Into the Black (320)

[suse]

Druitt basically told Helen he's willing to sacrifice the lives of everyone on the planet, as well as erase everything she's done for the past 120 odd years, to fulfill his desire/obsession with renewing their relationship. He's done crazy things before but, as far as we've seem, nothing quite on that level before.

I can see being pissed at marginalizing what she has done - and giving her an eventual death sentence if she never takes the blood - but is he really killing everyone of he goes back and changes things from before they exist? What is to say they won't be born under the same/different circumstances?

And I still don't see why Helen would need to reject John in order to get a lover next season. It's been implied that, whatever Helen felt and continued to feel for Druitt, it didn't stop her from having many relationships over the years.

John was gone for decades at a time. He's there more often now. But no, there is nothing to stop her. Though I think the events in Haunted and her reaction would point to unresolved feelings. I think it was a rather large jump from that to the last 2 eps, bth.

But weren't Druitt and Helen far underground near Praxis? I'd think he'd be far from the exploding caldera on near the surface, plus there was a shot of the vortex traveling up the tunnels away from where Druitt and Adam's machines were.

And he was standing right at the machines. Maybe he went deeper before it went BOOM.

[EvenstarSRV]

Possibly. But he (or the idea of who he was before and what they had) seems to have a hold on her. Also, Magnus give up? But she is seriously disgusted with him right now, that's for sure.

I think she just wants a break from the cycle they've been locked in for years. I don't think she'll ever give up on trying to 'save' Druitt, but I can see her turning her back on trying to deal with or reason with him for a while. I think like Helen said IIRC, he let Adam live twice, everything else was besides the point.

My view is that the creature is responsible for the urges to kill, but John is responsible for who is killed.

The creature separate from John is an indiscriminate killer, it'll kill anyone it can get its hands on at the first opportunity.

But when John gives in to the urges he doesn't just kill whoever is nearby, its very specific types of people. Prostitutes and those who provoke him. That does not come from the creature, that comes from John.

If there is a theme as to why the relationships between Helen and the suitors from her era fail, it is their misogyny.

Interesting thought, that makes sense to me. Another note on the dynamic between Druitt and the creature, the more he teleports the more he loses control/the entity gains strength. In FK&C and Vigilante I think we see a more subdued Druitt because he hadn't been teleporting much and was taking drugs to suppress the entity. Since then he's been using his powers much more, making him more unstable IMO and more likely to recklessly go along with Adam's plan.

I can see being pissed at marginalizing what she has done - and giving her an eventual death sentence if she never takes the blood - but is he really killing everyone of he goes back and changes things from before they exist? What is to say they won't be born under the same/different circumstances?

Well, they also could just as easily have never been born. We don't know the full impact the actions of the Five, powered by the source blood, have had over the last century, but episodes like Normandy suggests they were fairly pivotal. If the D-Day landings had failed, who knows what the post-WWII world would have looked liked, or who would have survived to be alive in the present.

John was gone for decades at a time. He's there more often now. But no, there is nothing to stop her. Though I think the events in Haunted and her reaction would point to unresolved feelings. I think it was a rather large jump from that to the last 2 eps, bth.

It didn't seem like a big jump to me because I think they set it up, in a way, in Out of the Blue with Helen's rejection of him in the dreamworld. Even after that John locked away the Ripper and offered to give up everything for her, she couldn't see herself returning to the life she had with him. To me, that suggested that even if the real Druitt was able to get rid of the entity I don't think Helen could ever fully trust him like she used to, at least not enough to renew their relationship.

And he was standing right at the machines. Maybe he went deeper before it went BOOM.

But I thought it was the mountain/caldera that blew up, not Adam's machines.

[suse]

Interesting thought, that makes sense to me. Another note on the dynamic between Druitt and the creature, the more he teleports the more he loses control/the entity gains strength. In FK&C and Vigilante I think we see a more subdued Druitt because he hadn't been teleporting much and was taking drugs to suppress the entity. Since then he's been using his powers much more, making him more unstable IMO and more likely to recklessly go along with Adam's plan.

Sounds reasonable. Til plot changed it.

Well, they also could just as easily have never been born. We don't know the full impact the actions of the Five, powered by the source blood, have had over the last century, but episodes like Normandy suggests they were fairly pivotal. If the D-Day landings had failed, who knows what the post-WWII world would have looked liked, or who would have survived to be alive in the present.

And others would likely have been born. One thing the human race does well is procreate.While I agree it looks like they played a pivotal role in some points in history, perhaps others would have stepped up to the plate. There are too many variables to really know.

It didn't seem like a big jump to me because I think they set it up, in a way, in Out of the Blue with Helen's rejection of him in the dreamworld. Even after that John locked away the Ripper and offered to give up everything for her, she couldn't see herself returning to the life she had with him. To me, that suggested that even if the real Druitt was able to get rid of the entity I don't think Helen could ever fully trust him like she used to, at least not enough to renew their relationship.

