Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Southern Red]

Right...Lorne was the one Missing...so we have:

Lorne, Caldwell and Rodders

Wasn't Beckett also on the list after Conversion? I thought there were 5 at one time? Who else? Cut out the senile cracks you youngsters. After The Hive ending

Spoiler:

maybe we can add Chuck the technician?

[Dorka]

Wasn't Beckett also on the list after Conversion? I thought there were 5 at one time? Who else? Cut out the senile cracks you youngsters. After The Hive ending

Spoiler:

maybe we can add Chuck the technician?

If I really think about it...we can add everyone to the list, with exception of Ronon and Ford *coughs*

[Vixen]

TLG

Spoiler:

What is more telling with relation to real UST between Sheppard and Weir is the fact that he allowed himself to be imprinted and that Weir assented for him to be the host. That says to me much more of how they see their relationship... how far they've come in order to inhabit this kind of intimate space. They are afterall allowing themselves to be hosts to a husband and wife, and as the others indicated... anything could possibly once they allow their bodies to be used in the most intimate of relationships.

Indeed.

Spoiler:

Who knows what they (Thalan and Phoebus) could have had in mind (before the truth surfaced).
Though Elizabeth didn't seem very uncomfortable about asking John... or was that just Phoebus being too good of an actress

Phoebus was very determent in finishing Thalan off so then why did she pick John to be Thalan's host? Holding him in her view longer than the others after she woke up and then asking the 'favor'. Was it that she enjoyed the chase more than the kill as some suggested earlier? If she read Elizabeth's mind then Phoebus must have been aware that John knew the city just as well as Elizabeth and that could make the chase more challenging. Did John remind her of Thalan in some ways?
But since her people lost the war and this was Phoebus's chance to maybe change that and shift the victory over on her side? So then, wouldn't it have made more sense to pick someone who is easier to catch and kill?

Or does it come down to Phoebus needing a worthy challenger?

[The wicked Witch]

Spoiler:

I think Phoebus didn't want it to be too easy. At one point, she wants Thalan to look at her while she kills him... I guess it was just not possible for her to kill him as an old man lying in a pod. She wanted the pride of defeating him and she wanted him to be aware of the defeat. she said she wanted to see the look in his eyes... why choosing John ? This has to be the Elizabeth part pushing a bit, since she must consider Shep the best warrior of the city !

[Erised]

Spoiler:

I think Phoebus didn't want it to be too easy. At one point, she wants Thalan to look at her while she kills him... I guess it was just not possible for her to kill him as an old man lying in a pod. She wanted the pride of defeating him and she wanted him to be aware of the defeat. she said she wanted to see the look in his eyes... why choosing John ? This has to be the Elizabeth part pushing a bit, since she must consider Shep the best warrior of the city !

Spoiler:

You know, I thought so too. But Elizabeth must have known what Phoebus was up to. She wanted to kill her enemy and win the war. I don't think that Elizabeth would want to put her love at risk. SO probably she was kicking and screaming for Phoebus not to choose John, and she did anyway, because, well, she's mean!

Vixen

Spoiler:

We only saw Elizabeth when she was standing over Phoebus and the end in the infirmary (eeh...at least Caldwell thought so, and I think so to). It was Phoebus in the infirmary. She put up an impressive act

Which I thought was a reference to Torri's amazing acting, but it may be just my imagination

[The wicked Witch]

Spoiler:

Sure but she might have given the information to Phoebus about Shep's fighting skills without intending to... I mean, if Phoebus had access to Elizabeth's thoughts... But she's mean, you're right...

