Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Scary Kitty]

From the season 4 companion book:
"For various reasons, the production found it necessary to write out the character of Dr Elizabeth Weir, played by Torri Higginson. The decision had actually been made at the conclusion of season three. The writers had always found weir a difficult character to intergrate into the Atlantis enviroment, with all its inherent jeopardy- as a civilian diplomat with no military backround, Weir's function as part of the Pegasus Project was difficult to flesh out.Finding reasons to take her offworld and into the heart of the story could easily feel contrived. Yet having her be the character that stayed in the city watching the teams come and go did not make for a fullfilling role, either for the writers or Higgenson. Eventually the producers felt the only solution was to replace the character. "

Like I suspected; they downplayed it. Not to mention flat-out lied. What was so difficult about integrating Weir that wasn't so difficult about Woolsey, who was also a civilian with no military background? Oh yeah, he's male. Finding reasons to take her off world felt contrived? Then how do they explain Inquisition and the introduction of the Pegasus Coalition, a situation that was tailor-made for Weir's diplomatic background? They can't. The truth is, they just wanted to get rid of Torri. What a frakking joke.

[VampyreWraith]

^^ And that makes me furious all over again.

Exactly, and sorry to upset u. i mean season 5 had woolsey, and i liked him, but I've must've missed the part where they explained woolseys commando past.

[VampyreWraith]

Like I suspected; they downplayed it. Not to mention flat-out lied. What was so difficult about integrating Weir that wasn't so difficult about Woolsey, who was also a civilian with no military background? Oh yeah, he's male. Finding reasons to take her off world felt contrived? Then how do they explain Inquisition and the introduction of the Pegasus Coalition, a situation that was tailor-made for Weir's diplomatic background? They can't. The truth is, they just wanted to get rid of Torri. What a frakking joke.

And sending woolsey to hang out with todd in first contact and TLT wasnt contrived? lol

[gateraid]

From the season 4 companion book:
"For various reasons, the production found it necessary to write out the character of Dr Elizabeth Weir, played by Torri Higginson. The decision had actually been made at the conclusion of season three. The writers had always found weir a difficult character to intergrate into the Atlantis enviroment, with all its inherent jeopardy- as a civilian diplomat with no military backround, Weir's function as part of the Pegasus Project was difficult to flesh out.Finding reasons to take her offworld and into the heart of the story could easily feel contrived. Yet having her be the character that stayed in the city watching the teams come and go did not make for a fullfilling role, either for the writers or Higgenson. Eventually the producers felt the only solution was to replace the character. "

Excuse my bluntness, but are you ****ing kidding me? That's complete bull****.

* the offworld journeys - Weir was about on par with Carter and Woolsey (it's hard to say, both characters were only there for one season)

* staying on Atlantis - they managed to find a way to incorporate her into every episode without (IMO at least) making it seem contrived (cf Woolsey in s5)

* the fact that she had no military background was her point of difference. Delve deeper into it, evolve on it. They did it with Keller for ****s sake

* ****ity **** **** - I think that sums up my thought

^^ And that makes me furious all over again.

Me too

Like I suspected; they downplayed it. Not to mention flat-out lied. What was so difficult about integrating Weir that wasn't so difficult about Woolsey, who was also a civilian with no military background? Oh yeah, he's male. Finding reasons to take her off world felt contrived? Then how do they explain Inquisition and the introduction of the Pegasus Coalition, a situation that was tailor-made for Weir's diplomatic background? They can't. The truth is, they just wanted to get rid of Torri. What a frakking joke.

I suspect there were a whole variety of reasons. I'd go with:

* they found Weir hard to write for, for the reasons above that they listed

* they wanted Sheyla to go ahead in s4, hard with Weir there

* they wanted Carter there, the most logical place (in their minds) was in command. Having her play second fiddle to Weir was not one of their goals

* having a military commander was 'cool'. She can fire guns and stuff. Although ironically she only did it the one time, odd considering in Midway you'd think she would've gone with them.

* AT 'got it' as far as the fanbase was concerned. That is, she's always been fairly astute and knows what to say.

* Torri probably got sick of getting scripts where Weir wasn't doing a lot (again, ironic, considering some of the amazing s3 eps) and was saying this to TPTW

* TPTW probably got sick of having Torri banging on the door

* Many of TPTW have a serious infatuation with AT (there's nothing wrong with that, she's a great person, I'm just saying subconsciously it probably played a part) having worked with her for the previous ten years

* That infatuation probably played a part in having her in command of Atlantis, rather than in a s2 Caldwell type role ie being in character, very rule/order oriented, and pushing both Weir and Sheppard

* The IOA "we're gonna fire your ass" storyline had run it's course - either do it, or don't, but they couldn't have done yet another of those eps

[Lt.Colonel John Sheppard]

and they probably didnt like Joe F banging on their doors trying to keep a line or two in reunion about weir.

[Killdeer]

Exactly, and sorry to upset u. i mean season 5 had woolsey, and i liked him, but I've must've missed the part where they explained woolseys commando past.

Oh don't apologize - it's not you. It's just....it's been three years, and I'm still not dealing well with how they treated Elizabeth. It's why I'm only peripherally involved in the fandom these days.

