General Ship ( Relationship) Discussion

[Khentkawes]

I think Khentkawes mentioned Barrett as an alternative to Pete for Sam and I heartily agree. The only problem with a relationship between Sam and Barrett is that she would probably have never dumped him.

I could easily see Sam and Barrett living happily ever after.

I don't see any problem with that. It would have been nice to see Sam in a successful relationship too (which sounds weird when I say it, because I'm the one who gets bored by romance plotlines... usually ).

To give credit where credit is due, it was aga who suggested Barrett as an alternative to Pete. I just agreed with her. I've always liked Barrett and wanted to see more of him.

So do we have Sam/Barrett shippers now? Wait... does he even have a first name? If so, why I can't I remember it?

[VSS]

I don't see any problem with that. It would have been nice to see Sam in a successful relationship too (which sounds weird when I say it, because I'm the one who gets bored by romance plotlines... usually ).

To give credit where credit is due, it was aga who suggested Barrett as an alternative to Pete. I just agreed with her. I've always liked Barrett and wanted to see more of him.

So do we have Sam/Barrett shippers now? Wait... does he even have a first name? If so, why I can't I remember it?

Malcolm.
I'm a closet Barrett/Sam shipper, myself. I would have loved him in place of Pete and it would have made infinitely more sense.

[Killdeer]

LOL! I'm glad I'm not the only one who's thought about Sam/Barrett. I think it was Resurrection the first time I thought "That pairing might not be a bad idea." I'm also a little bit of a Sam/Cam fan, but that's probably going to get me kicked off this thread. *hides*

[Callista]

I don't see any problem with that. It would have been nice to see Sam in a successful relationship too (which sounds weird when I say it, because I'm the one who gets bored by romance plotlines... usually ).

To give credit where credit is due, it was aga who suggested Barrett as an alternative to Pete. I just agreed with her. I've always liked Barrett and wanted to see more of him.

So do we have Sam/Barrett shippers now? Wait... does he even have a first name? If so, why I can't I remember it?

I think it's "Agent". EDIT: Dang! VSS beat me! And she has the real name!!

I also wouldn't have minded Sam and Barrett (though I'm certainly not going to call myself a shipper). My main problem has always been with main cast members romancing each other. I have no problem with love interests outside of the main team as long as they're not a major focus of the overall story.

[Khentkawes]

Malcolm.
I'm a closet Barrett/Sam shipper, myself. I would have loved him in place of Pete and it would have made infinitely more sense.

Ah! *facepalm* I knew that. I'll blame my forgetfulness on sleep deprivation and too much work. Thanks for reminding me.

The more I think about it, I think I could fully support a Sam/Barrett ship.

I also wouldn't have minded Sam and Barrett (though I'm certainly not going to call myself a shipper). My main problem has always been with main cast members romancing each other. I have no problem with love interests outside of the main team as long as they're not a major focus of the overall story.

Yeah, I think that's why it works for me. It wouldn't have to be a major focus, and I wouldn't have to think about how it might affect the team dynamics.

I'm also a little bit of a Sam/Cam fan, but that's probably going to get me kicked off this thread. *hides*

Psst. While I wouldn't fully ship them, because I still prefer their friendship, I do see some definite Sam/Cam chemistry. But don't tell anyone I said that. *hides*

[Melora]

Malcolm is a cutie.

I never understood why Sam kept turning him down. In Resurrection, I would have dumped Pete immediately and gone to dinner with Barrett. If Sam and Jack never get together, I would so hope that Barrett asks her out again. I also have a soft spot for Sam/Thor, but unfortunately Thor succumbed to the Black Widow curse.

That's not to say that Pete is not cute, by the way. I think he is but he just did some things that I don't think Sam would or should tolerate in Chimera.

Although I have some big problems with the command issue, I actually like Sam/Cam too. I'm embarrassed to admit that it's related to my liking Cam on mostly a superficial level. I have a thing for cute Southern guys who frequently lose their pants.

