

I have to admit I *headdesked* at the line because it was so naive. But I completely understand why she said it (and needed to say it). Had she actually seen the Wraith at that point, then she would have understood the absurdity of her suggestion.

Yes, the Wraith started out very scary and hard to kill. The idea of them making you see things completely went away after season 1. It takes a nuke flown into a hive ship to destroy one in season 1 but then in season 5 it only takes a few drones.

I forgot about those vision things. One would think it would have gone in the other direction - giving them the ability to make you see 'real' things, like Woolsey's Anna Galvin fantasy

They needed someone like Weir to contrast with the military mindset. As much as I love the military guys, they tend to shoot first and forget to ask questions. That would have made the show boring, and they would have had to come up with a lot more enemies. They needed Weir to be diplomatic and provide interest, and with better writers we would have seen more scenes like the ones with her and John arguing.

The balcony arguement is one of my favourites. "I see your point - now you see mine" are simple words, but such a breath of fresh air for Stargate. It's why I fell in love with the Weir character, even if I didn't always agree with her. In the past it would have been a simple yes/no discussion, yet here we had two people making their case for their viewpoints.

IMO, the only times the civilian/military thing really worked was in: Rising, Hot Zone (I'm including it even though I see the divide as a personal/stylistic one rather than a clash of jurisdiction), Poisoning the Well (where he's needling her to test their new weapon), Seige II, and Trinity (especially Trinity).

What a great Friday afternoon!

Seems a bit up and down for you There's always next week

Love the 'Wednesday' sig. I'm not sure which is sadder - what those lyrics mean relative to sparky or the fact that I recognised where they came from

[Southern Red]

Okay, it's small and not exactly what I envisioned, but I've been staring at my screen for the past two hours, so this is as good as it's gonna get tonight:

http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/...5on3-1-1-1.jpg

Tada. My new sig. *snickers*

Love what you did with the red text there. And love the sig.

Poor Connor.

In the meantime... *kicks SW's video program*

Hmm, I suppose I ought to tinker with iMovie at some point, just to say I have.



Okay, that's three of us for Hide and Seek on Sunday. Who else wants to join the party?



Gorgeous!



Angsty, but so very lovely! *pets them both*

iMovie is fun and so easy. Well, easy if you've ever used any other vid software. It's mostly plug and play.

Sorry, have been lurking and reading all the interesting observations - just didn't really have anything half as eloquent to add

I'll be here, hopefully (Child is finally better and the cat no longer has to wear her flowerpot so isn't sulking!! )

What time are we looking at and does anyone wanna work out what time it'll be for me?? GMT?

I think we settled on 4:30PM EST, which I think would be 9:30PM GMT. Someone can correct me, if I'm wrong.

I'm going to come down from the ivory tower to actually interact with everyone *cracks fingers*



Aside from the champagne look (which his response kinda nullifies), I can't see any evidence of sparky ship in Rising. It didn't even occur to me at all until the tag scene in 38 Minutes, which was more of a huh? Did I imagine that? I thought it was meant to be the other one?" type affair. Buuut, why did she look at him of all people? Was it because he was the first person she saw (and noticed he'd seen her pick it up), or did she seek him out because they'd sort of connected as 'unusual for their rank/position' type people?

I thought the same thing at first, but later went back and took a closer look and changed my mind. The connection between them is established too well not to be foreshadowing a closer relationship later.

As for intent, I should probably avoid commenting, but in the tent scene I think Shep was hitting on Teyla. He added an extra something to "I enjoy a good cup of tea, now that's something we know about each other...." Like all lines, it's all in the delivery. Moving on

And again, I thought exactly this until Conversion. Not only was he hitting on her, but she was responding. So, the future canon couple was established and we were expecting it. What happened? Why was that cave scene the last romantic moment between them? What would have been the logical progression of that ship? More eye gazing, more little touches like when he put the necklace on her, more moments alone when he spoke to her in a soft voice and she got all dewy-eyed? What changed? As far as I saw, that was completely dropped and aside from a few awkward attempts to try to convince us there might or might not at some future date to still be determined be another moment between them, they never went there again. I mention Conversion because, and I said it at the time, his attack on her and her shock because of it made any future ship between them unlikely. Just the way I see it, of course. No problem if others see it different.

