General Ship ( Relationship) Discussion

[shipper hannah]

I never said that relationships should be erased from their lives - that would make the characters entirely one dimensional. I was talking about on-screen romance. A different kettle of fish altogether

The show is sort of a representation of the characters lives, and by only having platonic relationships you imply that the characters only have platonic relationships which wouldn't be a true representation of them as human beings. I can't see how it's a different kettle of fish. Character drama is what develops and changes the characters through the seasons, and ship is part of that drama. You might not like lettuce on you BLT, but you can't expect a BLT to come without lettuce. Ok, bad analogy, but you get what I'm saying.

[MerryK]

The show is sort of a representation of the characters lives, and by only having platonic relationships you imply that the characters only have platonic relationships which wouldn't be a true representation of them as human beings. I can't see how it's a different kettle of fish. Character drama is what develops and changes the characters through the seasons, and ship is part of that drama. You might not like lettuce on you BLT, but you can't expect a BLT to come without lettuce. Ok, bad analogy, but you get what I'm saying.

I don't totally agree. Haven't you had friends who you knew had plenty of action, but it was never public except in very subtle ways? Yes, sometimes shows delve deep into the characters' private lives, but not often. Usually the camera could be the point of view of a friend/coworker/family member/random stranger on the street, so shippy displays on shows often feel out of place for me unless they're appropriately public, because it feels like we've gone too far into their private lives. You don't have to actually show their romantic lives for the understanding to be there that they have them—I do agree that there should be some acknowledgment of that side of characterization.

[Irish Eyes]

While it might be true that by season five of a show some characters would have found themselves in a relationship, is it really a good idea for the show to go there? Especially a show like SGA where they have basically given all the major ships (and even minor ships) moments over the years.

Spoilers season 4:

Spoiler:

In this season the Rodney/Katie played a bigger role. I did not like this ship, but tolerated it okay because it involved only one of the major characters and was played out mostly in the background.

The same could be said for Carson/Laura, which barely happened but what was there was in the background.

Spoilers season 5:

Spoiler:

Now in this upcoming season it appears they are flirting with not one, but two possibly three canon ships and it all involves major characters. First of all, I'm afraid it will be pushed too much and secondly, I have an aversion to two of this ships. Major aversion. Why all of a sudden would you decide to make one or two ships canon and risk alienating fans? At this point I could decide to just pack up my first three seasons (which I love) and take a hike. I really hope it doesn't come to that.

I came into this show for one pair, and happily found many others that I enjoyed as well. Sometimes one character fits with many different characters for me. But what I enjoy is finding the moments that make each couple special for me. I don't want these people all paired up so that we no longer get moments except between the couples.

I'm trying to remember if I've ever stopped watching a show because I didn't like where they took the relationships. This could be a first.

[Petra]

Okay, following some pieces of advice I decided to post here instead of the former anti-S/J thread, but this post is in response to the discussion over there. I read a lot of stuff and there are many points I'd like to address, but since it's impossible to do at once I guess I'll take it one step (or post ) at a time, starting from the most recent.

Guys over there mentioned that at the beginning Jack and Daniel was most often blocked together, but in later seasons that changed to Sam and Jack.

I didn't know that. But it's hardly a proof of forcing S/J ship on us, is it? It would be as easy for me to say that apparently in the first seasons TPTB shipped J/D, also blocking them together so the audience would notice their chemistry, but despite such measures it still didn't work so they had to find someone else. And since once they started with AT they haven't stopped, this must have worked.


Then there was a post saying that if Sam and Pete's relationship was kept low key, just a few scenes here and there the fans response would be better, but tPTB just couldn't help themselves.

I think this is the point where we all can agree: shippers, non-shippers and anti-shippers. If they wrote S/P like you said: better quality but much less in quantity I also wouldn't have had such a problem with it.

And finally..according to some antishippers Sam was pining for her boss while dating Pete, and that means she was cruel to a guy who's only fault was that he wasn't Jack.

Oh yeah, this is the line which finally pulled me out of lurkdom. please bear in mind that I'm not on any crusade, I don't intend to "make you see the light" or whatever, I'm just curious. For the life of me I can't figure out how can you (you as in anti-shippers) blame Sam for the relationship not working out and say Pete was blameless?

I agree Sam screwed up accepting Pete's proposal while still being in love with Jack; except I can't really condemn her for it as I don't think she realised it fully till Threads. It's not like she strung along Pete intentionally - because I think that's what you believe, isn't it? - IMO she really thought she loved him and really wanted to have a successfull relationship with him, and did everything in her power to reach this goal. It took Jack seeing someone else for her to understand how wrong she was, but making mistakes is in human nature so I don't have any problems with accepting it.

And yes, Pete..I hate how Pete was written as a manipulative, distrustfull, childish control freak and honestly don't understand how people can call him "sweet". He might have been sweet in "New Order", "Affinity" and parts of "Threads" IIRC (it's been a long time since I saw these eps), but in Chimera and parts of Threads he was..see above. His behaviour forced Sam to act more out of character in her 4 episodes with him than Jack in 8 seasons, and yet it doesn't seem to bother you. So again, my question is, how you see Pete?

