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STAKS: The Anti-Kirking Discussion Thread

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  • TameFarrar
    replied
    Hi All

    We are going to take a minute to remember the TOPIC of this thread

    STAKS: The Anti-Kirking Discussion Thread

    What does that mean??? that means this is a thread for members that DO NOT LIKE what they term as KIRKING and this is a place that they have created to lament it, yell about it, discuss WHY they don't like it and say what they want WITHOUT having to justify it to anyone.


    Now I will leave up to the members of this thread to decide if they want to continue to report the posts or have the debate......you don't get to have both

    We as Moderators can't enforce a topic if you would like to make it a debate thread so YOU as regular posters of this thread need to make a decision. Do we enforce the Topic or do we change the the title and let the debate continue ???

    Please PM me with your thoughts

    TameFarrar
    GateWorld Moderator

    Leave a comment:


  • Easter Lily
    replied
    Originally posted by Alipeeps
    Ah, but you see therein lies my difficulty in understanding the anti-kirking point of view - how can you say that this is the predominant trait of the character? As discussed in previous posts, if you really really stretch it and include every occasion that could in any way be interpreted as flirting, you're looking at approx 8 occasions out of 41 episodes. If you want to use the example of Rodney's whining as a comparison, for example, it's a fairly safe bet to say that he does whine in just about every one of those 41 episodes.

    Someone even posted earlier admitting that ok, Shep doesn't actually flirt in nearly every episode but that "it feels like he does". This is what I mean about the anti-kirking thing kinda starting to believe its own press, it's been discussed so much in fanon that everyone has convinced themselves it's there in canon too and I simply don't think it is.

    If you're looking for the predominant character trait for John Sheppard, there have probably been more references to his "don't leave people behind" attitude, or his lack of respect for the chain of command, than there have been to him flirting.
    Well, as I've said earlier... everyone's tolerance level for Sheppard's flirtations varies. For some it's cute... for others it's a minor irritation... for others it's a big turn off. And the thing is, it doesn't even to be in every episode for them to be turned off by it. It's not just a matter of 8 out of 41... but there seemed to a concentrated spell of it in S2.
    I can't speak for everyone who claims to be "anti-kirking"... but for me it just hasn't enhanced his character since the beginning of S2. I'm frankly disappointed by the the lack of development of his character and I believe that TPTB haven't the faintest idea about what to do with the character and is using it to substitute real character development. I'm not saying (although others might be) that Sheppard signed up for a life of celibacy but I just don't think they've incorporated that flirtatious side of the character very well in the latter part of S2.

    I think you'll find that there's a diversity of opinions even in a particular faction of fandom. I don't think every single person who is "anti" thinks that "kirking" is canon. I haven't come to that stage yet... if they keep it up for another season, I may. But I still believe that canon Sheppard is a deeply flawed, dark, vulnerable creature who hides under a cloak of levity.

    Dang, I miss him.

    Leave a comment:


  • Alipeeps
    replied
    Originally posted by Merlin7
    I'll give you that. Every actress picked for his off world flirtations has sucked. One dimensional and BORING. All the women off world have been. Blech. Need new casting people.
    yeah, maybe the problem is with the casting and or the writing of the characters he's being given to flirt with - I guess if the character is one-dimensional etc it makes it harder for you to respect someone who appears to find that one-dimensional, boring character attractive.

    I certainly found Nereena, or whatever her name was, in Inferno incredibly bland and boring and - tbh - not even all that attractive..

    Leave a comment:


  • Trialia
    replied
    Originally posted by Merlin7
    I'll give you that. Every actress picked for his off world flirtations has sucked. One dimensional and BORING. All the women off world have been. Blech. Need new casting people.
    Need to throw a wider casting net than Vancouver. Not that all Van actresses are bad, just half of them have been on SG-1 already!

    Leave a comment:


  • Merlin7
    replied
    Originally posted by Trialia
    Yeah, Rodney should be called on Inferno. I don't deny that. Just that nobody has chosen to do so up to this point, right? As for O'Neill, I don't watch SG-1.

    As for Chaya... she was downright rude to most of the Atlantis team, Sheppard being about the exception. Sigh. I just can't stand the character, so all I'm saying with that one is, in his off-world choices, Shep's got lousy taste in women.

    I'll give you that. Every actress picked for his off world flirtations has sucked. One dimensional and BORING. All the women off world have been. Blech. Need new casting people.

    Leave a comment:


  • Merlin7
    replied
    Originally posted by gooner_diva
    There was nothing wrong with Chaya? To me she was one of the biggest errors in judgement Sheppard's ever made. He brought her to Atlantis having just met her, gave her the grand tour, told her everything about not being able to defend the city against the Wraith... You see my problem? You don't give that sort of information to a stranger, no matter how hot she is. And guess what? She wasn't who she claimed to be. She could have just as easily proven to be a security risk.
    Nope. Nothing Wrong with Chaya who SAVED THEIR LIVES. That's the end of it to me right that. But for more stuff, Weir gave it total approval as HEAD OF ATLANTIS she could have made John turn right around and kick Chaya out. She did NOT. Teyla has good instincts. She had no problem either.