Gosh, I feel like I've joined a 12-step program for multi-shippers.

[Khentkawes]

Although I have some big problems with the command issue, I actually like Sam/Cam too. I'm embarrassed to admit that it's related to my liking Cam on mostly a superficial level. I have a thing for cute Southern guys who frequently lose their pants.

Forgive me while I sit over here laughing.

Gosh, I feel like I've joined a 12-step program for multi-shippers.

Imagine how I feel. I usually call myself a non-shipper... and here I am joining the party.

[Petra]

I also think that as human beings that Sam and Jack are equals. If Jack ever tried to abuse his power over Sam, I am quite comfortable believing that Sam would not stand by and take it. She follows orders and she trusts his command, but that is because he has earned her respect and he has never really given her a reason to doubt his judgment (Shades of Grey not withstanding). I also see Jack putting a huge amount of trust in Sam due to his respect for her. So although there is a power relationship there, I personally don't see it as such a huge obstacle to a future relationship when they are no longer boss/employee. To me, Sam has always had just as much power in their relationship as Jack.

I would go even further and say that Sam had actually more power over their relationship than Jack. I always believed Jack was a little afraid that if he made the first step in their relationship it could be perceived - by Sam and by others - as him taking advantage of his position, and that's why he left literally all decisions regarding "them" to Sam. I see him as waiting patiently untill she makes up her mind and decides how to preceed - as Melora said throughout season 4 he made his feelings and desires pretty obvious - and that's why in seasons 5 & 6 they maintain status quo. Then in season 7 sam starts to date Pete, so Jack's convinced he got his answer and he finally starts to date Kerry in season 8. But again he leaves everything in Sam's hands. When Kerry dumps him he just assures Sam he's still there for her and the final decision is hers, as always.

LOL! I'm glad I'm not the only one who's thought about Sam/Barrett. I think it was Resurrection the first time I thought "That pairing might not be a bad idea."

Well, I can't say I'm a Sam/Barrett shipper. Actually I'm not too fond of his character, but this has amazingly enough nothing to do with Sam. I mean Malcolm came into the show pretty late, when the whole "every male, alien or human, falls for Sam Carter" thing got really old. So at first I was annoyed that he seems to be just another one of those. Having said that, I also think he was absolutely the best out of all her suitors (apart from Jack of course ) and if Sam dated him instead of Pete I'd be quite happy. It was the ideal way to have Sam in a believable romantic relationship that wouldn't be so damaging and OoC for her as Pete's stuff.

So yeah, if Sam and Jack didn't end up together I could see her with Barret and Jack with Kerry (I liked her). Of course it's kinda moot point because I'm a die hard S/J shipper

For the record my issues with Barret have to do with how he was written in the NID storyline.

I'm also a little bit of a Sam/Cam fan, but that's probably going to get me kicked off this thread. *hides*

I'm not going to kick you or even throw anything at you. But I'd like some explanation..I mean the situation with Cam was pretty much the same as with Jack. He's also AF officer and, from what we are told, her CO. So I don't understand how can you say that her relationship with Jack would have to deal with power issues, but with Cam it would be ok?

I hope I don't sound too harsh, I don't mean to offend anyone.

[KatG]

Well, I think it would be tough to develop any real relationship if Sam's significant other didn't know about the SGC. All that secrecy would make for a weird relationship IMO. Yes, other people have relationships, but those are off-screen. They happen in reality with people in the military, but I think that kind of thing would be difficult to portray on screen... especially for a character like Sam who is so invested in her work. So I assume that's why the writers wanted Pete to find out about it. It solved some of their writing difficulties.

But I actually would have preferred Barrett, to be honest. I could see some potential there.

To give credit where credit is due, it was aga who suggested Barrett as an alternative to Pete. I just agreed with her. I've always liked Barrett and wanted to see more of him.