When they were captured, I was surprised (again) that they made him so stoic. I wanted him to be a weenie so I could hate him, but dammit, he wasn't. It grated me a little in a later ep when they implied that Sumner spilled the dirt on Earth (it's in the interepretation, that mightn't have been their intention) because all they got out of him was a name. And an UnHappy Meal.

No surprise there. After all, he is a Marine. Hoo Rah!

[Falcon Horus]

[Southern Red]

FH has laryngitis. LOL

[Falcon Horus]

Great, I thought that bug was fixed.

[Scary Kitty]

Good morning, Sparkies! Happy Sparky!Family Saturday!

I'm going to come down from the ivory tower to actually interact with everyone *cracks fingers*

When they were captured, I was surprised (again) that they made him so stoic. I wanted him to be a weenie so I could hate him, but dammit, he wasn't. It grated me a little in a later ep when they implied that Sumner spilled the dirt on Earth (it's in the interepretation, that mightn't have been their intention) because all they got out of him was a name. And an UnHappy Meal.

Well, the Wraith did get more than just a name:

WRAITH (silently): What do you call your world?

SUMNER (struggling not to speak, but unable to resist): Earth.

WRAITH: It is not among our stars.

SUMNER (still struggling): No.

WRAITH: Tell me of Earth. How many more are there of your kind? (Again, Sumner tries not to let her into his mind.) Thousands? Millions? (delighted) More. Our feeding ground has not been so rich in ten thousand years.

So in addition to the name, they knew it "wasn't among their stars" (meaning, it wasn't in the Pegasus Galaxy), and they knew it had LOTS of tasty UnHappy Meals.

I have to admit I *headdesked* at the line because it was so naive. But I completely understand why she said it (and needed to say it). Had she actually seen the Wraith at that point, then she would have understood the absurdity of her suggestion.

On the other hand, there's still the Wraith worshippers, though we didn't find out about them until Season 2. In retrospect, their existence does lend credence to her line of thinking.

The balcony arguement is one of my favourites. "I see your point - now you see mine" are simple words, but such a breath of fresh air for Stargate. It's why I fell in love with the Weir character, even if I didn't always agree with her. In the past it would have been a simple yes/no discussion, yet here we had two people making their case for their viewpoints.

IMO, the only times the civilian/military thing really worked was in: Rising, Hot Zone (I'm including it even though I see the divide as a personal/stylistic one rather than a clash of jurisdiction), Poisoning the Well (where he's needling her to test their new weapon), Seige II, and Trinity (especially Trinity).

Yeah, it's part of why I fell in love with our Lizzeh, too. She's so unique in all the Gateverse.

iMovie is fun and so easy. Well, easy if you've ever used any other vid software. It's mostly plug and play.

Heh! I've never used vid software before. But plug and play is easy enough.

I think we settled on 4:30PM EST, which I think would be 9:30PM GMT. Someone can correct me, if I'm wrong.

Yep, that's the right time.

I thought the same thing at first, but later went back and took a closer look and changed my mind. The connection between them is established too well not to be foreshadowing a closer relationship later.

*nods* I have to agree. While it might not be obvious to anyone watching Rising for the very first time, for anyone who has seen at least the rest of Season 1, it does look quite a bit like foreshadowing of greater feelings.

And again, I thought exactly this until Conversion. Not only was he hitting on her, but she was responding. So, the future canon couple was established and we were expecting it. What happened? Why was that cave scene the last romantic moment between them? What would have been the logical progression of that ship? More eye gazing, more little touches like when he put the necklace on her, more moments alone when he spoke to her in a soft voice and she got all dewy-eyed? What changed? As far as I saw, that was completely dropped and aside from a few awkward attempts to try to convince us there might or might not at some future date to still be determined be another moment between them, they never went there again. I mention Conversion because, and I said it at the time, his attack on her and her shock because of it made any future ship between them unlikely. Just the way I see it, of course. No problem if others see it different.

And it's worth noting that she still appears to be rather traumatized (for lack of a better word) by that incident to be having nightmares about it two years later in Doppelganger.

Great, I thought that bug was fixed.

Apparently not. *kicks GW*