    And she wasn't a security risk so moot point.

    Leave a comment:


  • Alipeeps
    replied
    Originally posted by Trialia
    Yeah, Rodney should be called on Inferno. I don't deny that. Just that nobody has chosen to do so up to this point, right? As for O'Neill, I don't watch SG-1.

    As for Chaya... she was downright rude to most of the Atlantis team, Sheppard being about the exception. Sigh. I just can't stand the character, so all I'm saying with that one is, in his off-world choices, Shep's got lousy taste in women.
    Hey, give the guy a break - he's got a limited pool to pick from!

    My main annoyance with Chaya as a character/as a personality is that smug, religious people who answer every logical argument with "my god will provide the answer for me" bug me!

    And of course Sheppy's got poor taste in women - if he had any taste he'd pick me!

    Ooops. I think sleep deprivation may be catching up to me here.. I've gone a bit silly!

    On a more serious note, the issue of Rodney-kirking is perhaps related to why there has been so much heat over the anti-kirking thing... is that it seems to be focused 100% on Sheppard and seems in danger of becoming pure Sheppard bashing. If this thread were also calling Mckay and O'Neill on their kirking (and hello Carson in Epiphany, whingeing whlist on a mission that he needs to get home on time cos he's got a date?! ) then perhaps there wouldn't be such a polarisation of opinion. Right now it seems like on the kirking issue you've either gotta be on the love Sheppy side or the hate Sheppy side and there's little in the way of a happy medium.

    Leave a comment:


  • Trialia
    replied
    Yeah, Rodney should be called on Inferno. I don't deny that. Just that nobody has chosen to do so up to this point, right? As for O'Neill, I don't watch SG-1.

    As for Chaya... she was downright rude to most of the Atlantis team, Sheppard being about the exception. Sigh. I just can't stand the character, so all I'm saying with that one is, in his off-world choices, Shep's got lousy taste in women.

    Leave a comment:


  • Alipeeps
    replied
    Originally posted by gooner_diva
    There was nothing wrong with Chaya? To me she was one of the biggest errors in judgement Sheppard's ever made. He brought her to Atlantis having just met her, gave her the grand tour, told her everything about not being able to defend the city against the Wraith... You see my problem? You don't give that sort of information to a stranger, no matter how hot she is. And guess what? She wasn't who she claimed to be. She could have just as easily proven to be a security risk.
    He brought back to the city with him a woman who they believed had access to a powerful weapon, a woman whose planet was safe from the wraith and with whom they hoped to forge a beneficial alliance. With Weir's blessing, he took her on a tour of the city (I don't recall him telling her specifically how they were defenseless against the wraith?) and, during his off-duty hours, he invited her to a pleasant picnic.. both with the intention of continuing to try and convince her to consider their request for an allegiance and because yes he liked her and liked to spend time in her company. They kissed. Whoop-de-dooh. The only thing that could possibly be considered an error of judgement was perhaps in showing her around the city and explaining Ancient technology to her.. and that decision was Weir's not Sheppards - they were trying to impress her, to show her how advanced their technology was, in the hope that she would be convinced to agree to their request for an alliance.

    Leave a comment:


  • Trek_Girl42
    replied
    Originally posted by gooner_diva
    There was nothing wrong with Chaya? To me she was one of the biggest errors in judgement Sheppard's ever made. He brought her to Atlantis having just met her, gave her the grand tour, told her everything about not being able to defend the city against the Wraith... You see my problem? You don't give that sort of information to a stranger, no matter how hot she is. And guess what? She wasn't who she claimed to be. She could have just as easily proven to be a security risk.
    Exactly.....one would think that he would have been a little more cautious, just as one would think that SGT. Bates would be all over her (not in that way), as he is with Teyla.

    Leave a comment:


  • gooner_diva
    replied
    There was nothing wrong with Chaya? To me she was one of the biggest errors in judgement Sheppard's ever made. He brought her to Atlantis having just met her, gave her the grand tour, told her everything about not being able to defend the city against the Wraith... You see my problem? You don't give that sort of information to a stranger, no matter how hot she is. And guess what? She wasn't who she claimed to be. She could have just as easily proven to be a security risk.