I realize it was set up. That's why I mentioned both episodes. I just don't really buy into it. Though decisions can be made in emotional distress that might later be looked at as not what one really wanted. Making a decision while under the influence of worm venom... and then not having a chance to recover a bit before the poop hits the fan. She's human enough to allow emotions to rule at times, which can work either way. Eh. Whatever.

But I thought it was the mountain/caldera that blew up, not Adam's machines.

Something made them blow up simultaneously. What, if not Adam's machines?

[Skydiver]

you could also take ehr speech in out of the blue to have a deeper meaning....in the dream she was the happy artist, estranged from her hubby, who just happens to quit his job to try over.

but she doesn't want 'happily families', she wants 'more'....and it's possible that that 'more' was what pushed her to reject john (kinda like how, in stargate, I see Pete as fallout from Grace.....there was Sam, realizing that she never seems happy or tries to make it work with a guy, bound and determined to give that relationship a chance, even to the point of ignoring the traditional warning signs.

I think helen came out of 'out of the blue' realizing that 'normal' isn't for her and she wants more and that there's a part of her that has been and is waiting for john to 'heal'...and that he never will. that his monster will always lurk beneath the surface.

[majorsal]

you could also take ehr speech in out of the blue to have a deeper meaning....in the dream she was the happy artist, estranged from her hubby, who just happens to quit his job to try over.

but she doesn't want 'happily families', she wants 'more'....and it's possible that that 'more' was what pushed her to reject john (kinda like how, in stargate, I see Pete as fallout from Grace.....there was Sam, realizing that she never seems happy or tries to make it work with a guy, bound and determined to give that relationship a chance, even to the point of ignoring the traditional warning signs.

I think helen came out of 'out of the blue' realizing that 'normal' isn't for her and she wants more and that there's a part of her that has been and is waiting for john to 'heal'...and that he never will. that his monster will always lurk beneath the surface.

was it ever explained in 'out of the blue' *why* helen and john were divorcing? something in helen's mind just doesn't want to accept happy with john. or, did helen create that reality in 'oftb', or were kate and henry responsible for it in some way?

she loves john, she always will, but going from her loving attitude with him in 'for king and country' to her rejecting him, even with the events that lead up to her being *so* ticked at him... it just felt too sudden. too out of the blue.

you could even see john's reactions to helen's anger and her accusations. he was with some of them, like he couldn't understand her extreme reactions to what he was doing.

but maybe 'out of the blue' seriously made helen look at just *what* she really wants with john... and maybe it's nothing romantic. maybe she's just tired of the game and over it all.

or maybe she'll change her mind.

i sound like a helen/john shipper

[kes]

Not to mention wearing pants. Totally scandalous. And being alone and broke in 1898 London means she's pretty much on her own and vulnerable.

maybe she'll look for Dad.

I ment Druitt killing prostitutes. Why he picked them.
But yes, she'll def need help. And because of that she needs to change history.
If she meets dad and tells him about Hollow Earth, maybe that is what sends him there. And why he leaves Magnus the map. Ou totally fish eating its on tail.
Cant wait to see S04!!!

[Skydiver]

they never explained where the 'blissful' stuff came from. If Kate and Henry made it up, or if the worm was trying to give them bliss and their subconscious just refused to accept that bliss.

I think the one thing, when will and helen were in the car and abby and druitt outside, both were waffling, until druitt screamed 'get out of the bloody car!!!!!!!!' and that's when will said 'let's go' and helen didn't hesitate.

I don't get the impression that druitt was mean or abusive in his relationship, but he did seem to be controlling. 'Honey, let's live this way', etc.

I think it may have been part of her old feelings of being too independant for the times. Born in an era when women weren't even legally considered a person, I don't think she ever took kindly to the idea that since she's female she was good for nothing but being a wife and mother and house keeper.

[jckfan55]

I realize it was set up. That's why I mentioned both episodes. I just don't really buy into it. Though decisions can be made in emotional distress that might later be looked at as not what one really wanted. Making a decision while under the influence of worm venom... and then not having a chance to recover a bit before the poop hits the fan.

Good point.

She's human enough to allow emotions to rule at times, which can work either way.

True. I think she's very raw from recent experiences.
I also believe that though she may not see a future with Druitt, she can't get him completely out of her system.
And heck, if she could, from a show perspective that would eliminate a great element--this complex relationship with Druitt Magnus has. Love, hate, the need to try to cure him etc.