[Bama]

To me

Spoiler:

this whole kissing business is not an indicator of shippyness because it is done in the context of a alien possession as was the whole Conversion scenario. While it is fun, it is ambiguous... It's not a sure sign of any real, deep-seated feelings. There have been a lot of kissing in S2 and none of which has been "real" or heartfelt. In this instance, all it tells us is that the alien entities having similar mating rituals. What is more telling with relation to real UST between Sheppard and Weir is the fact that he allowed himself to be imprinted and that Weir assented for him to be the host. That says to me much more of how they see their relationship... how far they've come in order to inhabit this kind of intimate space. They are afterall allowing themselves to be hosts to a husband and wife, and as the others indicated... anything could possibly once they allow their bodies to be used in the most intimate of relationships.
Also I take heart in the ending. They were both suitably sheepish, which was a good sign that this occasion brought a lot of hidden things to the surface. No apology either, unlike Conversion... and they behaved as if they were naughty children who were found out.

Spoiler:

The AU kiss, imo, was very important to the future 'tone' of the SWR. I think it was very important for Shep. He finally had the chance to see himself and Elizabeth engage in a male to female sexual act of conduct. This is a 'place' that I think he'd refused to or tried not to think about in regard to Elizabeth. But now, he's 'been there' and it's almost better in a way that it was against his will as it nullified his fear of ruining his current relationship with Elizabeth. It gives them both a bone to 'chew on'. It shows the one aspect of the fullness of their relationship that had gone untouched until that moment. Luz had a wonderful post on this several pages back. I do agree that as a current true shippy! moment, it wasn't 'real' so it wasn't as important as it would have been otherwise but sometimes, it's about the potentials being shown to those involved. It's about 'eye-opening' and new awareness for them. The 'hug' cracked the door open to the full possibilities between them. This AU kiss blew it off it's hinges.

I do like what you're saying about the 'true' *now* shippy moments in the episode and I heartily agree. The fact that they willingly *choose* each other is very telling. The fact that John calls Elizabeth a 'romantic' and admits to being a 'romantic' himself is incredibly interesting.

John has never come across like a 'guy' that truly wants just one thing from a woman. He just doesn't fit the playboy type that his looks and occupation seem to force him into. He 'fit' that world in 'home' terribly. Teyla fit in that apartment and bachelor pad better than he did! John is *looking* for more-he just doesn't know exactly what 'more' is when he sees it yet.

[Southern Red]

Spoiler:

I think Phoebus didn't want it to be too easy. At one point, she wants Thalan to look at her while she kills him... I guess it was just not possible for her to kill him as an old man lying in a pod. She wanted the pride of defeating him and she wanted him to be aware of the defeat. she said she wanted to see the look in his eyes... why choosing John ? This has to be the Elizabeth part pushing a bit, since she must consider Shep the best warrior of the city !

TLG idea

Spoiler:

Or maybe Phoebus thought John would never allow Thalan to kill Elizabeth or she knew about some weakness in Thalan that once he knew John's thoughts wouldn't kill Elizabeth. Maybe that doesn't make sense. Either way it's just thrilling that J/E have all these memories of the intense feelings that T/P had for each other. Hate yeah, but intense nonetheless.

Some of you were talking earlier about the wakeup scene. So it looks like John woke up first and got someone to fetch his PDA on the pretext that he's been out of commission for awhile and as military commander he just had to know what was going on. Duty and all that. Meanwhile Eliz sleeps through it all. He's lying there tapping away, probably bugging people to death and waiting for her to wake up. Which he notices as soon as her breathing changes. Concentrating much? I imagine a little voice is screaming in John's head much the same way he was screaming in Thalan's. OMG, OMG, how are we going to handle this? Badword, badword, badword! His body language at the very end which is the only part I've seen reminds me of the balcony scene in TT. Tentative glances, darting eyes. Man is this guy nervous? Reminds me of some sixth grade boy asking a girl to the sock hop...er disco...erwhat? So, evidently she wakes up and starts talking nervously just like a typical female and he tries to ignore her. He knew that PDA would come in handy. He just really does not want to get into the specifics of this, and if messaging half of Atlantis will stop him from thinking about it, he's all for it. Bless Colonel Skinner. Now they've been forced to acknowledge to each other what happened, but how much you want to bet they'll ignore it from here on out? Now if the writers do their job , there will be some nice awkwardness between them in the future. Big if.

