STAKS: The Anti-Kirking Discussion Thread

[lissa1000]

Irresistible. Ehhhh... I'm not looking forward to this one. It reminds me of Hathor more than just a little, and though that episode was cool, I don't really like the scenes I've seen in images for it so far. Or the concept!

To me, the premise for Irresistible sounds bad, but if they do it right it could end up being a really funny episode. One of the writers said they were going to tease the anti-kirkers, so I'm afraid there will be kirking in this one. I hope the writers have since decided against any teasing. They have to know it would just tick people off.

[Trialia]

I was pretty ticked off when I saw No Man's Land, but I think I may have overreacted. Do you think that scene was tptb's way of acknowledging kirking was bad?

I taped Misbegotten with the intention of watching it if there was no mention of kirking and I have to say I liked Sheppard in this one. Maybe there's hope. As long as Irresistible isn't a steaming pile of poo, I think I might end up really liking this season.

I hope so. I enjoyed Misbegotten too-- full of directed 'ship. <3

Irresistible. Ehhhh... I'm not looking forward to this one. It reminds me of Hathor more than just a little, and though that episode was cool, I don't really like the scenes I've seen in images for it so far. Or the concept!

[lissa1000]

I was pretty ticked off when I saw No Man's Land, but I think I may have overreacted. Do you think that scene was tptb's way of acknowledging kirking was bad?

I taped Misbegotten with the intention of watching it if there was no mention of kirking and I have to say I liked Sheppard in this one. Maybe there's hope. As long as Irresistible isn't a steaming pile of poo, I think I might end up really liking this season.

[Trialia]

Just to make something clear, Tracy, I did not say it was unfair to talk about SG-1... I didn't say that at all. I just said I don't see it happening on the thread. Now that you've brought it up, well, good! I'll join in with what little I do know. I've been "going back to my roots" this afternoon, watching season 1 of SG-1. But Vala... she's a very interesting subject to drop into this thread, I agree.

Spoiler:

I haven't seen that much of her... I like what I do see of her, but not the fact that TPTB seem to want her to go to one extreme or the other. From the spoilers I've read, they're turning her from insatiable, ever-flirty man/womaneater into maternal carrier of the equivalent of the antichrist (apologies to Christians and Adria fans, please don't take offence). It's pretty crazy to do that, and I can't say I understand the motivation behind it. I liked her interaction with Daniel- she was a breath of fresh air that I felt was needed, and though yeah, there may be underlying motivations and such to the kirking behaviour in which she engages... I can't say I really like it. I know TPTB can write a strong female character without 'ship-- Janet is the likeable example I'd take, if nobody minds that-- and I don't understand why they can't manage that successfully with Vala. Sure, she's a flirty character. But sometimes it goes overboard. There are mitigations to comparing her behaviour and Sheppard's, as she's not military commander of a base and the guidelines are therefore considerably different, but it still makes me pretty uncomfortable that they're writing her in such an extremely variable, erratic way. I wish they'd decide one way or the other who she's going to be without pressing the reset button every so often.

[CalmStorm]

So, to specify a little further, I'd like to talk about Daniel and Vala....

Spoiler:

I originally thought that the way Daniel was being paired with Vala was kirking, but you can't really call it that because a) it's not character of the week and it has consequences, but mostly b) because it's Vala causing the trouble and not Daniel.

So I was wondering what people thought of the interaction here, and whether people would say that Vala is kirking or not in this case. Also, what sort of message does it send out to the masses? In my opinion, Vala is molesting and harassing Daniel, yet the writers seem to think that it is okay because she is a hot woman. If it were the other way, it would surely be classed as sexual harrassment. Is this a case of double standards, do you think? Or do you think that it would be treated the same?

What about her behaviour in general? The way she flirts with every man and got married to Tomin... is that kirking? Or is it okay because she's a woman? Or is it okay because that's her character?

Daniel & Vala spoilers

Spoiler:

Very interesting questions and some good points.

When I think about it, Vala's flirting has never really been that big a deal to me. She doesn't discriminate though, she'll flirt with anything that walks upright....not just the hot men. Also, we know a good deal more about Vala's past than some recurring regulars or main cast. We know why she is the way she is. I think of her flirtatious behavoir as a defense mechanism she has developed and ingrained into her behavoir. I don't see her as the type just looking for a one night stand. Their is usually a purpose behind her flirting and she doesn't allow herself to be reeled in by the one with whom she is flirting.