Something made them blow up simultaneously. What, if not Adam's machines?[/QUOTE]

[Morigane50]

Cruel episode because now we have to wait 3 or 4 months before to know what will happen , this will be long !
I found it was a good episode with a lot of actions and a lot of questions :
What I found interesting in this episode is that the future of the Sanctuary network may be in danger , if we think about what the girl from the UN says to Magnus that the situation is above the sanctuary competence , and then Magnus who disappears into the past , they really are not in a good position. Could it be the end of the Sanctuary , replaced by some kind of private military organisation?
How are they going to handle the massive invasion of abnormals and it is not possible that the humans do not discover the existence of abnormals, which may lead to very violent reactions from both parts .
How Magnus will be able to come back into the present time ?
Is Magnus's father dead ? ( I hope not ) and why didn't they find bodies when Magnus and John discovered Praxis completely destroyed ? maybe there are survival somewhere in Praxis ?
A lot of brainstorming for us during summer . I don't like cliffhangers , I am too impatient in general.

I liked the scenes between Magnus and John, knowing who is Druitt, it is still very touching to see that he is always running after his lost love , it is even a little childish from him but maybe it reflects the human part of him , the one which is not abnormal . Poor Helen who has to deal with that . In this episode she is really on the verge to loose everything she has , her sanctuary, her father , her feelings for Druitt which are always ambiguous , her life in the 21st century . What will happen if she meets her double in the 19th century ? can she die because of a temporal paradox ?
There were different scenes that I liked too ; The interaction between Will and Henry , Kate and her reaction when the soldier doesn’t even shake her hand ( Macho !) , Kate and Garris .
I found very funny the fight between Will and Mr Muscle , what did he had in mind , he was going to be massacred but fortunately Biggie arrived in time .
I didn’t really understand by whom Fallon was murdered and why , I don’t think she was going to really betray her own race , and if it was only to trap Will to do the diversion , it was cruel to murder her .
I liked a lot the last image , with Helen back in the years 1896 , even if we know and see that it is CGI , I always find beautiful to watch . I liked how people were looking at her . What will happen when she meet Adam Worth ?

To be continued ….

[Huaracocha]

All the discussion of how 'hard' Helen is on John in this episode just illustrates to me how differently individual viewers can interpret and feel about what they are watching.

Firstly it wouldn't have surprised me, or seemed out of character or mean, if Helen had been this harsh to John with no provocation.. just because she's sick of him showing up and hassling her.

Secondly I'd regard failing to kill Adam and going along with his time-bending plan as more than provocation enough to abandon a best friend or disown a family member, let alone dress down a one time friend and lover who is now no more than an unwelcome stalker and occassional antagonist and threat.

Just goes to show how much of ourselves we put into the story we take from watching a show like this

[ann_sgcfan]

All the discussion of how 'hard' Helen is on John in this episode just illustrates to me how differently individual viewers can interpret and feel about what they are watching.

Firstly it wouldn't have surprised me, or seemed out of character or mean, if Helen had been this harsh to John with no provocation.. just because she's sick of him showing up and hassling her.

Secondly I'd regard failing to kill Adam and going along with his time-bending plan as more than provocation enough to abandon a best friend or disown a family member, let alone dress down a one time friend and lover who is now no more than an unwelcome stalker and occassional antagonist and threat.

Just goes to show how much of ourselves we put into the story we take from watching a show like this

I agree we all watch shows differently. I watch shows with the other episodes in mind and I'm a stickler for details.

My problem is - why the sudden about face with the character? It's the inconsistency with Helen and even John that has me scratching my head ... it has nothing to do with me putting myself in Helen's shoes. Helen and John's relationship is complex at best, which makes the story interesting. While I personally don't see Helen and John jumping into a romantic relationship anytime soon, even before this episode aired. I could tell whatever they shared was deeply personal that effects them both, as just the memory of that time evokes emotions even in the present. I also don't see John as the "unwelcomed stalker and occasional antagonist/threat", that was more John from s1 ... The writers have moved beyond that and allied him with Helen and the sanctuary crew for much of s2 and 3. She was enlisting his help on many occasions.

I'm just trying to figure out how in "Haunted" s2 when John killed an innocent person Helen not only explains it's the creature that controls his rages, but she also takes partial responsibility. She didn't like it, she didn't condone it, but she understood him better than anyone. Wow now that sounds like someone that operates a facility that protects/ studies abnormals... It's not something most would do, it's a bold statement that says the sanctuary is more than a job, it's her life's work.

Now we have the end of s3 ... Adam the nemesis from the Five's past, who has evaded death not only from John's hands, but also from Helen's (when she shot him in the shoulder on the cliff). Now I agree Helen should be mad at John for allowing Adam to trick him again. I don't think anyone questions her motives there. But Helen's anger isn't so much that John was tricked ... it's more that John allowed Adam to live. She wanted John to kill Adam, because that's what John does. So it made it sound like Helen uses John as her killing lap dog ... and that to me doesn't sound like anything we have seen from Helen in past episodes. How does she go from wanting to help him, to using the creature that control him to do her bidding? THAT'S what I'm having a hard time processing.