Until this current rewatch, I hadn't really realized how much shipping (subtle or not) there was in season 7. It pops up in the strangest places and is brought up by people when I can't see any reason those people would have noticed it even if it was there (unless Sam and Jack are flirting a lot off-screen). The Jaffa woman in "Birthright" assumes Sam and Jack are having a relationship and Emmet Bregman seems to think so as well and both actually ask Sam about it. In both those instances I was just watching along all happy-go-lucky and they bring it up and I think "What?! Those people just met them. Why would they ask something like that?! Are they really being that obvious about it in front of perfect strangers?"

Callista, forgive me for disagreeing with you yet again. Firstly, to put things straight, the Jaffa woman (I forgot her name..Mala?) didn't noticed any "relationship" between Jack and Sam. She merely commented on their respect for each other, which given their military positions seems totally natural to me. There's nothing shippy about 2 officers respecting each other. It was Sam who jumped to the conclusion that she saw something more, which in turn confused the Jaffa. The way I see it, it means that Jack and Sam have a very proffesional relationship with each other off-world with potential allies around and take great care in making sure nothing inappropriate shows. So this scene confirmed that they behave like they should.

Secondly, I already commented on the Team thread that I think Bregman was totally unprepared for his interviews. He asked really dumb questions to everybody. He told Teal'c Jack's his superior, like Teal'c didn't already know that and then made things worse by talking about species; he asked Daniel what it felt like to die; and in this light I'm not surprised he was fishing for some romance in his interview with Sam. I don't think he was implying anything: after all he didn't even see them together, did he? He asked everybody about Jack, apparently thinking he was the biggest hero (it's pretty obvious throughout the episode) and since romance sells he probably thought that a woman gushing about the hero would score him some points in the future. Is it insulting to Sam? Yes, incredibly. But it's not a proof that Bregman saw anything inappropriate between S/J.

I guess it's enough for the first post. I'll leave "Threads", "Gemini" and the subtlety of S/J ship vs D/V for later, if someone responds to this first, that is. Just one last little thing.

On the anti-ship thread you often give season 6 as an example of season without the ship. You do realise it's one of the shippiest seasons, right? Personally I think only season 4 was more shippy..

[Callista]

Hi, col aga.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree about Mala and Bregman because I did see it as them noticing something (or thinking they did) and questioning Sam about it and I still do. (although, see below)

Regardless, I think I'll just stick here with what I don't like about "ships" among main characters in Stargate SG-1 (since I don't watch Atlantis) in general.

The absolute number one reason I like SG-1 is because I love the team feeling, whether that be a team of Jack, Sam, Daniel, Teal'c, Jonas, Vala, or Mitchell in whichever combination we've had. The number one reason I do not like shipping any combination of those characters is that in my eyes it takes away from that team feeling. It lessens the friendship bonds in order to focus on the romantic bonds. That lessens my enjoyment of the show. Most of the time it's just a distraction for me. On occasion (Divide and Conquer) it goes to such extremes that it actually makes me angry. There are also times, perhaps like the examples you talked about above, where it could be read as shippy or not but someone behind the scenes, whether it be the director or the writers or the producers or the music or lighting people or whomever, seems to really want the viewers to see it even if the characters don't necessarily mean it that way.

(Which I realize is a crazy thing to say since the characters don't mean anything that the real people behind the scenes don't want them to mean. But, I think fandom tends to separate the two and "blame the writing" rather than "blaming the character" as if the character has somehow stepped out of fiction and taken on a real life but is still being manipulated by the showrunners.)

After the team feeling, I also enjoy this show because of its moral/ethical questions. That's really it for me. I don't watch it for action/adventure and I don't watch it for romance. Other people I'm sure do watch it for those reasons. I'm sure there are many people who watch only for a certain actor or character.

Sometimes the two reasons I watch the show collide with each other. Such as in "The Other Side" and "Menace" where there were great moral/ethical questions, but they definitely came at the expense of the friendships. I happen to love those two episodes, but if that collision happens too often without another episode where reconciliation occurs, then I lose my enthusiasm for the show as a whole because my number one reason for liking it gets overshadowed. If it gets overshadowed by romance or the action, I'll lose enthusiasm all the more quickly.

I don't think too many people would disagree that seasons one through three were the real "team" seasons. (Of course, I may be wrong about that.)

For me, I started to lose interest in seasons four and five because I felt like there was a persistent lessening in the friendship bonds of the team as a whole. Some of that was due to Jack and Sam's relationship and some of that was due to the frequency of collisions I just mentioned.

When season seven rolled around the friendship/ethical problems collisions seem to have pretty much disappeared (and I think they stay that way for the rest of the show). But, the romantic stuff has really ramped up. In seven and eight its Jack and Sam. Later in season ten I know there are a lot of people who feel similarly but now its Daniel and Vala.

I'll admit that while I personally didn't want the Daniel/Vala relationship highlighted, it didn't get to where it bugged me as much as Sam and Jack. I think that's merely a matter of D/V only being one year where S/J went on for years and years and years. In both cases, though, I think all of those characters were ill-served by the focus on romance. If any of them had a low-key romance with someone else that took place for the most part off screen and was just referenced occasionally I don't have any problem with that at all. In fact, I think that would have made the show more realistic for at least some of them to have some sort of social life outside of work. I liked Jack with Kerry. I didn't mind Sam with Pete, I just didn't want to see so dang much of it! Vala and Tomin were great. I didn't even mind Cam and his high school sweetheart since it was kept to only one episode.

