Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[hopalong]

That wallpaper is lovely!

Thank you. No new ones tonight, though, Image Shack is acting funny.

I love TRW, but I can't remember what my first impressions were, because I was spoiled for it (deliberately, I had no way of knowing when I'd get to see the ep)

[Falcon Horus]

...with this ship I see a lot of Sam/Jack in it.

I sincerely hate that ship with a vengeance and prefer Kate/Teyla John/Elizabeth far above it. Personally, I feel J/E is nothing like S/J... were that the case I wouldn't be playing in this thread like I am now.

[AnnaBee]

Over the summer I had watched the episodes of Stargate Atlantis, with this ship I see a lot of Sam/Jack in it. The Real World was a good one also the one were john gets stuck in a time portal can't remember the name. On another note I know this is coming kind of late, but is it just me that ever since Ghost in the Machine episode John has been acting like his old self again, he kind of lost it in season four, but bringing it back in season five. The old self is that I mean sarcastic comments, risk taking, caring more about team members, it like he is coming out of his bubble he has been in for a while, that episode seemed to be the catalyst.
With the FranWeir I still not quite sure what to think, but I thinking it was not Elizabeth, because of certain theme music for the character. I kind of agree with Woolsey that the replicators altered her conscienous. Also the Ausurans are always trying to prove they are human, but they are still machines. This is what I feel so far about this whole story line.

I can't say I see Sparky as parallelling Sam/Jack...but that may be because I don't ship S/J. Rabidly so.
Did replibeth really have a different theme to Elizabeth? I haven't seen the ep (and don't pay all that much attention to the music anyway), but did anyone else notice this?

I sincerely hate that ship with a vengeance and prefer Kate/Teyla John/Elizabeth far above it. Personally, I feel J/E is nothing like S/J... were that the case I wouldn't be playing in this thread like I am now.

Here here. But IMHO it's probably best not to go into that here, 'cos I know there are people who do 'ship them...and my opinions might be seen as overly critical by them. Wouldn't want to go dividing the Sparkies over it.

[Anuna]

Over the summer I had watched the episodes of Stargate Atlantis, with this ship I see a lot of Sam/Jack in it. The Real World was a good one also the one were john gets stuck in a time portal can't remember the name. On another note I know this is coming kind of late, but is it just me that ever since Ghost in the Machine episode John has been acting like his old self again, he kind of lost it in season four, but bringing it back in season five. The old self is that I mean sarcastic comments, risk taking, caring more about team members, it like he is coming out of his bubble he has been in for a while, that episode seemed to be the catalyst.
With the FranWeir I still not quite sure what to think, but I thinking it was not Elizabeth, because of certain theme music for the character. I kind of agree with Woolsey that the replicators altered her conscienous. Also the Ausurans are always trying to prove they are human, but they are still machines. This is what I feel so far about this whole story line.

Hmmm... it's not like Elizabeth has a recognizable music theme like Darth Vader, so I don't think the music should have been the hint to tell us "hey this is not really Elizabeth we're doing TMC again". That would be lame, but then again TPTW are very capable of doing extremely lame things. There were other and IMO much important signs to tell us, yes this really is Elizabeth (but I guess it will always be a matter of debate because of a different actress). You could say this isn't her because of the way she acted, endangered Atlantis and attacked other replicator, but in the first case she was desperate and lonely and in second case she was saving John's life. She also used the exact words he used in "The Eye"; there were some other things like that, but in Rodney's words - the way she sacrificed herself (and I'm really tired of Elizabeth the scapegoat plot device) leaves pretty much little doubt if that is really her.

Are Replicators just machines? Hard to say, especially when it comes to Elizabeth. To me she is the most human character in SGA, so reducing her to mere machine.... not something I would say lightly.

Also, John's reactions toward her were something significant, and make me believe even more so FraniBeth is really Elizabeth (and yes he needs to save her, damn it).

