General Ship ( Relationship) Discussion

[poundpuppy29]

I like Sam and Barrett too and in one of my AU (I have many the curse of being a multishipper) they are together Pete didn't work for me I don't hate him but he wasn't the right guy for her.

[Killdeer]

Sorry, I was going off on a tangent

Oh. Sorry if I seemed snappish - didn't mean to.

As far as Sam/Cam is concerned, I guess....I didn't mind answering Col Aga's question, but I'm not really interested in doing an in-depth defense of the ship. I'm not OTP about it (I like the Sam/Barrett idea too), it's not canon and never will be, so it's just a fun thing. And I must confess that I'm with Melora on this one. What can I say? I was raised in Texas - I just have a weakness for those smooth-talkin' Southern boys.

[Khentkawes]

Then we have "The Light" and the whole argument on the beach, where if Teal'c hadn't interrupted who knows what would have happened.

Huh? Now I know you're watching a different show than I am. Since it has recently been proposed that non-shippers are oversensitive and object to ship where there is none (or find ship in scenes that even shippers see primarily as friendship), I'd like to take this moment to say... I see absolutely no ship in The Light.
But please, don't explain to me why it's shippy, because then I'll have to stick my fingers in my ears and sing "lalalalala!" I rather enjoy The Light and would like to continue thinking of it as a completely ship-free episode.

In regards to aga's question about how Sam/Cam would be different than Sam/Jack would be... I agree with Killdeer that the squick factor isn't there because Cam and Sam are equals in rank, and there's no indication of power dynamics at play. They are quite casual with each other, which is the main reason that I see chemistry there. (Side note: I also have a purely personal squick regarding couples where there's an age difference of a decade or more. It's just a personal thing with me. And for me, the age difference emphasizes the power/authority issues between Jack and Sam... whereas that isn't a problem for me with Cam/Sam). Still, I don't ship them, it's all theoretical. But if I was prone to shipping, Sam/Cam would be more appealing to me than Sam/Jack for the reasons listed above.

As for it's appropriateness... I think it would be inappropriate if they had a romantic relationship while they were still on the same team. Would it be appropriate for them to spend time together as friends? Yes, in certain circumstances. But I do not think it would be appropriate for them to, let's say, have dinner alone together at a fancy restaurant. Or, for instance, for Cam to be spending large amounts of time alone with Sam at her house (or her at his). I freely acknowledge that a lot of people won't agree with me about this. But I think that if their behavior could easily be misconstrued as an inappropriate romantic relationship... then I think they crossed the line of appropriate and professional behavior.

In the case of Sam and Cam they were friends before they joined the same team (based on their conversation in Avalon), and they aren't in a direct supervisor/supervised situation. So as long as they keep it casual and friendly, I don't see it as inappropriate. But still, there is certainly a line that should not be crossed.

I have no problem with Jack and Sam maintaining a friendly relationship or spending some time together as friends/colleagues. But I have said in the past (and I personally feel) that it would be inappropriate for them to spend significant amounts of time alone with each other. If other individuals are present (like their team) then I see absolutely no problem with it. But if they are alone together (especially if they are frequently alone together), it can be misconstrued as an inappropriate relationship and projects an air of impropriety. I feel the same way about these kind of situations in real life, because that is part of my personal belief system.

I'm not sure if that makes sense... I know it might sound like I'm old-fashioned or out of touch with reality or something. I do think that men and women can be friends without anything romantic or sexual occurring. But I think if those two friends also happen to be coworkers (and especially if one of them serves in a supervisory role) they have to be very careful that they do not act in a way that may suggest inappropriate conduct.

[JackandSamAddict]

LOL! I'm glad I'm not the only one who's thought about Sam/Barrett. I think it was Resurrection the first time I thought "That pairing might not be a bad idea." I'm also a little bit of a Sam/Cam fan, but that's probably going to get me kicked off this thread. *hides*

Heehee...I have always said that if I weren't such an S/J fan I would love to see Sam/Barrett.