What I don't want to see is two team members in a romantic relationship that makes them seem to care less about their friends and coworkers. And that's what I see on this show when two main characters get shipped.

And holy moley this turned out to be one heckuva long post!!

[Petra]

Firstly, thanks for replying
Secondly, can we *please* lose the "col" in my screen name? I don't know what was I thinking when I chose it..

Thirdly, great post! I understand where are you coming from. I also love the team - I wouldn't post on the Team thread otherwise

It's a little hard to explain why I ship S/J. In principle I agree with you: romantic relations on most tv shows destroy friendships, alter the team dynamics and sideline the other characters. That's why S/J are the only characters in any tv show I ship. In the SG-verse I couldn't care less about ships in SGA, or who Teal'c will end up with. I have a problem with D/V, but more on this later.

I didn't ship them from the start, either. TBH I wasn't very fond of Sam in the first season, because I was afraid they'll ship her with Jack (the irony..). "Solitudes" was a turning point, when I saw them as friends first and foremost and started to really like Sam. In season 2 they both got a lot of character development and I started to think they would make a great couple after all and eventually I started to ship them sometime in season 3.

Anyway, where you and I differ, is the perception of the S/J ship specifically in the team context. Because I think it adds to the team dynamic, not detracts from it. It allowed for some scenes showcasing friendships, e.g Teal'c comforting Sam in Paradise Lost, Teal'c talking to Jack in Grace, Daniel and Jack talking in Divide and Conquer etc.

I also think that the relationship was handled very well up till Chimera and introduction of Pete, which turned it into soap opera, which I detested. But I maintain that it was because of S/P, not S/J. S/P stuff did more to destroy Sam's character than anything else in the series, IMO.

And I agree on the first 3 seasons being very teamy

I'll admit that while I personally didn't want the Daniel/Vala relationship highlighted, it didn't get to where it bugged me as much as Sam and Jack. I think that's merely a matter of D/V only being one year where S/J went on for years and years and years. In both cases, though, I think all of those characters were ill-served by the focus on romance. If any of them had a low-key romance with someone else that took place for the most part off screen and was just referenced occasionally I don't have any problem with that at all. In fact, I think that would have made the show more realistic for at least some of them to have some sort of social life outside of work. I liked Jack with Kerry. I didn't mind Sam with Pete, I just didn't want to see so dang much of it! Vala and Tomin were great. I didn't even mind Cam and his high school sweetheart since it was kept to only one episode.

See, I'm the opposite of you. While I love S/J, I really, really don't like D/V. I don't see any chemistry between them, their ship seems to be forced, makes both of them act OOC, sidelines the rest of the team and is very "in your face" for me. And all that in just 1 year, as you pointed out. I'm afraid to think what would happen in the next seasons.

I agree on Vala/Tomin and even Cam.

[Callista]

See, I'm the opposite of you. While I love S/J, I really, really don't like D/V. I don't see any chemistry between them, their ship seems to be forced, makes both of them act OOC, sidelines the rest of the team and is very "in your face" for me. And all that in just 1 year, as you pointed out. I'm afraid to think what would happen in the next seasons.

I can see why you thought of D/V that way because that's the way I think of both D/V and S/J.

I think your point about seeing chemistry is very important because it seems that that is far more subjective than people might at first think. I don't see any romantic chemistry at all between either couple. Some people think S/J have tons while D/V have none. Some are the opposite. Some think both couples are great. And still others are shipping everybody and their puppet. And all the while many of us kind of figuratively scratch our heads trying to figure out how the others could possibly think what they do.

I have no problem at all with however people want to perceive chemistry when it comes to fanfic or talking about it on the myriad of different ship threads. I guess my problem is that it is so devisive. It can become something of a competition almost. That's what makes me really wish TPTB would never have brought it up amongst the main characters in general. Because since it started out pretty much "ship-less" (at least in my view), I think the show attracted a lot of people for whom that was just fine and maybe even preferable. But then in changing the formula years in it seems to me that they put off many viewers in two ways. One, the ones like me that actively don't want it at all aren't happy. Two, anyone who maybe would have preferred a different grouping aren't happy.

When all is said and done, I still really like the show. I wouldn't talk about it so much if I didn't! But, the main character shipping did substantially detract from the main reason I like it and I find that when I watch certain episodes, I have to actively ignore large sections and I find that my view of some of those main characters has been tainted to where I don't like them as much because of it. I guess that's what's good about DVD's, though....I don't have to watch those episodes at all!

[JackandSamAddict]

See, I'm the opposite of you. While I love S/J, I really, really don't like D/V. I don't see any chemistry between them, their ship seems to be forced, makes both of them act OOC, sidelines the rest of the team and is very "in your face" for me. And all that in just 1 year, as you pointed out. I'm afraid to think what would happen in the next seasons.

I agree on Vala/Tomin and even Cam.

I agree, while I do ship S/J...I do not like D/V...it's just as you said, forced, IMHO. I thought it was too upfront. I like the subtlety of the S/J ship (IMHO). I even liked Vala/Tomin and Cam/Amy also, those two ships were in context and were pretty subtle as well.

Oh, and I never saw the chemistry between Daniel and Vala either. That is all.