Also, I've heard many different things about seasons 4 and 5, but most people seem to agree on one thing and that is John being different, darker, sadder and distant. He came out of his bubble? Did he? This is something I hear for the very first time, and loosing Elizabeth (again) being the catalyst? Even if you don't ship them and think of them as friends, loosing someone you were close to as John is to Elizabeth wouldn't exactly lead the person out of their bubble. So this is either another example of aforementioned badwritingbadwritingbadwriting or .... I don't know what, but being happy and cheery after you just lost someone (again) doesn't make much sense to me.

[Pajus]

Hmmm... it's not like Elizabeth has a recognizable music theme like Darth Vader, so I don't think the music should have been the hint to tell us "hey this is not really Elizabeth we're doing TMC again". That would be lame, but then again TPTW are very capable of doing extremely lame things. There were other and IMO much important signs to tell us, yes this really is Elizabeth (but I guess it will always be a matter of debate because of a different actress). You could say this isn't her because of the way she acted, endangered Atlantis and attacked other replicator, but in the first case she was desperate and lonely and in second case she was saving John's life. She also used the exact words he used in "The Eye"; there were some other things like that, but in Rodney's words - the way she sacrificed herself (and I'm really tired of Elizabeth the scapegoat plot device) leaves pretty much little doubt if that is really her.

Are Replicators just machines? Hard to say, especially when it comes to Elizabeth. To me she is the most human character in SGA, so reducing her to mere machine.... not something I would say lightly.

Also, John's reactions toward her were something significant, and make me believe even more so FraniBeth is really Elizabeth (and yes he needs to save her, damn it).

Also, I've heard many different things about seasons 4 and 5, but most people seem to agree on one thing and that is John being different, darker, sadder and distant. He came out of his bubble? Did he? This is something I hear for the very first time, and loosing Elizabeth (again) being the catalyst? Even if you don't ship them and think of them as friends, loosing someone you were close to as John is to Elizabeth wouldn't exactly lead the person out of their bubble. So this is either another example of aforementioned badwritingbadwritingbadwriting or .... I don't know what, but being happy and cheery after you just lost someone (again) doesn't make much sense to me.

Unless you had someone to make you cheery and happy... maybe?

[Eri13]

I think Elizabeth does have a music theme, though, doesn't she? That little soft theme, it starts out as a piano solo...I don't remember when it first popped up but it appears in TRW...it's present in other Elizabeth scenes, too. Like I think it's in Adrift/Lifeline, TMC and actually, you hear it at the end of GITM. Is that used anywhere else, or only with Elizabeth?

Here's a link to a YouTube video someone capped of it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpy5lA_eYaM

[Torri012]

flipping hell, that thread did many posts since i was last online *O.o*
you guys have been soo busy. i fear i cant catch up with you...

anyway, for those who do not read LJ, here my new video....




Series: Stargate Atlantis
Couple: Sheppard/Weir
Song: Theme of BBCs North & South
Lengh: 0.51 mins
Spoiler: up to Season 3

Watch it on Youbube!

[Southern Red]

Hmmm... it's not like Elizabeth has a recognizable music theme like Darth Vader, so I don't think the music should have been the hint to tell us "hey this is not really Elizabeth we're doing TMC again". That would be lame, but then again TPTW are very capable of doing extremely lame things. There were other and IMO much important signs to tell us, yes this really is Elizabeth (but I guess it will always be a matter of debate because of a different actress). You could say this isn't her because of the way she acted, endangered Atlantis and attacked other replicator, but in the first case she was desperate and lonely and in second case she was saving John's life. She also used the exact words he used in "The Eye"; there were some other things like that, but in Rodney's words - the way she sacrificed herself (and I'm really tired of Elizabeth the scapegoat plot device) leaves pretty much little doubt if that is really her.

Are Replicators just machines? Hard to say, especially when it comes to Elizabeth. To me she is the most human character in SGA, so reducing her to mere machine.... not something I would say lightly.

Also, John's reactions toward her were something significant, and make me believe even more so FraniBeth is really Elizabeth (and yes he needs to save her, damn it).