So do we have Sam/Barrett shippers now? Wait... does he even have a first name? If so, why I can't I remember it?

Count me in as another Sam/Barrett fan. I would much rather have seen Sam explore a relationship with Barrett than Pete. He has the security clearance, to know what's going on and to understand where Sam disappears to for days or weeks and why she comes back injured. It would also have negated the whole "Pete as a petulant whiner who gets mad because his girlfriend won't tell him what she does that top secret so he has to stalk her" storyline.

With that said, this topic did come up on the non-shipper thread, and my opinion on it (I won't presume to speak on behalf of anyone else) is that Sam gets a bit more criticism because she is more often the one who talks about ship. Or in other words, "shippy" scenes often have a greater focus on Sam. So it's just easier to talk about her behavior. Think of the scenes in Lost City or Threads. Sam goes to see Jack. She's the one who takes action. Even in D&C, Sam has to prompt Jack to say anything. Sam takes the initiative, and more often than not, she does the talking. So the focus of discussions often shifts to Sam rather than Jack, because (again IMO), more of the shippy lines come out of her mouth.

With that said... I'm not sure that I see any romantic feelings from Jack. But it is clear to me that he was aware of Sam's feelings for him.
.

Thanks for answering, Khentkawes.

I agree that gender stereotypes are really at the heart of this issue. It seems we just disagree about how we like those stereotypes to be depicted.

I have to say that I agree about Jack not showing much romantic interest in Sam but I would add - only in Seasons 7-8. In Season 4, Jack was the one who spoke openly about his feelings and acted on them (WoO kiss). Yes, he could have been just joking around with Sam when he kissed her, but what kind of a guy does that make him? To me, a man who kisses a woman as some kind of a joke is not a man who deserves respect. So I tend to think better of Jack and believe he really did have romantic feelings for Sam and kissed her because he knew it was his only chance to do it without jeopardizing Sam's career.

Actually, if you look back at Season 4-6, Sam is very guarded about any potential feelings she has for Jack. She never says she has romantic feelings for him; she never initiates a kiss or even a hug. She even shows some interest in other men (Orlin, Joe Faxon, Corso, Barrett), unlike Jack who doesn't even flirt with another woman until Kerry comes along. So, it really isn't until Season 7 when we actually get a better idea of her feelings for Jack.

I think after Entity, Jack backs off from any feelings he has for Sam, and any feeling from either one of them are very low key throughout S5/S6. Then with Grace in S7, when Sam basically goes through a "soul-searching" experience, and concludes that she needs to "get a life" with someone else, Jack backs off completely.

But, in Season 4, not only do we have Jack taking advantage of the time loop to kiss Sam, in D&C, the flashback to the cave where he's trying to get through the shield and realizes that he can't, to me it's very clear that he realizes exactly why he's so intent on saving her. Then we have BTS, when they start to get their memories back, Sam ends a sentence with Sir, and Jack very regretfully says "Sir?" as if realizing what that means. Then we have "The Light" and the whole argument on the beach, where if Teal'c hadn't interrupted who knows what would have happened.

Anyway, this is all based on my perception and what I personally see as evidence of Jack's feelings for Sam, as well as Sam's feelings for Jack. As always YMMV.

[Lahela]

I liked the idea of Sam and Barrett too. I thought they had great sparkage. But mostly I liked the idea of it because Barrett was outside the inner circle (as was Pete, but I didn't really feel anything for him until Sam dumped him - I didn't like the way she handled it).

[Killdeer]

I'm not going to kick you or even throw anything at you. But I'd like some explanation..I mean the situation with Cam was pretty much the same as with Jack. He's also AF officer and, from what we are told, her CO. So I don't understand how can you say that her relationship with Jack would have to deal with power issues, but with Cam it would be ok?

Very easily.