[heliosphere]

Okay, I totally suck at trying to split quotes, but I'll try. If I snip things it's because I'm an idiot, not because I'm trying to make my point sound better, Aga.

It would be as easy for me to say that apparently in the first seasons TPTB shipped J/D, also blocking them together so the audience would notice their chemistry, but despite such measures it still didn't work so they had to find someone else. And since once they started with AT they haven't stopped, this must have worked.

I actually do think the blocking thing ends up a bit obvious and annoying at times. I really notice it because I look at canon scenes for material for various ship pairings. There are times it seems like every single time Sam and Jack are present in a room together, they must stand right next to each other or sit next to each other. Since S/J is one of the ships I like, I visit lots of places where people do keep running count on scenes where they are blocked together- I think in the discussion thread right now here at GW there might be a bit of tracking, I'll have to double check since I surf to a ton of sites.

But the fact is, if someone who ships it is noticing it as apparent, than those that are opposed to it are definitely going to notice it. Blocking them close means sometimes the bantering type dialog goes on between them only, like in some of the non-AT scenes in Continuum. (does continuum need to be spoilered still?)

Spoiler:

There are lots of S/J shippers who take the 'moonbase' comments as a shippy thing. Why not have Jack walk off with another character? He could have said it to Teal'c and it wouldn't make a difference, but they blocked him so he really only talked to Sam.

Oh yeah, this is the line which finally pulled me out of lurkdom. please bear in mind that I'm not on any crusade, I don't intend to "make you see the light" or whatever, I'm just curious. For the life of me I can't figure out how can you (you as in anti-shippers) blame Sam for the relationship not working out and say Pete was blameless?

Okay, I know this is directed at someone else, but I'm in the category where I blame both. I despise how both were written in this entire relationship, because I thought both Pete and Sam were written like dingbats in their own way. There are scenes in Threads and Lost City where I wanted to tear my eyeballs out for all the ways they portrayed it. I've watched films and shows where a woman dates/is engaged one man while still struggling with feelings for another. This is not how it's done and it's why I might ship S/J among my collection of Sam pairings, but I kind of hate how they do it in canon.

Callista, forgive me for disagreeing with you yet again. Firstly, to put things straight, the Jaffa woman (I forgot her name..Mala?) didn't noticed any "relationship" between Jack and Sam. She merely commented on their respect for each other, which given their military positions seems totally natural to me. There's nothing shippy about 2 officers respecting each other. It was Sam who jumped to the conclusion that she saw something more, which in turn confused the Jaffa. The way I see it, it means that Jack and Sam have a very proffesional relationship with each other off-world with potential allies around and take great care in making sure nothing inappropriate shows. So this scene confirmed that they behave like they should.

Secondly, I already commented on the Team thread that I think Bregman was totally unprepared for his interviews. He asked really dumb questions to everybody. He told Teal'c Jack's his superior, like Teal'c didn't already know that and then made things worse by talking about species; he asked Daniel what it felt like to die; and in this light I'm not surprised he was fishing for some romance in his interview with Sam. I don't think he was implying anything: after all he didn't even see them together, did he? He asked everybody about Jack, apparently thinking he was the biggest hero (it's pretty obvious throughout the episode) and since romance sells he probably thought that a woman gushing about the hero would score him some points in the future. Is it insulting to Sam? Yes, incredibly. But it's not a proof that Bregman saw anything inappropriate between S/J.

I'm afraid I have to agree with Callista here. I see a lot of these things, especially in season 7 and 8 as very blatant *insert reference to Sam and Jack's star-crossed but angsty love situation here* scenes. It grates on me just as much as some of the *insert observation on Daniel/Vala from other character POV* scenes in season 10. I count Daniel/Vala as one of the ships I enjoy as well, but there are times it's so embarrassingly ham-fisted, like when Landry is teasing Daniel about the not-a-date-date thing. I find a lot of very awkward situations for Sam and Jack where someone comments on them as ridiculous as well, like Bregman and Skaara and Jaffa lady I-don't-know-the-name-of either.

It smacks of a writer saying, "see see here! Character X can see that Sam and Jack or Daniel and Vala have incredible chemistry and therefore are SO meant for eachother and should be be Sooo married! Why can't you, you ship-hater fan?"

Having seen it develop more naturally and subtly on other shows, or even the more natural and subtle scenes on SG1 makes me wonder why they needed to do that. If the chemistry is so obvious other characters are commenting on it, they need to be separated from the same team then, since it could compromise it. Which is not the angle they're working at for at all, I know, but frat regs and workplace regs are there for a reason! If Bob the yak herder on planet PX8675309 is commenting on how it seems like Sam and Jack have great admiration for each other but doesn't say it about any other two characters, it looks like Bob Yackherder is seeing something a bit compromising.
**

I don't think I knew this thread existed! Very interesting, I'll have to go back and read more posts. I feel like an anomaly sometimes, because I do enjoy a lot of canon ships and theoretical ships for SG1 and some Atlantis characters. But I think quite a bit of the handling of the canon ships is done in ways that leave me scratching my head on why they chose that direction.

[Petra]

Okay, I totally suck at trying to split quotes, but I'll try. If I snip things it's because I'm an idiot, not because I'm trying to make my point sound better, Aga.