Also, I've heard many different things about seasons 4 and 5, but most people seem to agree on one thing and that is John being different, darker, sadder and distant. He came out of his bubble? Did he? This is something I hear for the very first time, and loosing Elizabeth (again) being the catalyst? Even if you don't ship them and think of them as friends, loosing someone you were close to as John is to Elizabeth wouldn't exactly lead the person out of their bubble. So this is either another example of aforementioned badwritingbadwritingbadwriting or .... I don't know what, but being happy and cheery after you just lost someone (again) doesn't make much sense to me.

*points at Anuna* What she said. I can't do better. I've watched all of S4-5 and have repeatedly reported here that John is acting different in every single episode. He is not himself. He has not returned to S1-3 John. He's never stopped being snarky, but now he doesn't give it much umph if that makes sense. He's just sleepwalking a lot of the time and only comes alive when he's shooting something. He's still desperately trying to save the friends he has left but doesn't seem to get much joy out of life. A few times when he's been teasing people you see a little spark of the old John, but most of the time he seems to be trying too hard. In Tracker,

Spoiler:

there was a cute moment at the end with the little girl in the infirmary when he seemed to make a real connection with her over telling her he'd have Rodney removed if he was annoying her. JF and kids are just love. And there was also a similar moment at the end of The Queen with both Keller and Teyla where he said "what have you done to her?" to Keller. I caught a similar brotherly vibe with both of them.

For the most part, he's doing some of the same things but his eyes don't reflect the scamp underneath like they used to. The last scene in TRW comes to mind. Look at the teasing there with Elizabeth and then look at any similar scene with any character in S4-5. No comparison. Just my analysis.

flipping hell, that thread did many posts since i was last online *O.o*
you guys have been soo busy. i fear i cant catch up with you...

anyway, for those who do not read LJ, here my new video....




Series: Stargate Atlantis
Couple: Sheppard/Weir
Song: Theme of BBCs North & South
Lengh: 0.51 mins
Spoiler: up to Season 3

Watch it on Youbube!

I watched and left a comment. Great vid.

[Falcon Horus]

Here here. But IMHO it's probably best not to go into that here, 'cos I know there are people who do 'ship them...and my opinions might be seen as overly critical by them. Wouldn't want to go dividing the Sparkies over it.

Well, various people with various ships - almost all have a thread of their own (I'm not starting mine cause that would sink into the GW depths of oblivion like ... wow ...the sad truth). But I wasn't going to go in depth. I promise.

[SMB_BOOKS]

I think Elizabeth does have a music theme, though, doesn't she? That little soft theme, it starts out as a piano solo...I don't remember when it first popped up but it appears in TRW...it's present in other Elizabeth scenes, too. Like I think it's in Adrift/Lifeline, TMC and actually, you hear it at the end of GITM. Is that used anywhere else, or only with Elizabeth?

Here's a link to a YouTube video someone capped of it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpy5lA_eYaM

Sniff, I just watched this and it made me sad. The power of music.....

WAAAHHHHH - I want my Elizabeth back!

[Snookie16]

I think Elizabeth does have a music theme, though, doesn't she? That little soft theme, it starts out as a piano solo...I don't remember when it first popped up but it appears in TRW...it's present in other Elizabeth scenes, too. Like I think it's in Adrift/Lifeline, TMC and actually, you hear it at the end of GITM. Is that used anywhere else, or only with Elizabeth?

Here's a link to a YouTube video someone capped of it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpy5lA_eYaM

[/I] It also happens in Before I Sleep too.

I can't say I see Sparky as parallelling Sam/Jack...but that may be because I don't ship S/J. Rabidly so.
Did replibeth really have a different theme to Elizabeth? I haven't seen the ep (and don't pay all that much attention to the music anyway), but did anyone else notice this?


Here here. But IMHO it's probably best not to go into that here, 'cos I know there are people who do 'ship them...and my opinions might be seen as overly critical by them. Wouldn't want to go dividing the Sparkies over it.