Also having John come off as a love sick fool, didn't help the character at all. John who supposedly has outsmarted the highly intelligent Helen and Watson for the better part of a century suddenly gets outwitted by Adam because John let his emotions get the better of him???? What? The last scene between John and Helen doesn't gel with what I have seen in episodes past ... it sounds like I hated the episode and I didn't. I enjoyed all of it, except that one scene that seems to undo a lot of great character development.

[EvenstarSRV]

Now we have the end of s3 ... Adam the nemesis from the Five's past, who has evaded death not only from John's hands, but also from Helen's (when she shot him in the shoulder on the cliff). Now I agree Helen should be mad at John for allowing Adam to trick him again. I don't think anyone questions her motives there. But Helen's anger isn't so much that John was tricked ... it's more that John allowed Adam to live. She wanted John to kill Adam, because that's what John does. So it made it sound like Helen uses John as her killing lap dog ... and that to me doesn't sound like anything we have seen from Helen in past episodes. How does she go from wanting to help him, to using the creature that control him to do her bidding? THAT'S what I'm having a hard time processing.

re the bolded, I'd point to Eulogy and Druitt going after the Cabal leaders. Helen herself later says in Haunted:

HELEN
It's more about compulsion than murder. I set him up for this, letting him loose on the Cabal. He knew I'd find out about his activities sooner or later. He wanted me to kill him.

I think Druitt was mostly right when he told Helen in this episode that she's kinda used him to do her dirty work over the years. I think she's capable and willing to kill when necessary (shooting Adam both in the past and in Hollow Earth), but both times she also seemed to believe/relied on Druitt to finish the job.

In general, I think Helen is often quite willing to 'use' people to fulfill her plans and goals. Now, usually this means appealing to their better instincts or their selflessness (like Ravi controlling the people in Carentan so she could set off the time node). But I don't think she's above utilizing someone's dangerous/evil abilities for her own purposes.

Also having John come off as a love sick fool, didn't help the character at all. John who supposedly has outsmarted the highly intelligent Helen and Watson for the better part of a century suddenly gets outwitted by Adam because John let his emotions get the better of him???? What? The last scene between John and Helen doesn't gel with what I have seen in episodes past ... it sounds like I hated the episode and I didn't. I enjoyed all of it, except that one scene that seems to undo a lot of great character development.

I do agree here re Druitt, while he's obviously still hung up on Helen I didn't think he was that driven to actively get back together with her.

[Skydiver]

i can see how helen's used him...if she stalked and killed the cabal, it woulda been war and would have endangered the sanctuary. but if he does it....hey, he's a rogue that she has no control over,ain't her fault.

John does seem to be written to service the plot upon occasion.

that said, tesla did say that one thing they could always count on, john would never hurt helen deliberately.

[Huaracocha]

I can see the idea that Helen uses John from time to time and perhaps it is a bit of an odd fit with her character to be outraged that John didn't kill Adam. When I watched the episode I never took it like that but more the reason why he let Adam live - it's not like John let him off the hook for humanitarian reasons..

...
that said, tesla did say that one thing they could always count on, john would never hurt helen deliberately.

I think this sums up how I viewed the John / Helen scene and why it doesn't strike me as odd for her to be so angry. The way I understand going along with Adam's time-bending plan, from Helen's POV, is that John is deliberately trying to hurt her. He's effectively trying to kill her and replace her with an alternate timeline version of Helen that he can still be with. Incidentally risking everyone and everything in the process - with particular risk to those closest to Helen over the course of her life since those will be the most likely affected.

To my way of thinking, in terms of emotional impact to Helen at least, John might as well have told her, "Adam and I have come up with a plan to make you mine. I have cloned you and erased the clone's memory back to when we were together. Now I am going to kill you. Anyone who notices the difference among your friends and colleagues I'll kill also." Except his plan is far worse than this because it would achieve all that and would eliminate her history of relationships as well, do who knows what to the uninvolved innocents in the world at large, not to mention rob Helen of her core identity as herself by erasing 100 odd years of her existence as if it had never been.

...
Also having John come off as a love sick fool, didn't help the character at all. John who supposedly has outsmarted the highly intelligent Helen and Watson for the better part of a century...

I completely agree with that, I've always been quite partial to the Druitt character but the more they push his obsession with Helen angle the harder I find it to relate to him. Maybe I've just never experienced love that deeply but he's starting to remind me of Kathy Bates' character in Misery!

[jckfan55]

I'll have to rewatch it, but iirc they did play up the angle of John wanting to go back for romantic reasons. Now, him going back so that he doesn't get taken over by the Electrokiller I can see, with a benefit of going back to their happy couple days.
I think the scene may have been shortchanged a bit. Those two are very complex.