No worries, I'd never think you had some bad intentions And anyway you did good

I actually do think the blocking thing ends up a bit obvious and annoying at times. I really notice it because I look at canon scenes for material for various ship pairings. There are times it seems like every single time Sam and Jack are present in a room together, they must stand right next to each other or sit next to each other. Since S/J is one of the ships I like, I visit lots of places where people do keep running count on scenes where they are blocked together- I think in the discussion thread right now here at GW there might be a bit of tracking, I'll have to double check since I surf to a ton of sites.

Yeah, VSS counts how many times they sit next to each other in the briefings.
Huh, to be honest I've never noticed any blatant blocking. But my point still stands, it's rather an effect of their chemistry, not lack of it as the original poster suggested.

Okay, I know this is directed at someone else, but I'm in the category where I blame both. I despise how both were written in this entire relationship, because I thought both Pete and Sam were written like dingbats in their own way. There are scenes in Threads and Lost City where I wanted to tear my eyeballs out for all the ways they portrayed it. I've watched films and shows where a woman dates/is engaged one man while still struggling with feelings for another. This is not how it's done and it's why I might ship S/J among my collection of Sam pairings, but I kind of hate how they do it in canon.

I can agree with this assessment. I'm not saying TPTB did the stellar job with S/J, and I think some best ship scenes came from the actors themselves.

I also hate how Sam was written in her relationship with Pete. There are no words to describe it. I think especially second part of Chimera made her look unprofessional, needy and frankly pathetic and she did make mistakes. But I also think Pete's behaviour was much worse and I don't understand (but I want to, hence posts in this thread) fans who say Pete was the best guy in the world, behaved wonderfully and it was mean Sam who dumped him without any reason.

*snipped for length*

It smacks of a writer saying, "see see here! Character X can see that Sam and Jack or Daniel and Vala have incredible chemistry and therefore are SO meant for eachother and should be be Sooo married! Why can't you, you ship-hater fan?"

I can definitely see your point. But in case of the two examples above I just can't agree. Mala (let's call her that, shall we?) said distinctly "respect" and seeing that she came from a planet where women were opressed and obviously treated worse than men it makes more sense to me that she'd pick up on respect with which a man in command treated his female subordinate rather than some vague UST or whatever.

And in case of Bregman: he never even saw them together, how could he picked up on some undercurrents between them?

Maybe you have some other examples?

I don't think I knew this thread existed! Very interesting, I'll have to go back and read more posts. I feel like an anomaly sometimes, because I do enjoy a lot of canon ships and theoretical ships for SG1 and some Atlantis characters. But I think quite a bit of the handling of the canon ships is done in ways that leave me scratching my head on why they chose that direction.

Yeah, guys on the former anti-ship thread pointed me here, otherwise I wouldn't know about it either. Thanks for posting.

[Khentkawes]

Hmmmm... I just thought I'd check in to see what kind of conversation was going on here. I didn't read back very far, but there have been some interesting points.

See, I'm the opposite of you. While I love S/J, I really, really don't like D/V. I don't see any chemistry between them, their ship seems to be forced, makes both of them act OOC, sidelines the rest of the team and is very "in your face" for me. And all that in just 1 year, as you pointed out. I'm afraid to think what would happen in the next seasons.

But you see, we have some common ground here! Because that's exactly how I feel about S/J. I know you don't feel the same way, but for the sake of understanding... I can see where you would feel that way about D/V. I have mixed feelings about it myself, but I felt like I could ignore it when it began to irritate me, because I would just pretend it was purely friendship (sometimes that was easy, and sometimes it took a bit of creative imagination ). But think of it this way... you felt that way for 1 season (or 1 and a half? if you count season 9). Those of us who felt the same way about S/J, we felt that way for at least 5 seasons. Now I'm not trying to diminish or dismiss your feelings at all. Honestly, if there had been more D/V stuff in later seasons, I probably wouldn't have liked it one bit. But my point is that if those who dislike S/J come off rather strong at times, it's probably because of how long it went on.

I have no problem at all with however people want to perceive chemistry when it comes to fanfic or talking about it on the myriad of different ship threads. I guess my problem is that it is so devisive. It can become something of a competition almost. That's what makes me really wish TPTB would never have brought it up amongst the main characters in general.

That's my view, exactly. I don't really like ship in most shows, because I'm just not that interested in it. But honestly, I expect to find some pointless shipping on other shows. I roll my eyes at it, and try to ignore it. The reason it bothers me in SG-1 is that I was attracted to the show because of the team, the characters, and their friendships. I liked it because there wasn't a big romantic angle. Then I started watching more and saw more S/J ship creeping in. So I felt disillusioned. Which is probably why I have a stronger reaction to it on this show then on any other.

I actually do think the blocking thing ends up a bit obvious and annoying at times. I really notice it because I look at canon scenes for material for various ship pairings. There are times it seems like every single time Sam and Jack are present in a room together, they must stand right next to each other or sit next to each other.

I have to agree with this too. And that's why I feel like it disrupts the team dynamic. People often cite the way Daniel and Vala were paired up over season 9 and 10 (not the romantic "pairing up," just the fact that they shared many scenes with each other, and were often standing or sitting next to each other in group shots), but the same thing is true for Sam and Jack from about season 4-8. They were blocked together in the same way that Daniel and Vala were, from what I can recall.