Gateraid,very good points about the reasons for them kicking Torri out. In fact, I agree with your entire post

[Lt.Colonel John Sheppard]

OT i was listening to a music video with this song and i thought of sparky

Spoiler:

DIDN'T WE ALMOST HAVE IT ALL? (Whitney Houston)

Remember when we held on in the rain
The nights we almost lost it once again
We can take the night into tomorrow
Living on feelings
Touching you, I feel it all again

(Chorus
Didn't we almost have it all
When love was all we had worth giving
The ride with you was worth the fall, my friend
Loving you makes life worth living
Didn't we almost have it all
The nights we held on 'til the morning
You know you'll never love that way again
Didn't we almost have it all

The way you used to touch me felt so fine
We kept our hearts together down the line
A moment in the soul can last forever
Comfort and keep us
Help me bring the feeling back again

(Repeat chorus)

(Bridge)
Didn't we have the best of times

When love was young and new
Couldn't we reach inside and find
The world of me and you
We'll never lose it again
'Cause, once you know what love is
You never let it end

(Repeat chorus)

Didn't we almost have it all

[Scary Kitty]

Exactly, and sorry to upset u. i mean season 5 had woolsey, and i liked him, but I've must've missed the part where they explained woolseys commando past.

*snickers*

And sending woolsey to hang out with todd in first contact and TLT wasnt contrived? lol

No kidding! What the heck was all of that?!

Excuse my bluntness, but are you ****ing kidding me? That's complete bull****.

* the offworld journeys - Weir was about on par with Carter and Woolsey (it's hard to say, both characters were only there for one season)

* staying on Atlantis - they managed to find a way to incorporate her into every episode without (IMO at least) making it seem contrived (cf Woolsey in s5)

* the fact that she had no military background was her point of difference. Delve deeper into it, evolve on it. They did it with Keller for ****s sake

* ****ity **** **** - I think that sums up my thought

I'd say that sums up all our thoughts.

I suspect there were a whole variety of reasons. I'd go with:

* they found Weir hard to write for, for the reasons above that they listed

* they wanted Sheyla to go ahead in s4, hard with Weir there

* they wanted Carter there, the most logical place (in their minds) was in command. Having her play second fiddle to Weir was not one of their goals

* having a military commander was 'cool'. She can fire guns and stuff. Although ironically she only did it the one time, odd considering in Midway you'd think she would've gone with them.

* AT 'got it' as far as the fanbase was concerned. That is, she's always been fairly astute and knows what to say.

* Torri probably got sick of getting scripts where Weir wasn't doing a lot (again, ironic, considering some of the amazing s3 eps) and was saying this to TPTW

* TPTW probably got sick of having Torri banging on the door

* Many of TPTW have a serious infatuation with AT (there's nothing wrong with that, she's a great person, I'm just saying subconsciously it probably played a part) having worked with her for the previous ten years

* That infatuation probably played a part in having her in command of Atlantis, rather than in a s2 Caldwell type role ie being in character, very rule/order oriented, and pushing both Weir and Sheppard

* The IOA "we're gonna fire your ass" storyline had run it's course - either do it, or don't, but they couldn't have done yet another of those eps

You can also add JoeF's comments from Collectormania last weekend that hinted that the producers didn't think Torri was sexy enough. *snorts*

and they probably didnt like Joe F banging on their doors trying to keep a line or two in reunion about weir.

That was after they fired Torri. We're talking about why they fired her in the first place.

[Scary Kitty]

Oh don't apologize - it's not you. It's just....it's been three years, and I'm still not dealing well with how they treated Elizabeth. It's why I'm only peripherally involved in the fandom these days.

Gateraid,very good points about the reasons for them kicking Torri out.

Heck, I'm only involved with fandom insofar as Sparky fandom. My rage fuels me to prove TPTW's decision was stinking dead wrong.

[Lt.Colonel John Sheppard]

they didn't think torri was sexy enough? thats a bunch of bs if you ask me.

[VampyreWraith]

And the thing is they brought in Sam to replace Elizabeth to maybe bring over some more SG1 fans to Atlantis, but Atlantis Sam is barely recognizable as sg1 sam. i really liked sg1 sam. But atlantis sam, i mean they, dumbed her down, and sexed her up, shes military, y the in the world is she in a skin tight leather outfit, she should be in either a dress iniform or bdu's.I hate reading the interviews with the costume designer for season 4, shes always saying she wanted the costumes to be sexier, more fitted. meanwhile i'm thinking theyre a scientific/military outpost, fighting life sucking aliens and evil robots, sexy should not be a priority. If they wanted amanda there, they didnt have to get rid of elizabeth. I mean, in New Order, Sam and Elizabeth, were good in there scenes together. sorry for the rant.

[gateraid]

Oh don't apologize - it's not you. It's just....it's been three years, and I'm still not dealing well with how they treated Elizabeth. It's why I'm only peripherally involved in the fandom these days.

Same here, on both points.

