Deep Space 9 Superior

[jelgate]

I am not sure but you might think of something else. 'The Void' was a Season 7 episode. They got stuck in an anomaly,where all the ships,that were sucked in, were fighting over resources like fuel and food.

Your right. With 700 episode titles I sometimes make mistakes. You can't expect me to remember them all. The episode I was thinking of was Night. Both really good episodes.

[Descent]

I know it sounds like I dislike Eddington which couldn't be farther from the truth. I love what his character did to Sisko and the Maquis but I always wondered why they never continued the Hudson angle.

Probably because they couldn't get the actor back to do more. Or they didn't think he was that great of a character and rather have it be a recurring character that we had gotten used to by that point.

[Karhedron]

Your right. With 700 episode titles I sometimes make mistakes. You can't expect me to remember them all. The episode I was thinking of was Night. Both really good episodes.

What? You do not have ALL the 700 episode titles ready ALL the time!?


I can only remember the titles of episodes I really liked. Some of the titles I just forget after I have finished watching....but I might be able to tell you the colour of a ship that was only seen on the screen for 0.5 seconds..

Talk about the brain categorizing the information you suck in...seems I got weird priorities

Back on topic : Yes both were good episodes. For Voyager they were even REALLY good.

But what a shame we didn't see more of Fantome's species. I liked those guys.

[DigiFluid]

I always wondered why they never continued the Hudson angle.

Actually if you look at the actor's imdb listing, the last time he'd played a character more than once was in 1983. And the only time since DS9 he's played a character more than once was two appearances is Babylon 5. I think the guy just prefers to play different characters all the time.

I got no idea. I never played the game

Shame

Voyager, as everyone on these boards knows, is an abomination as far as I'm concerned. How bizarre is it then, that it actually resulted in two of the best games the franchise has ever produced? (EF/EF2) Great games, honestly.

[Karhedron]

Shame

Voyager, as everyone on these boards knows, is an abomination as far as I'm concerned. How bizarre is it then, that it actually resulted in two of the best games the franchise has ever produced? (EF/EF2) Great games, honestly.

I might get torn apart for that comment...but years ago (long,long time ago...some might even say in ancient times....gosh now I feel old ) I enjoyed playing the Star Trek adventures.

I wouldn't say Voyager is an abomination. For me (aside from some characters and episodes) it just felt like a whole lot of wasted potential.

[DigiFluid]

Hey you're not that much older than I am

[A_PophisandhisFran]

Ahhh, Elite Force. Now that's a great game. Star Trek: 25th Anniversary and Judgment Rites may be my favorite Trek games though (adventure games with the original cast doing the voice acting for "new missions"). I own a ton of Trek games though and I enjoy almost all of them. There's an old interactive movie with Q and the Borg (not much to do but click a few buttons and watch the movie), and the space sim Starfleet Academy that was panned by most people (that I still loved). TNG's A Final Unity game, DS9 mods, I own ALOT of Trek games. It's kind of funny that there are so many Trek games and there isn't one Stargate one as of yet.

As for Voyager, I actually liked it. There are some... spotty parts, but I liked what I've seen of it (I haven't seen all of it yet, need to buy a couple seasons). Worst problem seems to be continuity. I know TOS and TNG didn't have alot of arc-based episodes, but Voyager could have really benefited by having more of those.

[Descent]

Voyager, as everyone on these boards knows, is an abomination as far as I'm concerned. How bizarre is it then, that it actually resulted in two of the best games the franchise has ever produced? (EF/EF2) Great games, honestly.

Hmm... really hated Voyager but loved EF.... sounds like you're a closet Voyager fan at heart.

Voyager is an OK series. Not good, not great. It had it's moments where it shined a bit and moments where I was face palming. The Doctor/Robert Picardo made the show for me. Like a lot of things I see you say, "abomination" seems very extreme to me. Ah, anyways..

Trek video games are usually pretty sketchy. All mine are in a box somewhere as it's been forever since I've wanted to play one...

Both Elite Force games were pretty neat. I think I liked 2 more because it was set on the Enterprise instead of Voyager.

