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**Huaracocha** · 22 June 2011, 07:41 PM

Originally posted by Skydiver View Post

well, if she kills him in the past he'll never exist in the future, however, their tracking down of Worth is what led to the Five getting the immunities they had, so killing Adam before his little terrorist act would undo that.

she has to kill the present worth and dispose of him in such a way that no one knows who he is.

They've travelled back to a point in time after they injected the Source blood though, no? Which reminds me of an unrelated thought I had.. if I was Will or Kate or anyone else in the know and not one of the Five I would have been straight down to the Vampire place they blew up immediately after looking for some Source blood to see what little powers I could tap into!

**Chelle DB** · 22 June 2011, 08:35 PM

Originally posted by llp View Post

As for poor John. If Helen changes the time line, then he wouldn't have changed putting their status back to what it was before he pulled in all that electricity. Does she want to not see him again....I think she will see him back in time and see the sweet sides of him again and fall in love again....not that she ever completely fell out of love with him. Good, bad or indifferent - you never forget your first real love!

Totally agreed. I don't believe that Helen is or ever will be over John...I think that's one of the reasons she acted like she did...she can't help but always feel something for him despite of all that has happened in the past...and even in the present.

Originally posted by kes View Post

I love his reaction to her: "in order to bed me in some other timeline" is priceless. Its sort of like a "well no, yes...ah. Frak" all in one look

That was what made me think she said things out of frustation and anger rather than from the heart. But I thought John's look was more of "what? No...but of course I want to bed you but that's not the real or only reason"...John loves her...many men do but I think those two will always be connected...I guess once you've had a relationship like theirs that has spanded all those years, how can one just switch it off.

Originally posted by majorsal View Post

i *loved* the look on helen's face when she took john's arm in the elevator!!

Yep...cute!

It's the same I look I give my hubby when he drags me away from my computer to help him lift something off the truck or cook dinner...totally can read her mind in that snapshot!

Originally posted by majorsal View Post

don't take helen's words to john to heart! she's just overwhelmed, and don't forget the loving things she's said to him before. *hugs a shipper*

And the whle Cambodia thing...I definitely think she said what she said in a defensive manner...to protect herself to not get caught up in his charms.

Originally posted by Dutchess View Post

I thought about this too. The Kabal was afraid of abnormals taking over. (Just playing devil's advocate

) maybe if the Kabal succeeded, they would have had this under control? Hm....

Originally posted by Skydiver View Post

I too had thoughts about the cabal and how they may be behind it all...since they had the 'abnormals must be caged' attitude, same as gen villanova.
i'm thinking whomever this power is that's put Lotus in place, they're backed by the cabal

The Cabal certainly came to my attention too but then I was thinking...would the Cabal have known about Hollow Earth?? I'm wondering if this is a good opportunity to bring the Cabal back.

Originally posted by Skydiver View Post

a note i found while transcribing....druitt let adam live the first time. they had some sort of 'arrangement/bargain/deal'.
now magnus has gone back to stop him, and may be trapped in the past, and she's going to have to deal with stopping/killing a man based on his future crimes, what she knows he'll do...and do this in the face of a timeline he's trying to change.
well, if she kills him in the past he'll never exist in the future, however, their tracking down of Worth is what led to the Five getting the immunities they had, so killing Adam before his little terrorist act would undo that.
she has to kill the present worth and dispose of him in such a way that no one knows who he is.

I thought John just let Adam go the first time and that he was presumed to have drowned...did John always know that Adam survived the first time?
With regard to the whole going back in time...Helen can't change the past...the whole grandfather paradox will come into play...will this mean Ashley's future will be altered? Will Will's future be altered...come to think of it...everyone's future could be dramatically altered. Helen's gonna have to play it very carefully so as to not upset the current timeline...which I guess now with her back in the 1800's has already changed it.
I wonder, if Helen is indeed trapped in the past, could it be that when we see the Sanctuary back in the present time, Helen will have re lived all those years again and will in fact now be...let me do the math...160 + going back to 1898...so add that to 2011 which is 113...160 + 113...ouch...273 years old...wicked.

Gee I hope I did that math right.

But the if she lived all those years again, would she have let Ashley go again?? Would she have had to make the same decisions and choices she had to in the other timeline?? Oi!

**Skydiver** · 23 June 2011, 03:38 AM

Originally posted by Huaracocha View Post

They've travelled back to a point in time after they injected the Source blood though, no? Which reminds me of an unrelated thought I had.. if I was Will or Kate or anyone else in the know and not one of the Five I would have been straight down to the Vampire place they blew up immediately after looking for some Source blood to see what little powers I could tap into!

maybe not.

for king and country, the Five got their 'govt turning a blind eye' arrangement from the mission to track adam down. she kills adam before he tries to kill all of london, then that won't happen.

