The Israel/Lebanon situation

[kmiller1610]

Do you know what an ad hominem is?

An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin, literally "argument against the person") or attacking the messenger, involves replying to an argument or assertion by attacking the person presenting the argument or assertion rather than the argument itself.

Yes and when someone says something close to what was said, I was attacking the arguement, not the person offering it.

"Originally Posted by Teylalover

Organized religion is the evil of the world; the cause for the constant wars, and the reason for hate and intolerance."

The arguement itself is so global, so broad, so non-discriminatory that it deserves attack. It is the worst kind of high level of generality nonesense that it deserves complete and utter scorn.

[DysfunctionalVeteran]

Israel should have known what would happen when they took over Arab land.

I'm sorry, I need to ask for clarification.

Are you talking about the lands that Israel captured in legitimate wars of self-defense and held as buffer zones?

[Giantevilhead]

An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin, literally "argument against the person") or attacking the messenger, involves replying to an argument or assertion by attacking the person presenting the argument or assertion rather than the argument itself.

Yes and when someone says something close to what was said, I was attacking the arguement, not the person offering it.

"Originally Posted by Teylalover

Organized religion is the evil of the world; the cause for the constant wars, and the reason for hate and intolerance."

The arguement itself is so global, so broad, so non-discriminatory that it deserves attack. It is the worst kind of high level of generality nonesense that it deserves complete and utter scorn.

Did you read what you posted? Let me post it here:

And your own tolerance is over flowing as is evident from your statement.

Notice how the statement says "And your own tolerance is over flowing as is evident from your statement." How is that not an ad hominem attack? Teylalover never claimed to be a paragon of virtue and tolerance. Teylalover's intolerance is in no way related to the perceived intolerance of religion.

[Dark Falcon]

It's merely warfare, and in war, innocent people die. Nobody likes it, and no one has to.

As for what the Israelis do? Your evidence? Or are you going by word of mouth by anti-semites and neonazis who try to blame everything on the Jews?

I saw a report on, I think it was CNN, that showed Israeli soldiers literally beating an innocent, unarmed man to death...WITH A HAMMER!! Do you
see any rightousness in that?! I certainly do not.

As for civilian deaths in war, it does happen, but it doesn't always
happen intentionally, it sometimes happens accidently.
There is no just reason for killing civilians, unless they intend on killing
your soldiers or are armed. If they are unarmed and haven't done
anything harmful, then killing them is PURE MURDER.

As for the Jews, I support them, I want Israel to have a home,
but NO ONE, I say again, NO ONE, whoever he/she is, has the
right to take the life of an innocent
person. If that person does take the life of an innocent person,
then he/she will have to carry that burden for the rest of his/her
life. Sure, he/she may sound happy about it, but deep down he/she
will probably have nightmares about it afterwards.

The Lebonese have had a long history of fighting against Israel. It's
because they are immature and just cannot accept the idea
of the Jews having a home in Palestine. I just want to yell at
those s--s of b-----s, "GROW UP!" It makes me want to smack
them in the face.

I HATE NAZICISM AND NEONAZICISM! They are both the same to me.
What happened during WWII SHOULD NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN!
And I am sorry if have scared any of you guys here today, but I had to
say this out loud.

[rarocks24]

saw a report on, I think it was CNN, that showed Israeli soldiers literally beating an innocent, unarmed man to death...WITH A HAMMER!! Do you
see any rightousness in that?! I certainly do not.

I don't think I said I thought it was righteous. Beyond that, do you know the psychological ramifications of war? Here you are, in the heat of battle, relying on basically pure instinct to survive, parts of your rationality begin to shut down. Whilst others are more capable of surpressing it, not everyone is. Basically, it's predator vs predator. And a very vivid image of the darkness in each human, and why war is so disgusting. Otherwise decent people do terrible things.

Do I think it's right, no. Should rationalization and control be taught in the military, yes. There are many things that should be taught in the military that isn't. One of which is controlling one's emotions and instincts, which too few people know how to do, and because of that, we get cases like this.