I should of expanded more on what I meant, I see alot of parallels, but there are differences in the relationship.

Hmmm... it's not like Elizabeth has a recognizable music theme like Darth Vader, so I don't think the music should have been the hint to tell us "hey this is not really Elizabeth we're doing TMC again". That would be lame, but then again TPTW are very capable of doing extremely lame things. There were other and IMO much important signs to tell us, yes this really is Elizabeth (but I guess it will always be a matter of debate because of a different actress). You could say this isn't her because of the way she acted, endangered Atlantis and attacked other replicator, but in the first case she was desperate and lonely and in second case she was saving John's life. She also used the exact words he used in "The Eye"; there were some other things like that, but in Rodney's words - the way she sacrificed herself (and I'm really tired of Elizabeth the scapegoat plot device) leaves pretty much little doubt if that is really her.

Are Replicators just machines? Hard to say, especially when it comes to Elizabeth. To me she is the most human character in SGA, so reducing her to mere machine.... not something I would say lightly.

Also, John's reactions toward her were something significant, and make me believe even more so FraniBeth is really Elizabeth (and yes he needs to save her, damn it).

Also, I've heard many different things about seasons 4 and 5, but most people seem to agree on one thing and that is John being different, darker, sadder and distant. He came out of his bubble? Did he? This is something I hear for the very first time, and loosing Elizabeth (again) being the catalyst? Even if you don't ship them and think of them as friends, loosing someone you were close to as John is to Elizabeth wouldn't exactly lead the person out of their bubble. So this is either another example of aforementioned badwritingbadwritingbadwriting or .... I don't know what, but being happy and cheery after you just lost someone (again) doesn't make much sense to me.

This is just the musical side of me about the theme, and I break down the technicallity ever since I did a film studies class in High School. As for GitM episode it may of played a little in it, but it was not that distiquisable for me. Every time I watch GitM I get something different, it just my opinion, but I still not convinced it was the real elizabeth, but if you read my quote on the GitM thread you see more of where I am coming from. I know that replicators are supposed to be machines, but in Elizabeth's case she is both. I really got people going with my qoute.

[Eri13]

We need to have some fun with The Real World, since it's one of our token episodes. Everyone who's swung by to check out the discussion and isn't a regular, welcome, and please feel free to participate!

Anyone who has ideas for other games, etc, we can play with "The Real World", please let me know.

Discussion Questions

1) Were you fooled at all by Elizabeth's replicator-induced dream? What did you initially believe was going on?

2) What did you think of Elizabeth's Mom, presuming the replicator version was pretty close to the real thing?

3) John's 'shadow' image appears almost menacing in Elizabeth's mind...why do you think that is?

4) Back in the infirmary, John maintains a steady, fairly calm presence, though he's obviously worried. Did you like his reaction and his manner?

5) Did you like Richard Dean Anderson's cameos in this episode?

6) Was John's action in breaking isolation atypical of John in trying to save someone he cares about? Standard operating procedure for him? More reckless?

7) How would you characterize Elizabeth's attitude in the final scene? John's?

8) In a show that is basically non-ship, this episode is a pretty darn powerful argument for, at the very least, an Elizabeth/John relationship that goes deeper than an administrative partnership. How do you think it made it out of the writer's room?

9) Do you think this episode 'canonizes' Sparky? If not, where is it canonized for you?

10) Is there anything you would have liked to add to TRW to make it better? What?

[Eri13]

[/I] It also happens in Before I Sleep too. ^snip

Thanks! So then it really IS Elizabeth's theme!

[Southern Red]

1) Were you fooled at all by Elizabeth's replicator-induced dream? What did you initially believe was going on?
I don't remember being fooled. I think I had read enough spoilers to know it wasn't real. And also it was a pretty standard plot device.