[Bama]

Spoiler:

You know, I thought so too. But Elizabeth must have known what Phoebus was up to. She wanted to kill her enemy and win the war. I don't think that Elizabeth would want to put her love at risk. SO probably she was kicking and screaming for Phoebus not to choose John, and she did anyway, because, well, she's mean!

Vixen

Spoiler:

We only saw Elizabeth when she was standing over Phoebus and the end in the infirmary (eeh...at least Caldwell thought so, and I think so to). It was Phoebus in the infirmary. She put up an impressive act

Which I thought was a reference to Torri's amazing acting, but it may be just my imagination

I know this is a bit OT, but you guys got me to thinking about that last scene.

Spoiler:

Elizabeth is purely embarrassed about the forced kiss he reminds them of but Caldwell's last line to them, "try not to kill each other" had to hurt like hell to her and I think that's reflected in her face a little at the end as the weight of it almost sinks her down into the pillow. Her worst fear would be to kill anyone but John? She had to watch as her body lost control and tried to KILL the man she cares most about in the world?! That's freaking horrible! This is the beginning imo of what is to come for she and John. Doubt in herself will begin to creep in and she is headed for personal crisis. John is her support and she his and this ep's events are a foreshadowing of how events out of their control will strain their trust and belief in each other I think. Caldwell, as the choice to end the scene looked down at the 'injured' two of them was no mistake. I think he's a catalyst to drive a wedge between them still. Every event, including TLG's kiss and killing spree attempt, will change the ever growing dynamic and personal relationship between john and elizabeth. It's up to them and how much they truly care for each other as to how they re-find and re-construct themselves together.

[mentalmichael]

TLG idea

Spoiler:

Or maybe Phoebus thought John would never allow Thalan to kill Elizabeth or she knew about some weakness in Thalan that once he knew John's thoughts wouldn't kill Elizabeth. Maybe that doesn't make sense. Either way it's just thrilling that J/E have all these memories of the intense feelings that T/P had for each other. Hate yeah, but intense nonetheless.

Some of you were talking earlier about the wakeup scene. So it looks like John woke up first and got someone to fetch his PDA on the pretext that he's been out of commission for awhile and as military commander he just had to know what was going on. Duty and all that. Meanwhile Eliz sleeps through it all. He's lying there tapping away, probably bugging people to death and waiting for her to wake up. Which he notices as soon as her breathing changes. Concentrating much? I imagine a little voice is screaming in John's head much the same way he was screaming in Thalan's. OMG, OMG, how are we going to handle this? Badword, badword, badword! His body language at the very end which is the only part I've seen reminds me of the balcony scene in TT. Tentative glances, darting eyes. Man is this guy nervous? Reminds me of some sixth grade boy asking a girl to the sock hop...er disco...erwhat? So, evidently she wakes up and starts talking nervously just like a typical female and he tries to ignore her. He knew that PDA would come in handy. He just really does not want to get into the specifics of this, and if messaging half of Atlantis will stop him from thinking about it, he's all for it. Bless Colonel Skinner. Now they've been forced to acknowledge to each other what happened, but how much you want to bet they'll ignore it from here on out? Now if the writers do their job , there will be some nice awkwardness between them in the future. Big if.

Sock hop? what the heck is a sock hop?

Oh and Simple Hope, welcome back to the forum. Don't worry about the age thing, we have people of all ages and from all over the world (including many non-native English speakers who put my knowledge of foreign languages to shame). Also, whatever it was that you did that led to a mod stepping in must have been sometime in september/ october, which is like 10 years in forum time. So stay around!

[Dorka]

Spoiler:

Now if the writers do their job , there will be some nice awkwardness between them in the future. Big if.

I think, there will be a general change between the two now. It was there after the hug and after Conversion....they grew together more and more and become really a team. I'm even getting the feeling that it could turn out into too much of them being together as a team (not (yet) in a shippy-way) and debar the others a bit.