[Dark Falcon]

I don't think I said I thought it was righteous. Beyond that, do you know the psychological ramifications of war? Here you are, in the heat of battle, relying on basically pure instinct to survive, parts of your rationality begin to shut down. Whilst others are more capable of surpressing it, not everyone is. Basically, it's predator vs predator. And a very vivid image of the darkness in each human, and why war is so disgusting. Otherwise decent people do terrible things.

Do I think it's right, no. Should rationalization and control be taught in the military, yes. There are many things that should be taught in the military that isn't. One of which is controlling one's emotions and instincts, which too few people know how to do, and because of that, we get cases like this.

True, and btw, rarocks24, I was angry when I wrote this, sorry about that. You are right; soldiers need "rationalization and control". Not only that, they also need a sense of virtue, especially in intense situations where it is difficult to stay focused.

The Mei Lai massacre in Vietnam was, and is, an example of what soldiers
shouldn't do. There were men that were suffering from the trauma and
shellshock of war to a point where they lost their sense of sanity.
If it wasn't for the heroic efforts of one private, all those innocent
Vietnamese farmers would be dead. What I'm saying is, our soldiers
also need to look after each other, because, we're only human, we have
our blind spots.

[kmiller1610]

the perceived intolerance of religion.

"Organized religion is the evil of the world; the cause for the constant wars, and the reason for hate and intolerance"

Let's try it with some other words and see what YOU would say to the author:

Gay people are the evil of the world; the cause for constant wars, and the reason for hate and intolerance

or try this one

Democrats are the evil of the world; the cause for the constant wars, and the reason for hate and intolerance

or perhaps you would find intolerance in this blanket statement

Atheists are the evil of the world; the cause for the constant wars, and the reason for hate and intolerance

All of these statements, including the one on religion are overflowing with intellectual intolerance. All should be rejected out of hand as intolerant HATE SPEECH.

Now I would easily accept a more accurate statement like this one:

In the middle ages, The Catholic Church frequently acted out of bureaucratic and political self interest, meddled in the affairs of state and were often poor examples of their own avowed virtues and ideals. Then I would provide examples to illustrate my points.

Nobody with an ounce of education should accept statements like the one that started this discussion arc. NOBODY. It's not personal.

[LoneStar1836]

I saw a report on, I think it was CNN, that showed Israeli soldiers literally beating an innocent, unarmed man to death...WITH A HAMMER!! Do you
see any rightousness in that?! I certainly do not.

When did you see this? Was it just recently or was this like months/yrs ago? Photos or actual video footage?

Just asking cause after reading your comment, I remembered reading about a photo taken in 2000, that was used as propaganda that looked like it was depicting an Israeli soldier beating a Palestinian with a club. Turned out not to be true. Link to the story here.

[AGateFan]

When did you see this? Was it just recently or was this like months/yrs ago? Photos or actual video footage?

Just asking cause after reading your comment, I remembered reading about a photo taken in 2000, that was used as propaganda that looked like it was depicting an Israeli soldier beating a Palestinian with a club. Turned out not to be true. Link to the story here.

Thats the problem with stuff like that. You always here how some Cop tased or beat down some poor old "doing exactly what they were told" "innocent" person. Then the media will show the end of the tape where the "poor old innocent person" is getting it. And they will show it over and over and over. And then you see the FULL tape and you find out the person was not "innocent" or "doing what they were told".

Dont get me wrong. Power can corrupt and there are certainly cops and soliders that get corrupted and act like the criminals that they are and should get their come uppins. But the majority are good people following orders and doing what they thinkis best to best serve the public trust and they are just hammered on for doing their jobs. Its like if they dont run in to stop a gunman they are bad. If they do run in and shoot a gunman they are bad. Soliders get the same crp. Israeli soliders get it worse then others. I guess people expect they should just stand there an let people throw rocks at them or bomb them and never do anything about it. I think if you are stupid enough to throw a rock at someone with a gun you should be suprised when you don't get shot. That is like lesson number one I would teach my kid. It may not seem right for someone with a gun to shoot someone with a rock... unless you are someone getting your head beat in with a rock.