2) What did you think of Elizabeth's Mom, presuming the replicator version was pretty close to the real thing?
I thought she was a bit stereotypical and wasn't right as Elizabeth's mom. She could have been my mom. lol I picture Mrs. Weir as being more worldly and sophisticated. Maybe someone who was ahead of her time like a lawyer or doctor. Yet on the other hand, I can see someone who wanted her daughter to have a career that she was denied and would have pushed her in that direction. Maybe a teacher or nurse. Maybe just my generation kicking in. lol

3) John's 'shadow' image appears almost menacing in Elizabeth's mind...why do you think that is?

I was never totally sure. Maybe her need to believe she was living in reality and to believe the simple answers the doctors were giving her made any outside influence scary. She didn't recognize him as John at first, and later when she did he became less menacing.

4) Back in the infirmary, John maintains a steady, fairly calm presence, though he's obviously worried. Did you like his reaction and his manner?
I loved John in this. His singlemindedness was amazing. He seldom even took his eyes off her. It was beyond my wildest dreams and you could see that he believed he could help her.

5) Did you like Richard Dean Anderson's cameos in this episode?
Yes, it was Jack but not Jack. He had a slightly sinister edge to him. The dress uniform and Jack looking comfortable in it was the first giveaway that it wasn't really him. He said all the right things and didn't crack enough jokes. Good job by RDA.

6) Was John's action in breaking isolation atypical of John in trying to save someone he cares about? Standard operating procedure for him? More reckless?
It was probably one of the most reckless things he has ever done. Every other time he had risked his life to save someone there had been a chance of coming through it without injury. Usually it involved his military training in some way or he could combine his brains and firepower to get through it. This time he was sure to be infected and he basically threw himself on a grenade for her. In addition it seemed that somehow he knew he was the only one who could reach her mentally. Almost like he thought sheer willpower could save her. The mental connection between them had never been more apparent.

7) How would you characterize Elizabeth's attitude in the final scene? John's?
Elizabeth seemed a little distracted in that scene to me. Understandable I guess. She didn't know what John had gone through during that time and he wasn't about to tell her. She seemed almost insensitive to him but again she had no idea what he had gone through. She was still trying to reorient herself to reality. It must have been a bit like John after Epiphany.
John was acting like anyone does who has just come through an ordeal unscathed. You want to be giddy like a kid but have to contain yourself so you end up making lame jokes. His eyes were twinkling there and it was like he was about to bubble over with happiness. He seemed to just want to keep checking on her to reassure himself that she was really okay. I'm willing to bet he came back again later or went to her room to check on her. Instinctively he would know she couldn't sleep or was afraid to try.

Seeing John here makes his devastation after losing her for real all the more obvious.

8) In a show that is basically non-ship, this episode is a pretty darn powerful argument for, at the very least, an Elizabeth/John relationship that goes deeper than an administrative partnership. How do you think it made it out of the writer's room?
I have often wondered what they intended. Was it a trial balloon? Did the negative reaction by the very vocal opposing shipper groups influence them to not take it further? Did they see something we didn't? Who knows? There have been many times that they say they intended one thing and it comes across completely different on screen. The ship nonsense in Sunday comes to mind. Maybe they were shocked, shocked that anyone would see this as shippy. Why, he would have done this for anyone. lol And maybe he would have, but I think it was the mental connection that makes it special.

9) Do you think this episode 'canonizes' Sparky? If not, where is it canonized for you?
It depends on how you define 'canon'. If a ship has to be spoken aloud or actual dating occur like some of the recent McKeller scenes, then no. But if the obvious connection both in look and action makes everyone aware that 2 characters care about each other then I think it became canon sometime in S1. Maybe with TS/TE.

10) Is there anything you would have liked to add to TRW to make it better? What?
I wanted her to thank John for what he did. And it would have been nice if he told her how much he would miss her or how devastated he felt when he thought he would lose her. But I'm never satisfied.

[Wormhole]

Thanks! So then it really IS Elizabeth's theme!

Be interesting if it is. I never thought of it as Weir’s theme either. It might say on a CD soundtrack if anyone has it?