But the fact is, if someone who ships it is noticing it as apparent, than those that are opposed to it are definitely going to notice it. Blocking them close means sometimes the bantering type dialog goes on between them only, like in some of the non-AT scenes in Continuum. (does continuum need to be spoilered still?)

Spoiler:

There are lots of S/J shippers who take the 'moonbase' comments as a shippy thing. Why not have Jack walk off with another character? He could have said it to Teal'c and it wouldn't make a difference, but they blocked him so he really only talked to Sam.

Yes. That's an example of a scene where they consciously paired up Jack and Sam... and IMO, it seemed out of place and strange. Also... (discussion of Continuum)

Spoiler:

Since it was one of the last scenes of the movie, it felt like they were implying that Jack was only there as an arm decoration for Sam. And since the final scene had neither Jack nor Sam, it simply reinforced the division between the team. The "team" was Cam, Daniel, and Teal'c, in the end. Then there was Vala who apparently didn't fit anywhere. Sam was part of the team throughout the movie, but in the end she goes off with her man instead of interacting with her teammates.

Now you may think I'm making a big deal out of a small thing, but all they would have needed to do was have Cam, Daniel, Teal'c, Sam, and Jack in the final scene, maybe as they're walking through the corridors on their way to lunch. That would have brought back the team feeling. And since writers are usually very careful with their finals scenes (because they leave the final lasting impression on the audience), I can't see this as an innocent little writing/directing decision. IMHO, it was a conscious attempt to break up the team.

I wouldn't have been bothered by the way they blocked Jack and Sam together, if they had somehow reincorporated them back into the team at the end. But they didn't. Which is why the blocking interfered with my enjoyment of the team.

This is just one example, of course. I could provide others from many different seasons. And I know not everyone felt this way, but it's how I feel about it. I would feel the same way if it was Daniel and Vala being placed together at the end of the movie. Or if it was Sam and Cam. Or Sam and Teal'c. Heck, I would feel the same way if it was Daniel and Teal'c.

Okay, I know this is directed at someone else, but I'm in the category where I blame both. I despise how both were written in this entire relationship, because I thought both Pete and Sam were written like dingbats in their own way.

I don't know who that comment was directed at, but as one who frequently blames Sam for that relationship, maybe I should explain myself. I do think they were both written somewhat sloppily. I don't think Pete was a stalker, but I would agree that both Sam and Pete were written poorly and that as characters, they both made mistakes. So I would blame them both. But, I don't hate Pete as a character. I think he had some potential. So I sometimes might come off as blaming Sam for the relationship, simply because I'm trying to defend Pete. I get a little tired of all the hate directed at Stalker!Pete, so I might err too far in the other direction to make up for it.

It smacks of a writer saying, "see see here! Character X can see that Sam and Jack or Daniel and Vala have incredible chemistry and therefore are SO meant for eachother and should be be Sooo married! Why can't you, you ship-hater fan?"

Hehe. Yes. It does feel like that, doesn't it? I think that's why fans who dislike a particular ship (any ship) always say it feels forced. I've heard it from fans who dislike S/J, D/V, McKeller, Shep/Weir, Shep/Teyla, etc. Everyone says it. The writers can never "force" someone to see a ship. Probably because it depends on whether or not you perceive "chemistry," which is a very elusive and subjective thing that no one can precisely define.

[Petra]

But you see, we have some common ground here! Because that's exactly how I feel about S/J. I know you don't feel the same way, but for the sake of understanding... I can see where you would feel that way about D/V. I have mixed feelings about it myself, but I felt like I could ignore it when it began to irritate me, because I would just pretend it was purely friendship (sometimes that was easy, and sometimes it took a bit of creative imagination ). But think of it this way... you felt that way for 1 season (or 1 and a half? if you count season 9). Those of us who felt the same way about S/J, we felt that way for at least 5 seasons. Now I'm not trying to diminish or dismiss your feelings at all. Honestly, if there had been more D/V stuff in later seasons, I probably wouldn't have liked it one bit. But my point is that if those who dislike S/J come off rather strong at times, it's probably because of how long it went on.

5 seasons? I'd say rather 3, because you guys always say seasons 5&6 didn't have any ship

So okay, I can understand where are you coming from.

For the record I'm also not thrilled at how the ship was handled in seasons 7-8 - too soap operish for my taste for one, and also "in your face", except, as I've said many times - IMO it had more to do with Pete than with Jack. Sam was romancing with Pete in Chimera, than she had a huge dillema whether or not to marry him, then she was introducing him to her father, buying a house etc. - and where was Jack at the time? In the whole grand ship arc he had 2-3 scenes with her in the entire season.

I also tried to ignore Daniel/Vala thing. I guess being a S/J shipper made me more sympathetic to other ships on the show. Personally I don't like D/V but there are folks who like it so I could tolerate it and pretend it didn't exist. Ditto on McKeller thing. But it sometimes seems that anti S/J shippers just like to make themselves miserable and find ship in places even the shippers don't see it. I don't mean to offend, but this is how it looks like to me.

That's my view, exactly. I don't really like ship in most shows, because I'm just not that interested in it. But honestly, I expect to find some pointless shipping on other shows. I roll my eyes at it, and try to ignore it. The reason it bothers me in SG-1 is that I was attracted to the show because of the team, the characters, and their friendships. I liked it because there wasn't a big romantic angle. Then I started watching more and saw more S/J ship creeping in. So I felt disillusioned. Which is probably why I have a stronger reaction to it on this show then on any other.