__

Spoiler:

**Skydiver** · 23 June 2011, 03:39 AM

I also had the same thought about the source blood. I'd be searching the ruins, not just for that, but to make sure that no sleeping vamps survived.

**kes** · 23 June 2011, 04:39 AM

She can't change anything and I dont think she'll try. But the fact that she's there immediately changes things. I love time travel stories, when they are done right.
Her mission: Kill or bring back with her, Adam Worth from her time.
I really believe Tesla will save the day, well.. get Magnus back. Its the perfect story for a Tesla hero

**meredithchandler73** · 23 June 2011, 06:08 AM

Originally posted by Skydiver View Post

maybe not.

for king and country, the Five got their 'govt turning a blind eye' arrangement from the mission to track adam down. she kills adam before he tries to kill all of london, then that won't happen.

Aha - but if the Five kill Adam in the past (the one that is supposed to be in the past), there is no Hollow Earth storyline at all. I mean, maybe Gregory still ends up in Hollow Earth and tries to get a message to Helen, but so much of getting there did involve Adam. He sent the creepy albino creatures to get the knowledge from Will's mind, which they wouldnt have retrieved without the device our guys got from them. And that was just leading them to the map. Adam was the first to mention keystones and how they would lead to Hollow Earth.

It seems to me that Helen's goal is to stop PresentDayAdam from doing ANYTHING in the past which might alter history.

I think it was very smart of the writers to make the time travel to 1898 - after The Five came into being and after Helen discovered that John was Jack The Ripper. I know all the shippers out there wish there could be a glimpse of the happy times for John and Helen. (I wouldn't mind seeing that as well.) But this story takes the possibility of John's "do over" out of the equation. It will be fascinating to see who Helen meets in the past and how they interact.

Some wishes for season 4:
--I do enjoy the fact that they let bad things happen in the world of Sanctuary (like killing off Ashley). But I do hope there is a bit of a reset and that Praxis can be saved. I really wanted to see more of Helen and Ranna together. Also, I don't want Gregory Magnus to be dead. Or at least, not to die before Helen can see him again.
--And while I personally don't think Helen's vehement rejection of John is setting up for some kind of love interest for Helen, I still wouldn't mind one for her.

**Huaracocha** · 23 June 2011, 09:45 AM

Well we don't know whether they're enacting 'traditional' time travel - where there will be 2 versions of Helen & Adam now in 1898 or some version of 'Quantum Leap' type time travel where they have effectively transported their consciousness into their old selves. The latter would make sense of the shift from Hollow Earth to London but that's by the by. How they choose to go on this informs what they can / can't do with the story.

The nature of the Butterfly Effect means that we can't assume anything about the future / present based on what Helen does in the past. It's not necessarily as simple as x causes y therefore z e.g. if she kills 1898 Adam no Hollow Earth storyline in the future. A far less drastic action could have equally far-ranging ramifications, then again such a drastic action could be compensated by other means and still arrive at very similar results.

It's certainly got legs! I just hope there's more effort / thought put into how they play it out and rationalise it than there was in the Carentan episode where, for me at least, their efforts at interpreting timelines and time travel conunundrums fell rather short.

**Skydiver** · 23 June 2011, 10:25 AM

For all we know Helen kills Adam and then goes to a future that isn't right and she tries to go back and fix that. And that's the season four arc.

**Huaracocha** · 23 June 2011, 11:28 AM

The more I think about it, the more I feel that either they're going to use the only one Helen / Adam mode of time travel or our Helen is going to die somewhere in this time travel process. Otherwise we'd face the tricky scenario of 2 Helens going forward in the present day timeline!

**ann_sgcfan** · 23 June 2011, 02:03 PM

At the end of the episode, Helen enters the 1800's wearing her present day clothing... so I'm assuming by this there are now two Helen's in the 1800's.

Given Helen's stoic stance of not changing the past for fear of what it will change in the future ... Just the fact that she is there changes the future. Therefore, I'm hoping it's more than a cat/mouse game through history between present day Helen/ Adam before they push the reset button. Given her physician side to help save lives, I would like to see her wrestle with saving someone, knowing she has the ability to do it vs. letting them die... whether she follows through or not ... just seeing the dilemma would be interesting insight to the character.

Having Henry and Tesla working together on Adam's machine - I'm betting they will be able to figure out how to bring Helen back. LOL or go back to the past to bring her home ... but having Future Tesla in the past is a scary thought

**Huaracocha** · 23 June 2011, 02:34 PM

Originally posted by ann_sgcfan View Post

At the end of the episode, Helen enters the 1800's wearing her present day clothing... so I'm assuming by this there are now two Helen's in the 1800's.

Excellent point!

**Rocky89** · 23 June 2011, 02:51 PM

Originally posted by Galileo_Galilee View Post

Plus Druitt is Jack The Ripper thanks to that parasite in him. Which he has now unleashed again on the world.

I hope that Helen will undo that along with whatever she does to fix what Adam is up to. I hope we don't lose this nicer John, for us and Helen.

