Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Bama]

And of course we had Elizabeth defending John's integrity and asking to see him in her vision. (Right, I think? It's been a while since I watched it.)

It's interesting that we didn't see John interacting with cloud!Liz or vice versa. Because the jig would have been up immediately?

cloud!liz? Jig up? Ok...now I'm lost...

[parsifal]

cloud!liz? Jig up? Ok...now I'm lost...

cloud!Liz = the alien representation of Elizabeth (the aliens were kind of like clouds of energy)

Jig = the illusion

[Bama]

cloud!Liz = the alien representation of Elizabeth (the aliens were kind of like clouds of energy)

Jig = the illusion

Gotcha P. Man, I really need to rewatch this ep. sigh...the trouble I go to...


BTW, anyone know what a 'good' ratings number is for atlantis. I'm told around a 2.0 is good for the sci-fi channel and that's about what sga has averaged. TLB/aurora were down a bit to 1.7. I think the eps this year have been great on sga. imo, sg-1 has stunk at times though and been very inconsistent. the hubby thinks so too and it's numbers have generally been lower than sga's. I wonder if sga isn't suffering a little here at mid-season due to 'association'. Will they bounce back up ya think? I'd think so during the spring when the competition is lesser and new story/plot lines develop to grab folks. Maybe I'm just not the only one not enthralled by the missing ford thing. ? I had to watch anyway for my boy and girl tho. ; )

[xkawaiix]

Ahhh...'charm him' eh? That would make sense. Who's idea was it to go shopping and buy her 'normal' earth clothing? Was that the mist's or was that Shep's curiosity acting up? Or was it him being embarrassed for his friends to see her in Xenawear? ; ) Or was it, as sheylas like to think, a burning desire to see her as he might a sexy earth woman?

Well, you don't usually see someone in Xena wear unless they have had more than their fair share of beers and vodka or, in Teyla's case, need the loose clothing (although I don't find mini skirts and short tops very pleasant). I could understand why John would have asked her to change.

You know at first glance, I thought that this:

He should have driven over to simon's for that treat.

read:

He should have driven over Simon for that treat.

[Bama]

Well, you don't usually see someone in Xena wear unless they have had more than their fair share of beers and vodka or, in Teyla's case, need the loose clothing (although I don't find mini skirts and short tops very pleasant). I could understand why John would have asked her to change.

You know at first glance, I thought that this:



read:

He should have driven over Simon for that treat.

LOL! Well, that too. Whatever it takes!

[Melyanna]

Wow. I am literally in awe. I'm supposed to be an English lit student (ie gd at analysis) but it NEVER occured to me that a tv show would have that kind of depth. I never thought that she could be imposing an image on her reality as the "mist" Hammond only talked about John doing that. I bow down before a master!! Basically I think everyone seems to be saying that we're glad Simon's gone, and Weir is happy too. right?

Heh, English student here too, though my emphasis is more on rhetoric and linguistics than literature. But pop culture and fandom are particular interests of mine, especially when you start looking at thins like television as the same concept as stories like Beowulf – things that weren't intended as "literature" but become it anyway. If I end up getting a graduate degree, I'm hoping to do some study in modern storytelling traditions.

Anyway...

I think the difference between John and Elizabeth in Home is that John was consciously projecting things into his environment, probably to figure out what was going on. Elizabeth wasn't. I think the mist was taking some of her subconscious desires and working them in with reality, which is why she felt like something was wrong as soon as Simon kissed her. (And I can't say enough for how Torri handled that scene. That little moment when she wipes her mouth after Simon kisses her is just remarkable.)

As for John, I think he was mostly trying to figure out what in the world was going on. He knew quite early that something was wrong, because he knew better than to expect the commendations of his superiors. So the next thing that happens is they give him and Teyla a limo (I don't think the military does this at all, let alone for a major) and send him shopping. So he tests the reality, and Teyla comes out wearing next to nothing. Then he directs the limo driver to take him to an apartment he's never owned, but has clearly imagined enough to have it appear in detail. But through all this he's disturbed, and – most significantly in my mind – worried about Elizabeth. (Oh, and someone asked this earlier – Teyla was put in John's reality because she had no memories of Earth, so she had to be put in someone else's.)