[Dark Falcon]

When did you see this? Was it just recently or was this like months/yrs ago? Photos or actual video footage?

Just asking cause after reading your comment, I remembered reading about a photo taken in 2000, that was used as propaganda that looked like it was depicting an Israeli soldier beating a Palestinian with a club. Turned out not to be true. Link to the story here.

It was 5 months ago when I was taking notes in government class.
I guess the media can lie about a couple of things. I hope that the
media DOES NOT, in ANY way, EUPHEMIZE the situations in the Middle
East! For example, if some people were killed, the news should say,
"there was great loss of life," rather than, "some violence broke out
earlier today."

[DysfunctionalVeteran]

I think if you are stupid enough to throw a rock at someone with a gun you should be suprised when you don't get shot.

It's also worth pointing out that most Westerners have led such sheltered lives that they not only haven't experienced any REAL violence; they forgot that a ROCK is a deadly weapon.

[rarocks24]

It was 5 months ago when I was taking notes in government class.
I guess the media can lie about a couple of things. I hope that the
media DOES NOT, in ANY way, EUPHEMIZE the situations in the Middle
East! For example, if some people were killed, the news should say,
"there was great loss of life," rather than, "some violence broke out
earlier today."

This happens every single day in the MSM, which is why I don't watch it.

[uknesvuinng]

"Organized religion is the evil of the world; the cause for the constant wars, and the reason for hate and intolerance"

Let's try it with some other words and see what YOU would say to the author:

Gay people are the evil of the world; the cause for constant wars, and the reason for hate and intolerance

or try this one

Democrats are the evil of the world; the cause for the constant wars, and the reason for hate and intolerance

or perhaps you would find intolerance in this blanket statement

Atheists are the evil of the world; the cause for the constant wars, and the reason for hate and intolerance

All of these statements, including the one on religion are overflowing with intellectual intolerance. All should be rejected out of hand as intolerant HATE SPEECH.

Now I would easily accept a more accurate statement like this one:

In the middle ages, The Catholic Church frequently acted out of bureaucratic and political self interest, meddled in the affairs of state and were often poor examples of their own avowed virtues and ideals. Then I would provide examples to illustrate my points.

Nobody with an ounce of education should accept statements like the one that started this discussion arc. NOBODY. It's not personal.

Arguments should be rejected because they are baseless or formed from bad thinking, not because they represent an unpopular opinion. If your statement towards Teylalover was not intended to refute her statement, it would not have been ad hominem, merely an obersvation based on her statement. By stating what you have, you have made the statement an ad homenim by saying it should be dismissed because of the motivation behind the statement, not the content of the statement.

Yes, the statement is incorrect, as there are religions that have never been involved in agressive actions (Buddhism springs to mind). Religion is often a scapegoat for violence and a tool for recruitment to engage in violence whose motivation does not originate with religion (The Crusades were about power-hungry popes, religion was just another vicitm). Humans are the source of "evil" in the world. Humans just like to have excuses to hide behind to justify it to themselves. And if you think removing one excuse will somehow change things, you underestimate the ingenuity of the human being.

[Deevil]

Actually, just a point of fact, there are some violent Buddhists sects (for lack of a better word) that do exist, and have existed in direct opposition to their tennants. As is most violence when it is born of religious doctrine.

[terrestrial_man]

Wow I cannot believe that someone put this thread up.
As I can see from the posts that the emphasis is on conflict and there is no settlement in sight. The irony is that there are positive steps that can resolve this crises permanently but no one has the courage to implement those steps. However this is not about my opinions or whether or not I or anyone else in the West has a right to render judgment on this situation. So then let someone from that region render judgment. Here is one link:
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/
The most important feature of this site are the images.
TAKE A GOOD LOOK. They are not pretty! No matter what side you are on, THE IMAGES ARE NOT PRETTY. All it takes is for one side to say NO MORE. Israel is the responsible party. It has to stop what it is doing irregardless of whether it is in the right or not. It is the responsible thing to do. Otherwise let it be known as The Murderer of Children. I will not consider it to be less unless it shows its remorse and stops the violence it is generating. NOW.