[KatG]

Huh? Now I know you're watching a different show than I am. Since it has recently been proposed that non-shippers are oversensitive and object to ship where there is none (or find ship in scenes that even shippers see primarily as friendship), I'd like to take this moment to say... I see absolutely no ship in The Light.
But please, don't explain to me why it's shippy, because then I'll have to stick my fingers in my ears and sing "lalalalala!" I rather enjoy The Light and would like to continue thinking of it as a completely ship-free episode.

LOL. Are you sure? I'd be happy to expound on why I think "The Light" is a shippy episode.

[Khentkawes]

LOL. Are you sure? I'd be happy to expound on why I think "The Light" is a shippy episode.

Oh, yeah, I'm sure. I'm just going to live in my own little world over here. Sometimes, it seems, ignorance really is bliss.

[Killdeer]

So - a topic that was proposed in the Jack/Sam - Team Not Ship thread. I received permission to repost over here.

1) Do you think TV shows need romance?

And some additional questions of my own:

2) How much bearing does the presence or lack of romantic relationships have on your interest in or enjoyment of the show?

3) Is there a certain type of relationship that attracts you or bothers you more than others? This is a pretty broad question - feel free to interpret it however you like. For example, main character relationships vs main/recurring character relationships, teammate relationships, superior/subordinate relationships, lead character relationships vs lead/supporting character relationships? Flirty? Combative? Snarky? Partners? Best friends? Etc, etc, etc.....

4) How do you think the Stargate writers compare in writing romance vs the writers of other shows you've watched?

[KatG]

So - a topic that was proposed in the Jack/Sam - Team Not Ship thread. I received permission to repost over here.

Good questions:


1) Do you think TV shows need romance? They don't "need" it, however I certainly think it makes things more interesting.

And some additional questions of my own:

2) How much bearing does the presence or lack of romantic relationships have on your interest in or enjoyment of the show? I won't not watch a show because it doesn't have romantic relationship in it, however I think subconsciously I'm drawn to shows that do. Even where there isn't a clear cut romance, most of the shows I watch do have one or more couples that I could conceive of as "shipped", although I may not necessarily do so.

3) Is there a certain type of relationship that attracts you or bothers you more than others? This is a pretty broad question - feel free to interpret it however you like. For example, main character relationships vs main/recurring character relationships, teammate relationships, superior/subordinate relationships, lead character relationships vs lead/supporting character relationships? Flirty? Combative? Snarky? Partners? Best friends? Etc, etc, etc.....
Flirty, snarky, best friends/partners - I tend to like the romance to be understated and underlying, not necessarily always in your face. I like relationships that are not only romantic, but are fun at the same time, if that makes sense.

4) How do you think the Stargate writers compare in writing romance vs the writers of other shows you've watched? Overall, I would have to say they failed. While I believe that UST has to be maintained to some degree over the course of a show, it reaches a point where it becomes ridiculous and needs to be resolved, one way or the other. For instance, with Sam/Jack (my favorite btw in case you didn't know) - I reached a point where I just wanted them to say yay or nay - either one would have been fine, but we were past the point where it mattered in the "grand scheme" of things. Once Jack left, there should have been a resolution - instead here we are 12 years into the story and still no resolution. And don't even get me started on SGA "romances".

[SGLAB]

So - a topic that was proposed in the Jack/Sam - Team Not Ship thread. I received permission to repost over here.

1) Do you think TV shows need romance?

No

And some additional questions of my own:

2) How much bearing does the presence or lack of romantic relationships have on your interest in or enjoyment of the show?

I don't watch a show for the romances. If it's there and done to my taste I have no problem.

3) Is there a certain type of relationship that attracts you or bothers you more than others? This is a pretty broad question - feel free to interpret it however you like. For example, main character relationships vs main/recurring character relationships, teammate relationships, superior/subordinate relationships, lead character relationships vs lead/supporting character relationships? Flirty? Combative? Snarky? Partners? Best friends? Etc, etc, etc.....

If the show is about one thing and there are just little hints of attraction I can live with that. If they start playing at the idea of them getting together seriously, but only UST until the last five minutes of the last episode I dislike that.

I also dislike a main character dating someone then throwing curve balls at the relationship only for it to end quickly and then go through with the same scenerio over and over again with a different boyfriend/girlfriend a couple times a season.