I actually had some more I wanted to add, but I wandered from the computer for a few hours and immersed myself a bit too much in Firefly. I'll probably remember in a few hours more, but in the meantime, I have one other thing to add. At the end, when John says he's kicking himself over what he could have imagined in the fabricated reality, he looks straight at Elizabeth.

[Bama]

Heh, English student here too, though my emphasis is more on rhetoric and linguistics than literature. But pop culture and fandom are particular interests of mine, especially when you start looking at thins like television as the same concept as stories like Beowulf – things that weren't intended as "literature" but become it anyway. If I end up getting a graduate degree, I'm hoping to do some study in modern storytelling traditions.

Anyway...

I think the difference between John and Elizabeth in Home is that John was consciously projecting things into his environment, probably to figure out what was going on. Elizabeth wasn't. I think the mist was taking some of her subconscious desires and working them in with reality, which is why she felt like something was wrong as soon as Simon kissed her. (And I can't say enough for how Torri handled that scene. That little moment when she wipes her mouth after Simon kisses her is just remarkable.)

As for John, I think he was mostly trying to figure out what in the world was going on. He knew quite early that something was wrong, because he knew better than to expect the commendations of his superiors. So the next thing that happens is they give him and Teyla a limo (I don't think the military does this at all, let alone for a major) and send him shopping. So he tests the reality, and Teyla comes out wearing next to nothing. Then he directs the limo driver to take him to an apartment he's never owned, but has clearly imagined enough to have it appear in detail. But through all this he's disturbed, and – most significantly in my mind – worried about Elizabeth. (Oh, and someone asked this earlier – Teyla was put in John's reality because she had no memories of Earth, so she had to be put in someone else's.)

I actually had some more I wanted to add, but I wandered from the computer for a few hours and immersed myself a bit too much in Firefly. I'll probably remember in a few hours more, but in the meantime, I have one other thing to add. At the end, when John says he's kicking himself over what he could have imagined in the fabricated reality, he looks straight at Elizabeth.

That helps Mel but one more question for you guys: Was John 'directing' Teyla's actions in his vision or was she directing her own?

And if Elizabeth was envisioning her fondest wishes, isn't it a logical 'jump' to think that John could be envisioning his at that point?

If that is the case, then it seems that John wouldn't have voluntarily even placed Teyla into his own 'vision' (as the 'mist' forced that) and that even with her *forced* into his vision and with her dressing skimpily and finding himself totally alone with her that neither Teyla nor he could keep his mind off of Elizabeth long enough to even begin to think about pursuing anything more personal between them. I guess 'Home' shows us that John's true fantasy has little to do with wealth or parties or cute chicks in skimpy clothing and more to do with his inner desire to connect with that one special person that he can't forget about no matter what.

I like that. A lot, lot.

Hmmm...There's more to say about this ep for me I think but I need to re-watch it again first.

[Melyanna]

That helps Mel but one more question for you guys: Was John 'directing' Teyla's actions in his vision or was she directing her own?

I'd say Teyla was directing herself. When Mist!Hammond explained at the end that Teyla was put in his reality because she had no memories of Earth of her own, John said that he thought she was real. But since he was manipulating all the information she was being given about Earth, it would have been hard to tell.

And if Elizabeth was envisioning her fondest wishes, isn't it a logical 'jump' to think that John could be envisioning his at that point?

If that is the case, then it seems that John wouldn't have voluntarily even placed Teyla into his own 'vision' (as the 'mist' forced that) and that even with her *forced* into his vision and with her dressing skimpily and finding himself totally alone with her that neither Teyla nor he could keep his mind off of Elizabeth long enough to even begin to think about pursuing anything more personal between them. I guess 'Home' shows us that John's true fantasy has little to do with wealth or parties or cute chicks in skimpy clothing and more to do with his inner desire to connect with that one special person that he can't forget about no matter what.

I think that's a good point about this episode. John's spending all this time alone with a beautiful woman who he purportedly has some interest in – at the least, I don't think anyone would find it odd if he were interested in her – but all the time that he's with her, he's as far away from her as possible. Teyla tries to get him to relax a little while they're in the apartment, but he's thinking of Elizabeth. And Elizabeth is the one person whom the mist reality can't provide him, as it established for him that she had stayed behind on Atlantis.