To me, Vala flirts for several reasons: a) protect herself in a dangerous situtaion, b) to get something out of the other person, c) pure entertainment for herself.

Depending on what her new role will be, then there might be issues with her flirtatious behavoir. The thing about the flirting, for me, is I would not expect to see Sam, Mitchell, O'Neill, Sheppard, or Weir flirting except in rare circumstances. I don't want it to be the butt of a joke as a part of their character. If episodes focused on this, or made a point to show what a flirt these charcters were, I would be severly dissappointed. I do hold a higher standard for leaders in certain positions and would expect someone in these types of positions to refrain from frivolous flirting. It is one thing to be looking for a serious relationship and the flirting that ensues as part of that, it is another to flirt most of the time with many people with no real goal other than to score or to be cute. It does not mean it is wrong, it is just something I prefer not to see from someone in that position. Purely preference.

[ToasterOnFire]

Regarding Vala, I was rather squicked at the fact that she

Spoiler:

had...relations with that guy in TTTB (inconceivable!! ). Um...ew. And I didn't think it was necessary for the plot either.

And someone commented upwards about why Shep was such a target for the anti-kirking brigade compared to McKay or Jack. Looking at these three characters, I'd argue that the writers have spent more time developing and fleshing out McKay and Jack compared to Shep. Doesn't make much sense considering that Shep is supposed to be the lead of the show, but there you go. So I'm more willing to forgive Rodney's fumbling attempts with the ladies (which is also getting old) or Jack's flirting with Sam and others because the writers have given me more about those characters to latch onto. In comparison, I don't think we know nearly enough about Shep. My major complaint with his kirking is that it takes up screentime that could be better filled developing his character. The ep Epiphany comes to mind,

Spoiler:

originally there were rumors of Shep's backstory but it apparently got tossed and we were left with the pretty girl.

That was disappointing for a lot of fans.

I get the feeling that the writers aren't quite sure what to do with Shep (and a lot of the other characters on Atlantis, but that's a post for a different thread). And since they're unsure they've decided to take the easy out - have Shep be a ladykiller and emphasize this point again and again. And again. After a while the repetition gets tedious and I lose interest.

[astronomicalchick]

Shep IS loyal to his friends, and is a good friend in return. As a woman, I would enjoy being a friend of his, but I wouldn't want to have a relationship with him because he seems the type to "juggle", if you know what I mean. I've known men who were very nice, and good co-workers and friends, but they had multiple GF's at a time so while I liked them, I wouldn't want to love them.

Yeah, he'd be entertaining enough, but a bit lightweight for me. And you could never trust him with your gorgeous best friend neither.

I think that the

Spoiler:

recent episode of silly behaviour doesn't augur (spelt wrong I know) for the rest of the season

[Tracy Jane]

I fixed my post. Me forgot. *smacks self*

Nah, we all do it, and I think it gets done a lot round here, especially with the season two Atlantis episodes No need to apologise.

[FoolishPleasure]

Remember with talk about ANY episodes from SG1 seasons nine and ten, or any season two or three Atlantis episodes, we need to remember our spoilers. I think we are really lax in this thread about Atlantis spoiler tags (myself included).

I fixed my post. Me forgot. *smacks self*

[Tracy Jane]

I liked Vala last year, especially her flirting and "using", but she wasn't a reg. A lot of fans didn't like her, and I can see their point, but we at least got a bit of her backstory -

Spoiler:

she had been possessed by a Gou'ald, she had been on the run, she has had to con people and use any means necessary to survive (sorta like Starbuck in BSG), so I understood and accepted her personality.

Now that she is a reg, TPTB have stated they are going to tone her down a bit. I was worried that they would lose Vala's fun side, but in F&B I really liked her. She still had that bit of snark and it will be interesting to see how TPTB keep her going. Now, if she ends up "using" men to get ahead every week, I will be disappointed.

I think that is a big point you make there.

Spoiler:

There are definitely different expectations from a regular to a guest star. I think you are right about the snark in Flesh and Blood, it was there, her little jokes and digs, but toned down and a lot easier to stomach.

Remember with talk about ANY episodes from SG1 seasons nine and ten, or any season two or three Atlantis episodes, we need to remember our spoilers. I think we are really lax in this thread about Atlantis spoiler tags (myself included).

[FoolishPleasure]

So, to specify a little further, I'd like to talk about Daniel and Vala....