Gateraid,very good points about the reasons for them kicking Torri out. In fact, I agree with your entire post

I wish you didn't, that means there might be a hint of truth in it

Exactly, and sorry to upset u. i mean season 5 had woolsey, and i liked him, but I've must've missed the part where they explained woolseys commando past.

Yeah, if it isn't contrived with him (and Keller), why is it with Weir?

And sending woolsey to hang out with todd in first contact and TLT wasnt contrived? lol

Same here. It actually would've made sense to send Weir, given that she actually had more history with Todd. Also, John would've gone nuts when Todd threatened to kill her. And she wouldn't have peed her pants like Woolsey

*snickers*



No kidding! What the heck was all of that?!



I'd say that sums up all our thoughts.



You can also add JoeF's comments from Collectormania last weekend that hinted that the producers didn't think Torri was sexy enough. *snorts*


That was after they fired Torri. We're talking about why they fired her in the first place.

*cough*Blonde, big boobs*cough*

And the thing is they brought in Sam to replace Elizabeth to maybe bring over some more SG1 fans to Atlantis, but Atlantis Sam is barely recognizable as sg1 sam. i really liked sg1 sam. But atlantis sam, i mean they, dumbed her down, and sexed her up, shes military, y the in the world is she in a skin tight leather outfit, she should be in either a dress iniform or bdu's.I hate reading the interviews with the costume designer for season 4, shes always saying she wanted the costumes to be sexier, more fitted. meanwhile i'm thinking theyre a scientific/military outpost, fighting life sucking aliens and evil robots, sexy should not be a priority. If they wanted amanda there, they didnt have to get rid of elizabeth. I mean, in New Order, Sam and Elizabeth, were good in there scenes together. sorry for the rant.

Same actor, different character. IMO they weakened her from the get go. Although she'd suffered somewhat from inconsistent writing in s9/10, at least when she took charge, she didn't falter. And as for the uniforms, she should've been in a military uniform, unless she resigned her commission to take command (highly unlikely).

[VampyreWraith]

Same here, on both points.



I wish you didn't, that means there might be a hint of truth in it



Yeah, if it isn't contrived with him (and Keller), why is it with Weir?



Same here. It actually would've made sense to send Weir, given that she actually had more history with Todd. Also, John would've gone nuts when Todd threatened to kill her. And she wouldn't have peed her pants like Woolsey



*cough*Blonde, big boobs*cough*




Same actor, different character. IMO they weakened her from the get go. Although she'd suffered somewhat from inconsistent writing in s9/10, at least when she took charge, she didn't falter. And as for the uniforms, she should've been in a military uniform, unless she resigned her commission to take command (highly unlikely).

i never really got the reasoning that because woolsey had no history with todd that he'd be a good choice to go.

Sam was still Col Samantha Carter and shouldve been in uniform, I mean i didn't see Caldwell in a new leather outfit, i guess he wasnt sexy enough to carry it off lol

[Irish Eyes]

And the thing is they brought in Sam to replace Elizabeth to maybe bring over some more SG1 fans to Atlantis, but Atlantis Sam is barely recognizable as sg1 sam. i really liked sg1 sam. But atlantis sam, i mean they, dumbed her down, and sexed her up, shes military, y the in the world is she in a skin tight leather outfit, she should be in either a dress iniform or bdu's.I hate reading the interviews with the costume designer for season 4, shes always saying she wanted the costumes to be sexier, more fitted. meanwhile i'm thinking theyre a scientific/military outpost, fighting life sucking aliens and evil robots, sexy should not be a priority. If they wanted amanda there, they didnt have to get rid of elizabeth. I mean, in New Order, Sam and Elizabeth, were good in there scenes together. sorry for the rant.

Gateraid made a lot of good points as to why this happened, but for me this is still reason #1. And honestly, I can't fault TPTB for part of their reasoning because I think it came true - some new fans started watching because Sam was there. But of course they didn't take into account the flip side of that which was losing many Elizabeth fans. And where they really blew it was they didn't think outside the box by MOVING Elizabeth to another position in Atlantis and letting Sam command. They could have had their cake and eaten it too.

On another note, this thread continues to be oh so very entertaining! Whenever I get the chance to peek in here there's always a lively discussion going on. Viva la Sparky!

[VampyreWraith]

Gateraid made a lot of good points as to why this happened, but for me this is still reason #1. And honestly, I can't fault TPTB for part of their reasoning because I think it came true - some new fans started watching because Sam was there. But of course they didn't take into account the flip side of that which was losing many Elizabeth fans. And where they really blew it was they didn't think outside the box by MOVING Elizabeth to another position in Atlantis and letting Sam command. They could have had their cake and eaten it too.

On another note, this thread continues to be oh so very entertaining! Whenever I get the chance to peek in here there's always a lively discussion going on. Viva la Sparky!

A lot of SG1 fans who liked Sam in sg1, like me , were very unhappy about Atlantis Sam, and her characterization.
And i agree about it wouldve been better to move elizabeth and have sam in charge, but then they couldve done john/elizabeth with out chain of command issues. which i dont know what the problem wouldve been there cuz rachel was pregnant, but i dont think they knew till they already made the casting changes so it mightve been to late. i dunno lol doesnt really make sense. But then again they might not have been able to afford both.