And I think you're also right to say that John doesn't want wealth or praise or the attention of cute girls. He wants family – he wants a place to call home. He wants people who are dependable, people who will stand up for him and by him through the tough times. And goodness knows we've seen him go through a lot of tough times.

[Melyanna]

Mel, i love this. I really do. I think it speaks volumes towards their relationship. I think when they were first getting to know each other, and when you consider their first altercation in Rising, that perhaps they started expecting not to get along and for them to grate all the time. But the more time they spent together working issues out over the city, they started to see the real person and where their decisions come from.

On some level, I think the writers expected them not to get along well, but... as usual, it comes down to the phenomenal chemistry these two have. Even when they're screaming at each other, there's an undercurrent that says that these two are kindred spirits, and they really are on the same side.

And that's where the War and Peace scene from Home comes into play. I know there were some who thought Sheppard was being rude and condescending in it, but I didn't. I thought they were sort of testing the waters with each other. It was like they were wanting to ask if the other had left someone behind on Earth. And it's also significant because it's the first time Elizabeth sees John in some light other than that which his job in the city casts on him. He's a pilot, he's got the Ancient gene, he's good at math... and he's reading Russian literature. It's been my experience that people who start reading Russian literature are generally pretty well-read to begin with, so I think that was a clue to Elizabeth that there's a lot more to John than meets the eye.

[Royal_Nonesuch]

And I think you're also right to say that John doesn't want wealth or praise or the attention of cute girls. He wants family –*he wants a place to call home. He wants people who are dependable, people who will stand up for him and by him through the tough times. And goodness knows we've seen him go through a lot of tough times.

Great point Mel--I think John really does want "family". Hopefully "Epiphany" will give us plenty of background on that part of John's personality.

Great discussion about "Home" today. As for John's vision, I think part of the reason only Teyla was in John's reality is because John will not allow himself to imagine Weir in any way besides "leader" out of respect and or he thinks she is so committed that he could not imagine her anywhere but Atlantis. Or , the final interpetation for me tonight lol, Shep realized there was something wrong with his reality because he and Liz were not together. I do think Mel is right, Shep looked right at Weir when he talked about possible "scenarios".

"Home", it seemed to me, was about John and Liz finiding each other. They knew that their realities were skewed because they were not together in Atlantis. I think Mel commented earlier today that TPTB seem to be making episode "pairs"--I definitely think "Home" pairs right up with "Intruder".

Night all,

Royal

[Athenaktt]

And that's where the War and Peace scene from Home comes into play. I know there were some who thought Sheppard was being rude and condescending in it, but I didn't. I thought they were sort of testing the waters with each other. It was like they were wanting to ask if the other had left someone behind on Earth. And it's also significant because it's the first time Elizabeth sees John in some light other than that which his job in the city casts on him. He's a pilot, he's got the Ancient gene, he's good at math... and he's reading Russian literature. It's been my experience that people who start reading Russian literature are generally pretty well-read to begin with, so I think that was a clue to Elizabeth that there's a lot more to John than meets the eye.

As for people reading Russian Literature being generally well-read, I have to agree with you there. Not many people want to pick up Russian Literature like War and Peace just for fun. That reminds me I'm 150 pages into it (only 1,400 more pages to go!) and I've had the book for a month already.

I would add to the 'Home' conversation, but I'd only be repeating what everyone else has already said. And right now my brain is on "Firefly"/Serenity mode.

As for the "Scenarios" that John mention, I'm curious to what they might have been, but we'll never know, not in canon at least. Now that I think about it, he probably didn't have Elizabeth in his "vision" because in that 'reality' Elizabeth was back in Atlantis. Like Mel said he was testing the reality with the whole Limo, bacherlor pad, teyla's outfit...so I guess it didn't cross his mind to try that, at least not at that time.

But now that I really think about it (which is probably a very bad idea when I'm tired) So in John's fabricated reality, He, Teyla, and Ford were the ones that came back to "Earth"? But why even send Ford along with Sheppard back, when he isn't a ranking military or lead scientist? So maybe, Ford never came back to "Earth" in Sheppard's reality, which leads to the line "I'm beginning to have my doubts about you too, Lieutenant." when the flaws of the reality were being revealed.

