The Incident, Part 2 (517)

[SoulReaver]

Juliet on the other hand is dead, unless her durability exceeds that of Superman of course

[Shan Bruce Lee]

I don't remember that
how d'you figure ? the live Locke has all the memories of the dead one (we also see it when he wakes up/resurrects) so the live one is the real one. the dead one is just a former clone uh I mean shell (a bit like asgards after they transfer hehe)

He said in the first scene he was gonna keep trying to kill him until he found a loophole.

When he took Locke's form and convinced Ben to kill Jacob at the end, Jacob said "you found your loophole"

[SoulReaver]

He said in the first scene he was gonna keep trying to kill him until he found a loophole.

When he took Locke's form and convinced Ben to kill Jacob at the end, Jacob said "you found your loophole"

ok so what's the deal with this "loophole" ?? this implies some kinda rule and means anti-Locke (or whatever) trying to find a way to break this rule or something...

[jenks]

Elizabeth Mitchell is awesome.

[Arative]

ok so what's the deal with this "loophole" ?? this implies some kinda rule and means anti-Locke (or whatever) trying to find a way to break this rule or something...

Perhaps they aren't allowed to kill one another or their both immortal and can't die at each others hands.

The whole Jacob/Esau thing is pretty fascinating to me. For example, take Locke. If he really died at Ben's hands and didn't come back to life, and it appears that way, then he kind of got played for a fool by both Jacob and Esau, didn't he? Very heavy religious themes, such as Ben as Job being asked to sacrifice everything without any answers from his God. I also assume Ben was the "loophole" Esau wanted, its not just enough that a man can kill Jacob, it has to be someone who followed him for a long, long time or was marked as special - otherwise Esua could have convinced/fooled a random person to kill Jacob. The conflict between Jacob and Esau is still mysterious to me.

[Darren]

I love, love, love the Jacob / Esau (for lack of his real name) dynamic. They've introduced an over-arching Good vs. Evil theme, and completely cast the last five years in a new light by revealing that there are two competing "people" behind what we've always called "the Island."

"Esau" has wanted to kill Jacob for over 100 years, perhaps centuries before that. They lived on the island together, probably alone at first. But there are rules he must follow -- apparently including the fact that he can't kill him directly. So he finally finds a "loophole," manipulating someone else to kill Jacob for him. A lot of the past five years have been about Esau's manipulation of Ben/Locke/Richard/etc. to use them to finally get to Jacob.

The Others follow Jacob, perhaps even worship him. He is "the Island," to them -- His Will Be Done. He is "the one who watches over us all." (Who knows if they even know a competing force exists on the island!)

I think that Esau is the Smoke Monster. He's the evil force on the island, the yang to Jacob's yin. He's been taking the form of loved ones for years, to manipulate them -- Yemi, Boone, Alex, perhaps he's even Christian (after Jacob leaves the cabin). He gets Locke to sacrifice himself, gets him killed, replaces him when he comes back on Ajira 316, and uses Alex's image to convince Ben to do whatever "Locke" says.

So my question for Season Six: Is Jacob dead?

If he's some kind of immortal (at least very long-lived), can he be killed by stabbing him and setting him on fire? (Esau seems to think that'll be enough.)

And if he was killed in 2007, does that change by the detonation of the bomb ... assuming that does manage to change the timeline.

I think the plan does work, but something totally different than the Swan station still causes 815 to crash on the island in 2004 (Season Six). Jacob is back alive, and some people (at least Jacob and Esau, if not several of the Losties as well) are aware of the past timeline that has been changed.

[SoulReaver]

Perhaps they aren't allowed to kill one another or their both immortal and can't die at each others hands.

The whole Jacob/Esau thing is pretty fascinating to me. For example, take Locke. If he really died at Ben's hands and didn't come back to life, and it appears that way, then he kind of got played for a fool by both Jacob and Esau, didn't he? Very heavy religious themes, such as Ben as Job being asked to sacrifice everything without any answers from his God. I also assume Ben was the "loophole" Esau wanted, its not just enough that a man can kill Jacob, it has to be someone who followed him for a long, long time or was marked as special - otherwise Esua could have convinced/fooled a random person to kill Jacob. The conflict between Jacob and Esau is still mysterious to me.

so Esau is Cerberus ?

[SoulReaver]

btw I'd be really pissed if they did kill off Locke (permanently). if the island can make some ppl live forever then it can also bring others back to life. cellular regeneration, memory transfer, u name it. in fact there doesn't even have to be an explanation (hey this is Lost)

[HAL2100]

The resurrected Locke is actually The Other Guy case in point the conversation at the beginning about the 'loophole' which came full circle at the end.

Its my theory that Jacob actually manipulated Ben into a position that he'd be willing to kill him - hence ignoring him when he was the leader, the cancer, seeing his daughter die and being banished. My theory is that the rules for Jacob and The Other Guy are slightly different. While The Other Guy can't directly kill Jacob, he doesn't have to have a good reason to orchestrate his death. Jacob on the other hand can directly kill The Other Guy, but only under certain conditions - such as Jacob being killed or attacked. Hence Jacob's knew all along that The Other Guy had Locke's phyiscal appearance.

Jacob even went so far as to have the Black Smoke Monster tell Ben that he must do everything that Locke told him to. The BSM being something different from 'The Other Guy'.