I like characters that have normal relationships. They date, they get engaged and then married. I don't buy the idea that an established relationship spells doom for a show.

All that said I prefer shows about friendships.

4) How do you think the Stargate writers compare in writing romance vs the writers of other shows you've watched?

The Sam/Jack UST was played up too much at times to the detriment of the relationships of the rest of the team imo. In SGA there was too much focus on the relationship once they actually had two characters involved. Rodney/Jennifer)

[Lahela]

So - a topic that was proposed in the Jack/Sam - Team Not Ship thread. I received permission to repost over here...

Thanks for posting this

1) Do you think TV shows need romance?

No. I think it has its place in the right kind of show, but it certainly isn't necessary to my enjoyment of a show.

2) How much bearing does the presence or lack of romantic relationships have on your interest in or enjoyment of the show?

It depends on the show and the relationship. Something as "background" as Rodney and Katie didn't change SGA for me at all, but McKeller ruined it completely for me. At the same time, I'm a fanatical shipper in shows like ER and Gray's Anatomy - I can't see them working without it.

3) Is there a certain type of relationship that attracts you or bothers you more than others?

In Stargate? I despise ship between regular characters. Period. It totally destroys the dynamic for me. No team, action sidelined for ship, characters OOC... hate it to death. If it's between and regular and a non regular, then it's fine because it doesn't tend to become an overbearing and overwhelming topic, as long as it remains in the realms of tidbits.

4) How do you think the Stargate writers compare in writing romance vs the writers of other shows you've watched?

Absolutely atrocious

[Callista]

1) Do you think TV shows need romance?

Well, that depends on the type of show, but for an action/adventure show I'd say no.


2) How much bearing does the presence or lack of romantic relationships have on your interest in or enjoyment of the show?

I can't think of a single show that I've watched because of the romantic relationships. There are some where they don't bother me and some where they do, but none are enough cause to make me watch a show I wouldn't have watched otherwise.

3) Is there a certain type of relationship that attracts you or bothers you more than others? This is a pretty broad question - feel free to interpret it however you like. For example, main character relationships vs main/recurring character relationships, teammate relationships, superior/subordinate relationships, lead character relationships vs lead/supporting character relationships? Flirty? Combative? Snarky? Partners? Best friends? Etc, etc, etc.....

I like relationships where both people are equals (no smart, sexy wife/dumb, out-of-shape husband sit-coms for me), they respect and trust each other, and they are open and honest with each other. I don't like combative relationships or contrived misunderstandings or on-again/off-again romances or UST that stays unresolved for long periods of time. For example, on 'Friends' I was fine with Chandler and Monica but couldn't stand Ross and Rachel.

4) How do you think the Stargate writers compare in writing romance vs the writers of other shows you've watched?

I think they handled some of the side romances fine like Daniel/Shar'e, Jack/Sara, and Jack/Kerry. I don't at all like the big focus romances, though.

As far as in comparison with other shows, I can't really think of too many examples of good writing where the relationship actually made me want to see lots more of it. As I said in the other thread, I like Zoe/Wash but I didn't like Kylie/Simon or Mal/Inara. I was fine with Tom/B'Lana. I absolutely loath Jack/Sam on 'Without a Trace' and have quit watching that show because of it and I am really crossing my fingers that Tony/Ziva doesn't yank us around for years to come on 'NCIS'.

[marielabbott]

1) Do you think TV shows need romance?

No. I generally avoid shows if I know beforehand they will focus a lot on romance, even if otherwise they are excellent dramas/comedies/etc.

2) How much bearing does the presence or lack of romantic relationships have on your interest in or enjoyment of the show?

It depends on the show and the relationships. I can think of only one instance where I actively wanted onscreen confirmation of a romance that was only hinted at, but the lack of confirmation did not mar the enjoyment of the show for me. On the other hand, there are a number of such relationships that have diminished my pleasure in a show (McKeller being a prime example). If there is romance, I generally prefer hints. If I don't like the ship, I can then ignore it.

3) Is there a certain type of relationship that attracts you or bothers you more than others? This is a pretty broad question - feel free to interpret it however you like. For example, main character relationships vs main/recurring character relationships, teammate relationships, superior/subordinate relationships, lead character relationships vs lead/supporting character relationships? Flirty? Combative? Snarky? Partners? Best friends? Etc, etc, etc.....