Bridge Commander was probably my favorite of all the games as the mods brought it as close as you can get to feeling like you're in the universe.

Armada I was a cool RTS game. Armada II did a bunch of stupid stuff that totally turned me off.

The DS9 game (The Fallen?) was good as far as I remember (last played that one 4 or 5 years ago).

And those Interactive movie games (Borg and Klingon) were OK. I probably liked Borg better.

Other than those games, the rest I've played have been bad - awful.

[DigiFluid]

Hmm... really hated Voyager but loved EF.... sounds like you're a closet Voyager fan at heart.

Oh, Descent, you wound me sir

Like a lot of things I see you say, "abomination" seems very extreme to me. Ah, anyways..

What can I say, that's for two reasons. Firstly, I have a real love of language and the various ways that pretty much anything can be jazzed up beyond all recognition. Secondly, I tend to have pretty strong opinions on my choices of entertainment.

Both Elite Force games were pretty neat. I think I liked 2 more because it was set on the Enterprise instead of Voyager.

It's a tough call to be sure. EF had a lot of memorable stuff: namely its Borg missions and the amazing Mirror universe ship section. EF2 was pretty awesome too, for a lot of reasons.

You're right though, most of the games the Trek universe has spawned have been pretty lousy. It's a pretty well-recognized curse.

Oh, I liked Armada and Armada 2....but not straight out of the box. Both of them were buggy POSes straight out of the box. Once they got modded to work properly and add a ton of stuff into them, then they were pretty amazing.

[Descent]

Oh, Descent, you wound me sir

What can I say, that's for two reasons. Firstly, I have a real love of language and the various ways that pretty much anything can be jazzed up beyond all recognition. Secondly, I tend to have pretty strong opinions on my choices of entertainment.

Obviously!

It's a tough call to be sure. EF had a lot of memorable stuff: namely its Borg missions and the amazing Mirror universe ship section. EF2 was pretty awesome too, for a lot of reasons.

Ohhh, that's right. That junkyard in space with all the Mirror Universe stuff. That was awesome. Didn't EF2 have a Borg mission as well?? Hmm.

You're right though, most of the games the Trek universe has spawned have been pretty lousy. It's a pretty well-recognized curse.

Off the top of my head, I'd say Klingon Honor Guard, Star Trek: Legacy, ConQuest Online, those terrible starship creator ones and Dominion Wars (what a shame) were all pretty craptastic.

Oh, I liked Armada and Armada 2....but not straight out of the box. Both of them were buggy POSes straight out of the box. Once they got modded to work properly and add a ton of stuff into them, then they were pretty amazing.

Guess I can't really remember that far back, but I had no problems with Armada I as far as bugs or glitches go.

Armada II had some neat new things here and there but I felt like whoever developed it totally messed up the gameplay. Something felt 'off' to me... maybe the mods did make it 'awesome', but I never cared enough to check any of them out. Usually just found myself playing the first one again.

Bah. I think I'd rather play Mass Effect again.

[DigiFluid]

I think I'd rather play Mass Effect again.

Well now my massive hyperbole runs in your favour

Mass Effect is about the second best game of all time, IMO. Best is and always will be Deus Ex, but ME was an outstanding game. I can't wait for the sequel.

[the Fifth Race]

I wouldn't say Voyager is an abomination. For me (aside from some characters and episodes) it just felt like a whole lot of wasted potential.

I couldn't agree more. Now I liked VOY a lot (I only consider DS9 and TNG better), but IMO there was also a lot of "wasted potential". They took the wonderful idea of a fast and powerful Starfleet ship and crew lost in an unknown galaxy with little chance of making it home and totally dropped the ball (those first couple seasons were rough). On the surface VOY's premise sounds like a winner and at times it worked very well. But over-all it could and should have been much better. Maybe if they would have never introduced us to the Kazaan or Neelix.