1. Sam and Cam are the same rank. Jack has always been at a higher rank than Sam.

2. Sam always addresses Cam by his name. She treats him as an equal - there's quite a bit of casualness and informality in their interactions. She does not defer to him as a superior officer. With Jack, she nearly always addresses Jack by "Sir" or by his rank. The rare times she hasn't, it's presented as an awkward moment. And while she may be more informal with him than with another CO, she still IMO defers to him in a way that signals their superior/subordinate relationship.

3. Cam's being CO was a technicality, acknowledged even by himself. He had no authority over Sam. Their relationship is one of co-workers and equals, similar to Sam and Daniel (I'm not comparing the strengths of the relationships, lest anyone chastise me on that - I'm just saying they're at the same level). Sam has never been and will never be Cam's subordinate. (I'm not going to debate the hows and whys of whether bringing Cam in as they did was an appropriate decision by the writers - that's for another thread.) Jack's being CO was a reality. He did have authority over Sam, and she was very clearly IMO his subordinate.

So yes, I see the power overtones as being completely different, due to my POV of Cam and Sam being on a equal footing in a way that Jack and Sam never were. Whether or not the relationship would be allowed under fraternization regs is a completely different issue. *shrugs* I hope that answers your question. To summarize, I suppose to me it was always very clear that Jack was Sam's boss. I never ever thought of Cam as Sam's boss, so it doesn't have the same squicky power implications for me.

[Lahela]

Would there not have still been the issue of Cam and Sam being on the same team? I'm not sure how these things work, but I recall it being a factor in the Sam/Jack thing.

[Killdeer]

Would there not have still been the issue of Cam and Sam being on the same team? I'm not sure how these things work, but I recall it being a factor in the Sam/Jack thing.

Maybe, probably. That wasn't her question though. I'd said earlier that I was squicked by the power overtones of a superior/subordinate romantic relationship, in this case Jack & Sam. Col Aga was asking (as I understood) why I wasn't similarly squicked by a Sam/Cam relationship, and my answer is that I don't see Sam and Cam as being Superior/Subordinate. Now, whether or not there would be other issues with the relationship is a different question altogether.

[Lahela]

Maybe, probably. That wasn't her question though. I'd said earlier that I was squicked by the power overtones of a superior/subordinate romantic relationship, in this case Jack & Sam. Col Aga was asking (as I understood) why I wasn't similarly squicked by a Sam/Cam relationship, and my answer is that I don't see Sam and Cam as being Superior/Subordinate. Now, whether or not there would be other issues with the relationship is a different question altogether.

Sorry, I was going off on a tangent

[Petra]

Very easily.

*snipped for length*

So yes, I see the power overtones as being completely different, due to my POV of Cam and Sam being on a equal footing in a way that Jack and Sam never were. Whether or not the relationship would be allowed under fraternization regs is a completely different issue. *shrugs* I hope that answers your question. To summarize, I suppose to me it was always very clear that Jack was Sam's boss. I never ever thought of Cam as Sam's boss, so it doesn't have the same squicky power implications for me.

Thanks for answering This actually makes sense and I concede the point.
EDIT: And yes Killdeer, you understood my question correctly

But it begs another question. It's not specifically for you, but for any anti who cares to answer.

I've often read that you (general you) think Sam and Jack couldn't be friends or even maintain personal *friendly* relations because of their working relationship. That it would be inappropriate for them to, say, meet for a beer after work. Yet again, this problem seems to vanish with Mitchell. Ok, I get that they are of the same rank and Cam's "commanding" is purely technical (I agree btw) but they are still AF officers and still both serve on the same team. So following your (again, general you) logic it also should be inappropriate for them to be friends/buddies even if they had been prior to being assigned to the same team. Especially since *technically* Sam is his subordinate.

For the record I don't really have the problem with it, but I share Melora's opinion that Jack and Sam have been pretty equal from the early times of the show and have been friends since late season 1. So if they have been friends Sam and Cam can too. I just don't understand the other way around: why it was ok for S/C and wrong for S/J.