I'm not a big fan of love triangles, especially those between main characters. All the "she's with him" this week, then "she's with the other guy" next week gets old very fast. It can become too much of a focus, and the character development can often suffer. It's also difficult to make everyone look "good" in a triangle, and that can be tough for a show if they're all central characters.

I hate affair kind of romances, where it's portrayed as true love, even if it means cheating on a spouse or boyfriend/girlfriend. I'm very uncomfortable with relationships where one individual holds substantial authority over the other, like student/teacher, supervisor/subordinate etc. (how I avoided all those Snape/Hermione fics like the plague when I was reading Harry Potter fic! I view student/teacher relationships as simply inappropriate; it's a breach of trust, imo.).

4) How do you think the Stargate writers compare in writing romance vs the writers of other shows you've watched?

I think in SGA they did fairly well with the shippy hints for the first three seasons (meaning they were usually subtle enough that I could happily ignore them and enjoy the friendships between the characters). Season four and five...not well at all. I can think of only one other ship on one other show that I disliked as much as what happened in those seasons.

[Melora]

1) Do you think TV shows need romance?

I don’t think a show necessarily needs romance. I watched and quite liked ST:TNG and it had very little romance. What little romance it had, I didn’t really care for. One of the reasons I think I can deal with the lack of romance in TNG is because it is set in a future that is very different from our present. The characters grew up in a quite different world from our own and clearly had different cultural beliefs as a result.

I do think having romance can add to a show, simply because it is realistic. In real life, people develop feelings for each other and sometimes fall in love. They usually don’t remain celibate and single for over ten years. People who work with each other sometimes get married and have kids. It happens quite frequently as far as I can tell.

I think it is unrealistic that none of the team members of SG-1 are married or seriously dating someone by the end of the series. One reviewer went so far as to call the SG-1 team “asexual.” The only relationships they seem to have are with the random alien guest star.

I am not saying that everyone has to be in a relationship to be “normal” or lead a fulfilling life. I’m just saying that being single for your entire life seems to be the exception and not the rule in our present society – the same culture that the SG-1 team comes from and inhabits when they are not off saving the world. This is especially true in American military culture. Seventy-four percent of commissioned officers are married and sixty percent of enlisted soldiers are (the average age of enlisted soldiers is around 23 years old). And about a third to a half of all female service members in the Air Force are married to other service members. I personally know very few military people who are not married with kids, and the ones who are single are usually fairly young.

To turn this question around a bit, why are romantic relationships (which are something that are very much a part of everyday life for most human beings) considered so anathema in sci-fi shows by some? Why do some fans feel characters have to be asexual and have only platonic relationships with one another? Because unless you are a priest, monk, or a nun, I can guarantee you that most people aren't satisfied with just having platonic relationships for the majority of their lives.

2) How much bearing does the presence or lack of romantic relationships have on your interest in or enjoyment of the show?

What KatG said. I feel pretty much the same way.

3) Is there a certain type of relationship that attracts you or bothers you more than others?

I don’t like male characters who act overly aggressive, physically or verbally abusive, or patronizing towards female characters. Though I have never seen a show with a truly abusive female character, I would imagine the reverse would also be true. I don’t really care for relationships that last one or two episodes (“kirking”) because they are usually just plot devices and rarely contribute to overall character development. I'm not a big fan of love triangles as they are usually an obvious and poor attempt to keep the UST going and the two people in the ship apart.

I really like deep abiding friendships depicted on shows as well, but I do not expect everyone to like each other equally and require that they constantly demonstrate how much they like each of their friends equally. That’s not very realistic either IMO. We all have friends who we are closer with than others. I have a few really good friends, but I would only consider two of them my best friends and only one is as close as a sister. I also value each friendship for different reasons and demonstrate my feelings for each friend in slightly different ways. And I’m sure it’s the same for them.

4) How do you think the Stargate writers compare in writing romance vs the writers of other shows you've watched?

I think they are average. I think they did a wonderful job with the SG-1 friendships (esp. Seasons 1-8). I think they did a fantastic job with S/J, esp. in Seasons 1-6 (I’m biased ). I think they failed with the characters on SGA in many ways, both in terms of friendships and romantic relationships.