So that got me to thinking...if his fabricated reality lasted longer and didn't turn chaotic, I would like to think that he might have eventually tried to bring Elizabeth into that reality in some way, shape, or form just to be sure the reality was complete fake...not that the dead friends were a dead give away.

[juju77]

Hey guys ! I've been lurking for a long time, just before the beginning of my studies, but you guys have some very interesting thoughts !!!!!!!!!!!!!
But, I still have a question, and it's not a good one... If Elizabeth begin to show her feelings about John (eps : Conversion, where she is here for him, I'm particularly thinking of the scene with Caldwell... ; TLB, where she worries about him etc...) Perharps I'm blind, but I do not see John expressing his feelings to her !!!!!!!! Has someone sees something that I didn't see ? Am I realy blind ?!
It's not in order to disturb people, but I've seen all the ep and I can't find any clues. My opinion is that he does not authorize himself to have any feelings for his boss (more than friendship, so LOVE !!!!!!!!!!!!!) because it's her boss, and it must be new for him because he is the cocky flyboy and before he got all the girl he wanted but with her it's kinda different !
Hope my english is not so bad and that you can understand what i'm thinking.
Juss

[gwenhwyfar]

Athenaktt-You're reading War and Peace? For fun or an assignment? I've honestly never thought of reading it. I'm not much for classics. But I do love Shakespeare and I've read Jules Verne.

About John's vision: I agree that there was no J/T in the episode. He had no interest in her no matter how scantilly clad she was. I'd add more but like Athenaktt's mind is in Firefly mode mine is in Commander-in-Chief mode. Geena Davis did a great job! I'm actually going to watch it now instead of House.

juju77- There have been hints. You just have to know what to look for. Like the birthday gift in BIS. Or how he reacted to her "death" in The Storm/The Eye.
He might not allow himself to have feelings for his boss, but he does. He probably was able to have a lot of girls but not ones like Elizabeth (really smart, sofisticated) so he is kinda afraid of how she would react to his feelings. In reverse, Elizabeth has probably never been attracted to a guy like John before. So she's kinda afraid.
That's how I see it anyway.

And your English is fine. Better than mine when I'm tired.

[Hatcheter]

I think that's a good point about this episode. John's spending all this time alone with a beautiful woman who he purportedly has some interest in – at the least, I don't think anyone would find it odd if he were interested in her – but all the time that he's with her, he's as far away from her as possible. Teyla tries to get him to relax a little while they're in the apartment, but he's thinking of Elizabeth. And Elizabeth is the one person whom the mist reality can't provide him, as it established for him that she had stayed behind on Atlantis.

Forgive me if I throw a wet blanket on this discussion. Just wanted to share my analysis of the situation.

It had been pointed out once, on another thread, that Sheppard had likely already identified that something strange was going on before they even left the SGC. By the time Sheppard and Teyla had reached his "house", he knew things were very, very wrong. Everything he was seeing, expect perhaps for Teyla herself, was a lie. They were in an unknown situation, potentially the prisoners of an unknown enemy.

Teyla at least was with him, so he could keep an eye on her, but his other three teammates are unaccounted for. To his mind, Ford is a Marine, and ought to be able to take care of himself. McKay could find trouble in an empty paper bag, so there's no point worrying about him. So it would be natural that Elizabeth is the one he's most concerned about. Out of the five, she's the one with the least travel experience, and is perhaps the least equipped to get herself out of danger.

For the most part, I think Sheppard's actions are recon, trying to figure out where he is and what is going on. Once he got some sort of an understanding of the situation, he made his move, forcing their captors' hand.


So, his thoughts are mostly centered on "save Elizabeth". Basically the same train of thought he had in 'The Storm', 'The Eye', and 'Hot Zone'.

[SapphireJewelledQueen]

Ah, guys? Do you all realise that we have almost hit 10,000 posts??

Not that that is really a surprise I guess...after all, there is a lot to "discuss".. (especially after Conversion! )

I love all the opinions on Home that I've read. I must admit that I have never looked that far into an episode, but I guess I'll have to watch them all again.