[Bama]

I find it reeeeally interesting that John avoids looking into Liz's eyes at times.

Spoiler:

The PDA obsessiveness was just the most obvious example (and he wasn't truthfully caught up in it, or he wouldn't have noticed the millisecond she woke up).

It's significant because this behavior goes against his usual nature of facing any issue head-on (like going to Teyla to apologize for kissing her in Conversion). I think he feels a little out of control around Liz. Like she can see right through him. Shep hasn't really opened up to anyone yet, and presumably doesn't have any family to write home to. If he'd let her in, hello, shippiness and backstory.

Just an excellent observation and point gator. I think definitely she puts him into a grey area that he finds himself floundering in. There's a UST current between them but there's also an emotional current between them that is practically tangible right along with it. GAH! I love, love sparky!

[Erised]

I know this is a bit OT, but you guys got me to thinking about that last scene.

Spoiler:

Elizabeth is purely embarrassed about the forced kiss he reminds them of but Caldwell's last line to them, "try not to kill each other" had to hurt like hell to her and I think that's reflected in her face a little at the end as the weight of it almost sinks her down into the pillow. Her worst fear would be to kill anyone but John? She had to watch as her body lost control and tried to KILL the man she cares most about in the world?! That's freaking horrible! This is the beginning imo of what is to come for she and John. Doubt in herself will begin to creep in and she is headed for personal crisis. John is her support and she his and this ep's events are a foreshadowing of how events out of their control will strain their trust and belief in each other I think. Caldwell, as the choice to end the scene looked down at the 'injured' two of them was no mistake. I think he's a catalyst to drive a wedge between them still. Every event, including TLG's kiss and killing spree attempt, will change the ever growing dynamic and personal relationship between john and elizabeth. It's up to them and how much they truly care for each other as to how they re-find and re-construct themselves together.

oh I haven't thought of that.

Spoiler:

But whether Elizabeth sank into her pillow because of embarrasement that her secret might have been let out, or whether she felt horrible because she was almost forced to kill the man she loved, the moment stays very sparky, and that's what matters. I think just that exact moment was more important, shippy-wise, than the kiss. Real Lizzie showed us her feelings, not the posessed one

[Bama]

oh I haven't thought of that.

Spoiler:

But whether Elizabeth sank into her pillow because of embarrasement that her secret might have been let out, or whether she felt horrible because she was almost forced to kill the man she loved, the moment stays very sparky, and that's what matters. I think just that exact moment was more important, shippy-wise, than the kiss. Real Lizzie showed us her feelings, not the posessed one

E, what's so great about Torri's acting is that she gave us *both*. You could clearly see a bit of discomfort and embarrassment as

Spoiler:

the 'kiss' was alluded to. It was clear as a bell that they both remembered how that felt quite well but unlike in conversion, neither was willing to 'take that on' yet. Such an intimate act between their bodies is too fresh and new and strange yet and the comfort level isn't there which of course, screams even more delicious and intense UST to come in the future between them. But, then as Caldwell tossed that last snarky line, you could see how Elizabeth's discomfort and embarrassment combined with a bit of sadness and unease as well.

Torri just is a flat out good facial actress and when you have those type of actors, you're better off to let their faces tell the story.

[Erised]

E, what's so great about Torri's acting is that she gave us *both*. You could clearly see a bit of discomfort and embarrassment as

Spoiler:

the 'kiss' was alluded to. It was clear as a bell that they both remembered how that felt quite well but unlike in conversion, neither was willing to 'take that on' yet. Such an intimate act between their bodies is too fresh and new and strange yet and the comfort level isn't there which of course, screams even more delicious and intense UST to come in the future between them. But, then as Caldwell tossed that last snarky line, you could see how Elizabeth's discomfort and embarrassment combined with a bit of sadness and unease as well.

Torri just is a flat out good facial actress and when you have those type of actors, you're better off to let their faces tell the story.

I see that point too, now
would love to write more but I have to go