I guess it's a matter of perception and we'll have to agree to disagree. As I said for me S/J ship is one of the elements enriching the team and their interactions which is probably one of the main reasons I like it. It allows for team interactions. Perfect example is Teal'c comforting Sam in PL or Teal'c trying to get Jack to talk in Grace. And to compare: did we have scenes like that in relation to D/V, when some other team member comforted one of them because the other was in danger (apart from that painful scene in The Quest where Mitchell gives a speech on how hard is just watching others sacrificing themselves yadda yadda)?

This is just one example, of course. I could provide others from many different seasons. And I know not everyone felt this way, but it's how I feel about it. I would feel the same way if it was Daniel and Vala being placed together at the end of the movie. Or if it was Sam and Cam. Or Sam and Teal'c. Heck, I would feel the same way if it was Daniel and Teal'c.

I snipped your whole point on the blocking to save space, sorry.

I respect your opinion. You are consistently talking about the team, and I admire that Now, if the team was blocked together right from the beginning and then TPTB switched to S/J I would have agreed with you, despite being a shipper.
But the argument was, that at the beginning Jack and Daniel was constantly blocked together and after a few years they switched to J/S. So why is blocking J/D together teamy, and J/S not? It looks to me like double standards, especially since the whole point was brought up by J/D slasher (at least I think so; if I'm wrong I apologise). As long as her favourite pairing was blocked together things were great, when TPTB switched to other pairing it was suddenly a very.bad.thing.
The sad truth is, the team was never blocked together and blaming S/J for it is ridiculous.

I don't know who that comment was directed at, but as one who frequently blames Sam for that relationship, maybe I should explain myself. I do think they were both written somewhat sloppily. I don't think Pete was a stalker, but I would agree that both Sam and Pete were written poorly and that as characters, they both made mistakes. So I would blame them both. But, I don't hate Pete as a character. I think he had some potential. So I sometimes might come off as blaming Sam for the relationship, simply because I'm trying to defend Pete. I get a little tired of all the hate directed at Stalker!Pete, so I might err too far in the other direction to make up for it.

The question was directed at the antis in general

And it may come as a shock but in general I agree. As I said IMO they both made mistakes (and the whole storyline made Sam look very bad, and i hate it) and I'm perfectly happy to agree on this.

As for the stalker part - well, I believe he was (in Chimera) but I'm biased by my RL experiences. I knew a few guys behaving like him who turned out pretty nasty, so I'm a little oversensitive.

I totally understand "going too far in the other direction" when defending something/someone - as we all know I'm guilty of this myself - so no problem here. But I have yet to read some convincing argument why Pete's actions in Chimera weren't wrong.

Again, I don't mean to offend, but for me it's this pesky double standard again. Sam being in love with a guy who happens to be her CO is demeaning to her character purely because he's her CO. But Sam putting up with a civilian guy who doesn't trust nor believe her, storms out of the house after she tells him she can't talk about her classified work, who does background check on her, follows her around and then crashes ambush at her work not only ending up injured himself but also endangering her teammates - is perfectly ok. No harm done. As long as the guy isn't her CO she can accept all this and it isn't demeaning to her at all. Right.

And it wasn't only Pete. I just watched Ripple Effect yesterday and for the first part of the episode Sam acts like a love struck teenager around Martouf, ignoring everybody else, Janet included. Yet I don't see antishippers complaining.

Getting back on subject, I agree Pete had potential. I also agree the shippers can be a little too severe in their opinions and can bash characters only because they dared to hook up with Jack or Sam (for example, I never understood all the hate Laira is getting). But in Pete's case the writers shoot themselves in the foot, because Pete was introduced so badly that IMO he deserved some of the hatred he got. "Some" means I totally understand why people can't stand him, but I'm still against bashing him/killing him in fanfics etc.

I admit he was written better in season 8 though.

Hehe. Yes. It does feel like that, doesn't it? I think that's why fans who dislike a particular ship (any ship) always say it feels forced. I've heard it from fans who dislike S/J, D/V, McKeller, Shep/Weir, Shep/Teyla, etc. Everyone says it. The writers can never "force" someone to see a ship. Probably because it depends on whether or not you perceive "chemistry," which is a very elusive and subjective thing that no one can precisely define.

Agreed. Chemistry is the most important factor, I think. I'm willing to forgive some terrible ship scenes for S/J because I see the chemistry between them; I don't see it between D/V so I tend to be much harsher on them.

[Petra]

I had to divide this into 2 posts, since apparently it was too long. Lol, it's the first time something like this happened to me.

I copied this from another thread, as I really wanted to reply, but also give you guys some room to breath over there. I hope you don't mind.