[Shan Bruce Lee]

I think that Esau is the Smoke Monster. He's the evil force on the island, the yang to Jacob's yin. He's been taking the form of loved ones for years, to manipulate them -- Yemi, Boone, Alex, perhaps he's even Christian (after Jacob leaves the cabin). He gets Locke to sacrifice himself, gets him killed, replaces him when he comes back on Ajira 316, and uses Alex's image to convince Ben to do whatever "Locke" says.

That seems to be a growing theory among a lot of fans. I don't understand the almost automatic assumption everybody seems to have that Jacob is the good one though. Maybe it's the fact that Jacob was wearing white and Anti-Jacob was wearing black...?

Whatever the reason, I'm going the other way and saying Jacob is the villain.

[majorsal]

My thoughts for what they're worth:

Our Locke is dead. The Locke we see alive is a manifestation of the smoke monster. It chose Locke early on which is why Locke was never afraid of it, and thought it was beautiful and the reason it chose him was to find the loophole to destroy Jacob.

i don't like locke being dead, so i'm going to find ways to not make it so.

locke is one of the ppl jacob touched. and in the past, did it look like maybe jacob brought locke back to life?

so maybe jacob plans on helping locke?...

[the fifth man]

Perhaps they aren't allowed to kill one another or their both immortal and can't die at each others hands.

The whole Jacob/Esau thing is pretty fascinating to me. For example, take Locke. If he really died at Ben's hands and didn't come back to life, and it appears that way, then he kind of got played for a fool by both Jacob and Esau, didn't he? Very heavy religious themes, such as Ben as Job being asked to sacrifice everything without any answers from his God. I also assume Ben was the "loophole" Esau wanted, its not just enough that a man can kill Jacob, it has to be someone who followed him for a long, long time or was marked as special - otherwise Esua could have convinced/fooled a random person to kill Jacob. The conflict between Jacob and Esau is still mysterious to me.

I am sure we will find out next season.

[boyd18]

i'm actually starting to think that they did indeed reset things so to speak...i hate to say this, but i think its pretty clear...Juliet did die when she hit the hydrogen bomb...you dont have a death that emotional and then go and undo it when the new season comes around...however she is listed as appearing in season 6...if they did indeed reset things, Juliet is still an Other in Dharmaville and that could explain her appearing...but i dont think she'll remember anything that happened and here's why..

Jacob made visit's to each of the losies at certain points in there lives...when visiting each losties he makes it a point to touch them atleast once...at first i thought he touched a few indirectly (jack and sayid and sawyer) but he does actually touch them...the producers made it a point to show us this...the only lost character he didn't touch was Juliet...

i'm thinking that touch makes the losties immune to the reset and somehow they remember everything..Juliet wasn't touched so she wont remember...i'm also thinking Desmond is immune due to the rules of time not appling to him (according to daniel)...when season 6 starts, we'll learn that things have been reset, the Incident was caused by the losties and the plane does crash again...the only difference is Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Sayid, Hurley, and Jin and Sun remember everything...

now i'm not sure about Locke though...i'd like to think that the Locke we've known since the beginining of lost will be back and not Jacob's pal in his body, but i'm not sure...i'm also not sure about Miles...

of course this is just a theory...when Jacob said "there coming" he could very well mean the losties are returning to 2007 and there actions changed nothing...

[Alan Wake]

i'm actually starting to think that they did indeed reset things so to speak...i hate to say this, but i think its pretty clear...Juliet did die when she hit the hydrogen bomb...you dont have a death that emotional and then go and undo it when the new season comes around...however she is listed as appearing in season 6...if they did indeed reset things, Juliet is still an Other in Dharmaville and that could explain her appearing...but i dont think she'll remember anything that happened and here's why..

Jacob made visit's to each of the losies at certain points in there lives...when visiting each losties he makes it a point to touch them atleast once...at first i thought he touched a few indirectly (jack and sayid and sawyer) but he does actually touch them...the producers made it a point to show us this...the only lost character he didn't touch was Juliet...

i'm thinking that touch makes the losties immune to the reset and somehow they remember everything..Juliet wasn't touched so she wont remember...i'm also thinking Desmond is immune due to the rules of time not appling to him (according to daniel)...when season 6 starts, we'll learn that things have been reset, the Incident was caused by the losties and the plane does crash again...the only difference is Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Sayid, Hurley, and Jin and Sun remember everything...

now i'm not sure about Locke though...i'd like to think that the Locke we've known since the beginining of lost will be back and not Jacob's pal in his body, but i'm not sure...i'm also not sure about Miles...

of course this is just a theory...when Jacob said "there coming" he could very well mean the losties are returning to 2007 and there actions changed nothing...

Get ideas man... I love the way you're thinking. Although, when he said " there coming" I thought he was just talking about the group outside that we were waiting for locke and ben.

[Shan Bruce Lee]

Get ideas man... I love the way you're thinking. Although, when he said " there coming" I thought he was just talking about the group outside that we were waiting for locke and ben.

of course this is just a theory...when Jacob said "there coming" he could very well mean the losties are returning to 2007 and there actions changed nothing...

I thought he meant the Dharma 8 were coming back to the present. The people carrying Locke's body doesn't really fit for me because they were technically already there.