I liked Vala last year, especially her flirting and "using", but she wasn't a reg. A lot of fans didn't like her, and I can see their point, but we at least got a bit of her backstory -

Spoiler:

she had been possessed by a Gou'ald, she had been on the run, she has had to con people and use any means necessary to survive (sorta like Starbuck in BSG),

so I understood and accepted her personality.

Now that she is a reg, TPTB have stated they are going to tone her down a bit. I was worried that they would lose Vala's fun side, but in F&B I really liked her. She still had that bit of snark and it will be interesting to see how TPTB keep her going. Now, if she ends up "using" men to get ahead every week, I will be disappointed.

[Alipeeps]

It just seems that some of them aren't welcome in this thread anymore

Anyway, to get back onto the issue of kirking. I'm going to discuss Vala today. Now, someone made a comment to me earlier that it's unfair to talk about SG1 because not everyone watches the show. Well, not everyone watched Atlantis, and personally, I'm sick to death of discussing a certain Colonel Sheppard.

So, to specify a little further, I'd like to talk about Daniel and Vala....

Spoiler:

I originally thought that the way Daniel was being paired with Vala was kirking, but you can't really call it that because a) it's not character of the week and it has consequences, but mostly b) because it's Vala causing the trouble and not Daniel.

So I was wondering what people thought of the interaction here, and whether people would say that Vala is kirking or not in this case. Also, what sort of message does it send out to the masses? In my opinion, Vala is molesting and harassing Daniel, yet the writers seem to think that it is okay because she is a hot woman. If it were the other way, it would surely be classed as sexual harrassment. Is this a case of double standards, do you think? Or do you think that it would be treated the same?

What about her behaviour in general? The way she flirts with every man and got married to Tomin... is that kirking? Or is it okay because she's a woman? Or is it okay because that's her character?

Nice to see this thread discussing something - or one - other than Colonel Sheppard!

And a very interesting point you raise about Vala.

Spoiler:

Certainly if a man behaved towards women the way she does towards men, he would be accused of sexual harassment etc.. but somehow it's okay for her to do it because she's a hot babe and... what, that means the blokes secretly like that she's flirting with them and being suggestive etc?

I mean, with her the flirtiness etc is a definite personality trait - I would say possibly one of her defining personality traits - and yet it seems to be considered acceptable, a personality quirk to be tolerated. It seems perhaps the double standard is indeed alive and well....?

[Tracy Jane]

Well, that's your opinion. We all have them.

It just seems that some of them aren't welcome in this thread anymore

Anyway, to get back onto the issue of kirking. I'm going to discuss Vala today. Now, someone made a comment to me earlier that it's unfair to talk about SG1 because not everyone watches the show. Well, not everyone watched Atlantis, and personally, I'm sick to death of discussing a certain Colonel Sheppard.

So, to specify a little further, I'd like to talk about Daniel and Vala....

Spoiler:

I originally thought that the way Daniel was being paired with Vala was kirking, but you can't really call it that because a) it's not character of the week and it has consequences, but mostly b) because it's Vala causing the trouble and not Daniel.

So I was wondering what people thought of the interaction here, and whether people would say that Vala is kirking or not in this case. Also, what sort of message does it send out to the masses? In my opinion, Vala is molesting and harassing Daniel, yet the writers seem to think that it is okay because she is a hot woman. If it were the other way, it would surely be classed as sexual harrassment. Is this a case of double standards, do you think? Or do you think that it would be treated the same?

What about her behaviour in general? The way she flirts with every man and got married to Tomin... is that kirking? Or is it okay because she's a woman? Or is it okay because that's her character?

[FoolishPleasure]

I guess you are right. Our girls don't need a man who is loyal to his friends and stands up for them, who would give his life to save others without blinking an eye, who has enough brain to save the situation sometimes even though not a scientist, who cares about people and tries to help...they just don't need a man like that.

Shep IS loyal to his friends, and is a good friend in return. As a woman, I would enjoy being a friend of his, but I wouldn't want to have a relationship with him because he seems the type to "juggle", if you know what I mean. I've known men who were very nice, and good co-workers and friends, but they had multiple GF's at a time so while I liked them, I wouldn't want to love them.

[gooner_diva]

I was not being sarcastic and I am sorry if it looked like that. I just think you see the tree and lose the forest.

I'd sure like this particular tree cut down.