    Leave a comment:


  • Merlin7
    replied
    Originally posted by Easter Lily
    But that's my point exactly... When reading the review threads I'm often gobsmacked by the contrasting opinions. But this is forum afterall... people are entitled to express strongly held opinions on different sides of the fence.
    For some people "kirking" is enough to dislike Sheppard or even to stop watching the show altogether but for me they are just minor irritations unless of course they drag the character down completely.
    While I haven't come to the stage that I dislike Sheppard... I fear for the character, that he will be nothing more than a nonentity.




    "Kirking" alone without in-depth exploration of a male lead makes for an UNINTERESTING character. I think of Kara from BSG... she's a player and yet because of her backstory and her vulnerabilities, she's a character one can really sink one's teeth into.
    Sheppard in S1 was interesting... he did some naughty things... but he did interesting naughty things that didn't always have anything to do with women.

    I am very interested in the insights into military men offered by people in the know on this thread. Thank you for your contribution. It reminds me why I'm not married to one. However, it does make Sheppard seem like a boy scout by comparison.
    I'm crossing my fingers that we get some background, as promised, for Shep. And that he gets some time in the spotlight that actually focuses on WHO he is and WHY he is the way he is. Even Joe has complained he wants more for Shep. I hope we all get that. As much as I love/adore Shep and love every minute of him being a soldier or a friend or a bug or whatever. I want to know more about what makes him tick.

    Leave a comment:


  • Alipeeps
    replied
    Originally posted by IWantToBelieve
    So Rodney going all googly eyed after the Wraithified First Officer in Aurora wasn't a problem? Because using the above, that was also unprofessional. Sheppard hasn't behaved inappropriately to begin with flat out, let alone on duty. Oh, and Beckett got involved with Purna on Hoff...but he shouldn't have done that 'cause he was on duty too.

    But I realizing this is arguing in the wind so whatever.
    Good point - and Rodney's lusting after the Wraithified First Officer DID compromise the mission and put them in danger cos it meant he forgot to mention a few important mission details to Sheppard... like the Wraith cruisers on the way and the fact that Caldwell was about to blow up the ship. How's about that for unprofessional? And he was flirting with the scientist in Inferno too and also with the archeologist in Brotherhood. All this whilst on duty on off-world missions. Where is the Rodney-hate over his incorrigable kirking eh?

    Leave a comment:


  • Easter Lily
    replied
    Originally posted by Merlin7
    I'll agree with it's about Tolerance, but it's also very much about perceptions, but the perceptions at time are twisted away from the reality of what is CANON. Warped into something that really doesn't exist on screen. I think that's the gripe of many of us.
    But that's my point exactly... When reading the review threads I'm often gobsmacked by the contrasting opinions. But this is forum afterall... people are entitled to express strongly held opinions on different sides of the fence.
    For some people "kirking" is enough to dislike Sheppard or even to stop watching the show altogether but for me they are just minor irritations unless of course they drag the character down completely.
    While I haven't come to the stage that I dislike Sheppard... I fear for the character, that he will be nothing more than a nonentity.



    And although I don't believe Shep's flirting is what defines him, it is a personality trait that, to me, is cute and non offensive. That said, What I wouldn't give for him to get CANON background and the chance to do more than shoot guns and say quips. I'll be the first to scream, SHep Needs Background and more focus and better character definition. :hakes fist at PTB::
    "Kirking" alone without in-depth exploration of a male lead makes for an UNINTERESTING character. I think of Kara from BSG... she's a player and yet because of her backstory and her vulnerabilities, she's a character one can really sink one's teeth into.
    Sheppard in S1 was interesting... he did some naughty things... but he did interesting naughty things that didn't always have anything to do with women.

    I am very interested in the insights into military men offered by people in the know on this thread. Thank you for your contribution. It reminds me why I'm not married to one. However, it does make Sheppard seem like a boy scout by comparison.

    Leave a comment:


  • Merlin7
    replied
    Originally posted by Trialia
    No... it IS unprofessional when he engages in that type of behaviour while on duty, which was my original point to start with! Should be kept for his off hours, in which case, okay, Epiphany is excusable. The only real gripe I have about that one is the two-dimensional quality of the girl he chose.

    That clears him with Chaya too. He got time off and it was late so I'm betting he was OFF HOURS then. Cause I don't think Weir would have approved had he not been. Or, at the very least, she DID approve of it. So same difference.

    In INFERNO he flirted BUT, so did Rodney. So unless Rodney gets called on for that one, Shep shouldn't be BESIDES Which it didn't interfere with him doing his JOB. Which he and Rodney both did in the ep.

    TOWER he was flirted with and he put a stop to what she was doing and he was just being a GUY an in that MOMENT it didn't effect anyone. No one was hurt because of it. Nothing BAD happened. He got caught off guard. He's human. It's what I like about him. How real/human his reactions are.

    So that about sums up his flirting.
    Spoiler:
    smiling at someone durning a meal doesn't even count. HE is allowed to LOOK at people and smile

    Leave a comment:

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