My other problem with it is that Sam seems to think that fishing is all Jack wants to do. Just like Jack does not understand Sam's love of science (and Jack has no desire to understand it, apart from the astronomy part), I don't think Sam really understands Jack. I know people have mentioned before that Sam seems to buy Jack's dumb act a little more often than Daniel, Teal'c, and Hammond do (which I agree with), but she also seems to think that Jack is ready to retire... I know, at least in the infamous deleted scene from Atlantis, JM wrote Sam as saying that the "guy from Washington" who she had been seeing was almost ready to retire. Does Sam really believe that Jack's career isn't important to him anymore? Does she really believe that he's ready to become her domesticated house husband? Jack? Former special ops, hard-as-nails Jack O'Neill? I'll grant you that a lot of this retirement stuff, and Sam's attitude towards it, come from the inferences and statements made by shippers, but it still baffles my mind. I can't see Jack being happy with the retired life. Or, if he was retired, I could see him working as a consultant/adviser to the SGC/Pentagon/President/HWS, and in his off-time running some sort of intercity youth program (knowing how Jack feels about kids). I can never see Jack being inactive or sedentary.

For the bolded part: do you have some examples to prove it? I'm just curious, because shippers see this the opposite way. On the S/J Discussion Thread we are doing rewatch of the whole series, and although we are just nearing the end of the first season we already found scenes where it's Daniel who's surprised that Jack knows something while Sam isn't.

For example the telescope conversation at the beginning of Singularity. Daniel is shocked when Jack uses an astronomical term, Sam just smiles and reminds him that the Colonel doesn't use his telescope just to spy on his neighbours. Daniel is still disbelieving.

I believe that in later seasons they all knew Jack's dumbness was an act, Daniel certainly knows this in Abyss, but I'm pretty sure Sam caught on faster than Daniel. Unless you have evidence to prove me wrong..?

I also don't agree that Jack doesn't understand Sam's love for science. He might not share it (although given his interest in astronomy there might be something there) but that's a far cry from not understanding it. For example my ex-boyfriend was completely crazy about Japan manga. I never was interested in it but I understood it very well - I had my own fascination with sci-fi after all That's how I see the science issue between them.

As for Sam thinking Jack wants to retire and fish, I'm not sure why do you think that. It was never said or shown on the show. In the famous deleted scene Sam was rather saying that the guy was going to retire soon, indicating to me that she knew it for a fact not that she was hoping or just thinking he should do it. So apparently they talked about it.

And to be fair, the whole idea of retirement came from RDA. He said that he imagined Jack would retire to his cabin after the show ended, and if Jack or Sam would have to retire to be together than he volunteers. I'll be happy to provide exact quotes and sources after I finally get home.

Having said all that, I agree with you that retirement wouldn't suit him and he'd go crazy within weeks doing nothing. That's why I'm one of few people who were very happy about his promotion. Besides he must be quite good at his job in Washington also, otherwise he wouldn't get another promotion while working there. But there are ways to have both Sam and Jack together and still working, and personally this is how I imagine them. Together, but still active in the program.

I didn't really want RDA back either. Which surprised me, because he was one of my two favorite characters. But it was so nice to move on from the same old formulas, and the disintegrating team dynamic and start fresh... rebuild a new team dynamic. So when season 9 started, I was afraid I would dislike it, but I soon found I didn't even notice RDA's absence. I know that there are a lot of fans who think season 9 and 10 were utter drivel. And that's fine. But they can't tell me that it had no team dynamic or that it was complete crap. Because I see just the opposite. And bringing back RDA feels like an attempt to recapture the "old school" SG1 feel and an excuse to pretend seasons 9 and 10 never happened. Which I find somewhat distasteful and also completely unrealistic. You can't turn back time. Things chance. That's a natural part of life, even for a TV show. Trying to turn back time (metaphorically) rarely works out well.

Actually they can I'm sorry but one of the reasons I don't like seasons 9 and 10 is utter lack of team feeling. I see collegues who work in the same unit. i don't see "team" we had during first 8 years. (ok, I get the team feeling with Daniel, Sam and Teal'c - that's why I kept watching).

I don't think anyone of the TPTB tries to ignore the last 2 seasons. They are too much in love with them But try to put yourself in the shoes of fans who didn't like the new direction the show took. We had 2 years of the show we didn't particularly like. And then we got *2 movies* about the same new show. Isn't it time for us to get something we like for a change?

[jdjunkie]

I copied this from another thread, as I really wanted to reply, but also give you guys some room to breath over there. I hope you don't mind.

I can't speak for Khentkawes, whose post you were quoting, but I'm not sure about the etiquette of quoting a post from another thread - where the audience is quite different - in a thread which is open to posters of different persuasions.

Perhaps there's a reason he/she didn't post that comment in this thread.

I like to think that what is said in a thread stays there.

I can't see it being a popular move if we antis started posting quotes from the shipper threads and then discussing their content.

If Khentkawes is OK with it, then that's fine, and I know he/she posts more widely across the forum, discuss away!

But I'm not entirely comfortable with posts being taken out of their original threads, unless it's posts of the "OMG Michael and Amanda just won Leo awards!" You know, that kind of good thing.

[Petra]

Right, thanks for pointing it out. I really didn't think it would be a problem, but I can see your point so I'll clear this with Khent right away and I promise not to do it again. It's just that sometimes you bring up very interesting points in your anti thread but are reluctant to discuss them, so I thought this would be a better place, given that you guys pointed me here in the first place. I had no ill intentions.

I can't see it being a popular move if we antis started posting quotes from the shipper threads and then discussing their content.

True, but then again this is an open thread for both parties, not the S/J ship thread, so the comparison is a little unfair.