[jelgate]

It seems like I am a fan of popular opinion. It seems like my likes are not the norm. Besides DS9 Voyager is my 2nd favorite. On paper its just like TNG but in a different setting. The show is very episodic and has very few arcs just like TNG. So what to me does it sell it above TNG. The characters. I really loved interacted and sometime had tension one another. From Janeway to the Doctor to yes even Tuvok I liked how they were characterizied.

And now since I know you want to disagree brother Descent lets hear your counter arguement

[the Fifth Race]

I had just been watching Voyagers 'The Void'. STILL can't really convince myself of the show itself...but there ARE indeed good episodes every now and then.

It's strange and ironic how the TPTB came around to the point where the only way to use many of the themes of VOY's original premise is to invent a plot that puts the ship in an extreme situation that would've been what the Delta Quadrant itself, in several important ways, might've represented all along had the writers permitted it
That premise is "The Void", which substitutes a barren spatial anomaly for the original presumed barrenness of the Delta Quadrant. Voyager is sucked inside, and they find that in here there's nothing but empty space and other ships -- no resources of any kind, and no known escape. These ships steal from and kill each other to survive. When new ships are sucked in, the waiting tigers pounce. It's survival of the fittest, and the meanest -- Now if VOY would have used this clasical Trek approach from the begining and a lot more often - IMHO it would have a much better show. Weird, how the plot plays almost like an experiment in turning back the clock to opportunities past.

[Descent]

And now since I know you want to disagree brother Descent lets hear your counter arguement

You know what, I kinda do.

Actually, I grew up on Voyager and TNG, only to discover DS9 a little bit later on. I remember really enjoying it every time I saw a rerun of it at 9 PM every night. It was a fun show. But now, I'm older and notice the problems that the show had a lot more now.

The characters were... fine. I guess. The Doctor, Seven and sometimes B'Elanna are the only ones that really stand out to me now. I've said this before, but outsiders are always more interesting to me.

The Doctor is the best Doctor on any Trek series, while Bashir is a close second for me, the ever cynical Bones is third, Beverly is fourth, Pulaski (uninteresting 'Bones clone') is dead last and Phlox...? Best character on the show to me. He's a big part of why I still like Voyager.

Seven was great mainly because it allowed us to see what would happen if a Borg was disconnected from the others and forced to re-adapt into society. That was great.

My problems with Voyager lie with the other underused/underdeveloped characters:

You already know what I think of Janeway. Some of her decisions made me wonder why the Maquis members didn't actually mutiny.

Chakotay could've been an interesting character in the beginning, having to constantly fight over his decision to become a Federation First Officer with his former Maquis friends. Apart from some brief problems with B'Elanna, they never showed a lot of that. A shame.

And he almost never got a good episode (or a lot for that matter) to himself. The Fight and Unforgettable are just awful.

Tom Paris. Kinda like the guy, he could be funny when the writers wanted him to be. Loved Captain Proton. It was a great callback to early Sci-Fi. Other than that, there's nothing really special or compelling about the guy.

Harry Kim. What a waste of space he was. I guess it's telling that he didn't get promoted during those 7 years. The Chute and Timeless are his only good episodes for me. Two episodes. Nice going Harry.

Tuvok. Alright, I admit it, I really like Tim Russ' Tuvok. But talk about totally forgetting about a character. After Season 3, he almost never had anything to himself. Neelix got more to do than he did. Sheesh.

Neelix. Blah. Never ever liked the guy. He's my 'Quark' if you will. Well, maybe I did in Mortal Coil, but beyond that...

Kes. Blah again. I was glad she left so soon and was replaced with a much better character.

So where you love Voyager for the characters, the characters are where Voyager goes wrong for me. So much wasted potential there. It also had a lot of ridiculously awful episodes (Twisted, Threshold, Favorite Son, Demon, The Fight, The Disease, etc.) There's just so many for me and I swear a shuttlecraft crashed on some planet every two or three episodes. Jeez people!

Alright, I'll stop now, this post is already pretty long. Sorry guys.

It's not really a counter argument to you Jel, but rather just my feelings/complaints about the show. I do like it and have a certain fondness for it, but looking back now, it had a lot of problems and a lot of wasted potential.