The main problem I have always seen with the SG PTB is that they try to please everybody. They want to make the shippers happy but they don’t want to anger the anti-shippers. So they end up trying to keep both groups happy and end up not satisfying either one. As a result, they often end up with rather generic, bland relationships (both m/m and m/f) because they are not willing to take risks. Instead of being so worried about the fanbase, they need to just write realistically for the characters as they see fit. Let the different groups in the fandom take care of themselves. Heaven knows, each fan group knows more than well how to explain away the parts they don’t like.

[Petra]

1) Do you think TV shows need romance?

I would rather say I, personally, don't need a romance in a show. But frankly I can't think of any show which doesn't feature some sort of romance, whether in a form of UST, established relationship or "love interest of the week" formula. So apparently somebody thinks they do. And it's not confined to one genre either. Whether we take "Airwolf" action series from the 80s, or "Friends", sit-com from the 90s, or "Dexter", contemporary psychological thriller - they all had (have) some romantic plots.

2) How much bearing does the presence or lack of romantic relationships have on your interest in or enjoyment of the show?

Very little. As I said, S/J thing in SG-1 is an exception; in general I'm a non-shipper, meaning I don't really mind either way if it makes sense/develops characters/furthers the plot. I don't watch any show for a romance, but I also won't not watch because it has some romantic undercurrents.
Having said that, if the pairing in some show is written well or has extraordinary chemistry, I may enjoy the show more for it. It happened with Farscape for example, although I'm by no means Aeryn/John shipper.

3) Is there a certain type of relationship that attracts you or bothers you more than others? This is a pretty broad question - feel free to interpret it however you like. For example, main character relationships vs main/recurring character relationships, teammate relationships, superior/subordinate relationships, lead character relationships vs lead/supporting character relationships? Flirty? Combative? Snarky? Partners? Best friends? Etc, etc, etc.....

I don't think the status of a character (regular etc) matters at all. I like snarky, I like best friends scenario but I guess I have to agree with the others who said that both parties have to be equal, first and foremost. If they are written this way their working relationship isn't so important. That's why I have no problems with S/J on SG-1. Or Josh and his secretary in The West Wing (that is if it went somewhere - I saw only the first season and about a half of the second).
I hate the romances where the female is a "pretty, sweet idiot" or the love triangles or the abusiveness - pretty much everything was already mentioned. Oh yeah, and the UST lasting the whole show, like Moulder/Scully or Harm/Mac on JAG.

4) How do you think the Stargate writers compare in writing romance vs the writers of other shows you've watched?

I guess it depends on the pairing. I agree with Callista about one- episode romances like Jack/Laira (sorry fellow shippers ) or Daniel/Sha're.

I think Teal'c's marriage/romances were quite well done, assuming cheating is part of the Jaffa culture

I love S/J stuff in seasons 1-6 and the resolution from Threads/Moebius, but I think that Pete storyline in seasons 7-8 did a lot of damage, to both characters, their ship and the show. And for the sake of my sanity/dislike of loooong UST I do think S/J resolved it soon after Threads.
And this particular ship is hard to compare with any other on tv, because I don't know any other pair who would both be in the service and serve on the same team, and that made writing ship more difficult. But the first 6 years were brilliant.

As for the other pairings, I think TPTB dropped the ball. D/V was written very badly. And I've never seen any pairing on SGA up till McKeller thing. While I can be happy for Mckeller shippers and see the importance of their ship for the franchise (first "completed" ship between 2 regulars) the way it was written was abysmal.

So I'd say TPTB are "hit and miss" in their writing of relationships, with a lot more "hits" earlier in the show and a lot more "misses" lately.

[chrono trigger]

1) i dont think a show needs a romance at all in fact sometimes it ruins a show like lost for instance.

2)i find i get annoyed if it goes around in circles like jack/kate/sawyer/juliet.

3) i would have to say on-again/off-again romances bother me.

4) in SG1 i thought they did a good job as i rooted for sam/jack and daniel/vala but SGA and SGU have done a terrible job. for instance mckeller and scott/chloe.