Originally posted by Huaracocha View Post

Great episode nice to see Sanctuary back on track after a couple of slow episodes. Shame we have to wait so long for the next one now :|

I'm not sure we need to worry too much about how they deal with the fallout from abnormal invasion, Worth's destruction of Praxis etc. None of that will necessarily happen now as he and Helen have entered a different timeline. So many interesting possibilities..

Will Helen run into herself? Into 2 versions of Worth and kill them both? (depending on how they interpret time travel for the show I guess). Will she run into John and help him get control of the monster earlier in his life? Warn Dr Watson or Nigel about possible impending dooms?

Really anything is possible now although the suspicion is they'll come up with a reset switch of some kind to take us back to just before Alan set off his time field in 'our' timeline and prevent it. One plausible such scenario would be for Helen to kill Worth and herself before they can interfere drastically with the timeline, at the same time leaving a time capsule for her other self to retrieve just in time to stop worth in the present day. I doubt they'd use something so dull as a plot device though.

As to the Helen-John love/hate thing I didn't see Helen as being unreasonable at all. Apart from altruistic reasons; that he was willing to put the whole world at risk for his selfish ends which is bad enough, his plan is to take away her source blood i.e. immortality. I'd be pretty annoyed at someone wanting to take away immortality from me and I haven't even tasted it to miss it. Sure there's the whole jaded, lived too long angle etc but don't try and convince me at least part of her doesn't enjoy everlasting youth!

I'd really like to see Helen run into herself in the past, I love when characters meet their doubles, I don't know why, I just do.

This kinda reminds me of the S4 premiere of Star Trek: Enterprise, when they go back to WW2, and Archer and the crew have to fix the timeline.

Originally posted by jckfan55 View Post

I enjoyed the episode.

I may be reading things into the exchange btw John & Helen, but on first viewing I thought Helen was revealing her hurt when she said something like "if who I am now means so little to you that you'd erase it" even though she was also saying "it would never work."

I think she may have been trying to convince herself to give up on John after the dream world thing.

I'm a bit wary of how this story will be resolved, but heck, Damien's pulled it off before, I'm fairly confident he will again.

She had a point, he was going to alter probably the whole world, and there's no telling that even if it worked that they'd still be able to be together in an AR, either one of them could do something to end their relationship or they could fall out of love. John did the wrong thing for noble reasons, and Helen saw that, and that hurt her.

Originally posted by Chelle DB View Post

I thought John just let Adam go the first time and that he was presumed to have drowned...did John always know that Adam survived the first time?
With regard to the whole going back in time...Helen can't change the past...the whole grandfather paradox will come into play...will this mean Ashley's future will be altered? Will Will's future be altered...come to think of it...everyone's future could be dramatically altered. Helen's gonna have to play it very carefully so as to not upset the current timeline...which I guess now with her back in the 1800's has already changed it.
I wonder, if Helen is indeed trapped in the past, could it be that when we see the Sanctuary back in the present time, Helen will have re lived all those years again and will in fact now be...let me do the math...160 + going back to 1898...so add that to 2011 which is 113...160 + 113...ouch...273 years old...wicked.

Gee I hope I did that math right.

But the if she lived all those years again, would she have let Ashley go again?? Would she have had to make the same decisions and choices she had to in the other timeline?? Oi!

If she does fix the timeline, and do whatever she's going to do, I wonder how far back it'll go, and maybe the events of Carentan won't even happen. Either way, I hope she remembers it all.

And I heard from AT and DK in some podcast from TV,eh that this episode is supposed to be kick a$$ for Helen.

Someone even said it'll be redemption for the awards.

**Huaracocha** · 23 June 2011, 03:48 PM

Yeah I'd love to see Helen bump into younger Helen would be a great scene

Not sure they'd get along or agree.. potential conflict on interfering with timelines / discussing future events. How about a bit of Helen & Helen vs. Adam & Adam tag team action? My money's on the Magnus's!

**Skydiver** · 23 June 2011, 04:16 PM

or she kills adam, but not before he treats imogene. helen goes to the future and either doesn't know or can't kill a child and then deals with the fallout of a changed future

of course, saving imogene is what drove adam's quest to figure out time travel. if imogene survives then all his time stuff likely won't happen...so maybe if imogene lives helen will have to make sure she doesn't...or maybe adam's cure doesn't work thus proving that there might be a bit of 'fate' and 'destiny' in it all

**majorsal** · 23 June 2011, 04:27 PM

i'd like to see helen arrive in victorian england, with the sole purpose of finding and killing adam for good. and she does it, but now has to find a way back to her time. after some adventures she'd prefer to forget, she comes back home, to find everything exactly the way she left it, with the abnormals invading and the sanctuary network in trouble.

my preference is not messing with the timeline from the past (that would effect the future), but keeping what's happened in this episode for keeps.

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