General Ship ( Relationship) Discussion

[Madeleine]

Ship didn't destroy anything and it didn't affect the friendships.

Up until s7 I'd have agreed with you. During the second half of s7 though RDA's time was limited, and at the same time they were pushing ship harder than ever, with the result that Jack barely spoke to Teal'c or Daniel as they 'used up' all his screentime on Sam & Jack scenes.

Okay, there's no *automatic* "J/S=Jack not interacting with Teal'c or Daniel" rule, but that's what happened anyway. It might not be the case in s8 (I've seen only New Order, which was great) so I'm still pretty ready to go either way on the matter.

[Gategrrl]

I don't want this to come off harsh - please believe me- but you couldn't have been much into S/J ship in the first place if you could have become this angry and bitter and against it as you are now. (snip)

Wow, I know Bri has already answered this part of this post, but I'd just like to say that this comment to her just absolutely blows me away. Because she now has negative feelings to J&S ship means that what she originally believed wasn't valid and was not real? That it was LESS than what a True Shipper feels? Is there a ranking of how shippy one is, based on one's feelings and devotion to it? Does one have to take a test to get a J&S shippy membership card? So, if she and/or any other shipper who decides that the J&S ship isn't worth the cost to the rest of the show, or how *they* see the ship, they are worthless shippers?

I say again: wow.

[Jonisa]

After AP, I saw a turn-around. Daniel didn't like what he saw in the mirror that Shifu held up to him and things changed immediately.

I know this isn't exactly about ship, but this comment puzzled me, and I had to respond. Absolute Power was about Shifu showing Daniel his darkside? I thought the point was the knowledge of the Goa'uld would corrupt anyone , including Shifu himself. I didn't think the episode was specifically about Daniel's possibilities to go dark, just that he was the character they used to show what knowledge of the Goa'uld would do. To make it all about Daniel implies that if another character had gotten the knowledge of the Goa'uld they wouldn't have gone evil, IMO.

I'm going to respectfully disagree with you on this.

And back on topic, what about that ship? After all the wailing about 'Affinity', I've moved from a "I really don't give a crap about this ship stuff" viewer to a "Please please please ship go away forever" viewer. Yep, I've become an anti-shipper.

[keshou]

I think if J/S ship ends up getting a happy ending it will be because that's what TPTB want to do with the storyline and because they all seem to be J/S shippers. If their preference happens to be the same as a particular fan group does that mean they're endorsing them?? TPTB seem pretty aware of the fandom divide on this thing. That's why I have hopes it will end up being something subtle.

IMO they have the right to end the show as they want. Just as Bellasario ended Quantum Leap the way he wanted even though it seemed to tick off a great many fans. I was a huge John/Aeryn shipper (I think that's part of the reason I never liked J/S much, is because I was watching both shows at the same time and the J/S chemistry just paled in comparison) but I never doubted that David Kemper might just choose to split them up at the end or even kill off one or the other. I didn't *expect* or feel *entitled* to a happy ending for that couple just because I'd angsted over the couple since the beginning of the show. Still don't, I wibble in fear over what they're going to do to them in the miniseries. *g* But you know what, I'm just along for the ride!

It's interesting reading the comments about JM favoring the J/S shippers because I've read some fans comment that TPTB are catering to the other side. Why was the ship named the DJ? Because they were catering to the Daniel fans. Why were the script sides changed for Prometheus Unbound? Because they were catering to the comments from the Daniel fans. Really, they can't win at this point.

I can guarantee that if J/S don't get the big nod at the end there will be comments that TPTB catered to the anti-shippers. Likewise, I can guarantee that if J/S *do* get a happy ending there will be comments that TPTB catered to the shippers. Fandom is as predictable as the tide. I may have personally moved closer to the anti-ship camp (thanks season 7!) but I'm sure as heck going to try and be happy for the majorsals and shipperahoys of the world if they get their happy ending. I know this is important to them.

Frankly I think TPTB, once it became apparent there was such a divide in fandom, should have just stayed out of things online. For every olive branch held out to one side or the other, it just raised the level of acrimony. While I think JM is generous in giving his time and it's really fabulous of him to answer questions once in awhile I think it's best that he stick to general interaction with the websites. The behind the scenes production notes are the sort of thing that's interesting and appropriate.

[GateGipsy]

GW is quite a bit more ship-friendly(???) I guess I'd say than other boards. There are certainly a lot more J/S shippers here than in other places (which in and of itself is weird to me, having never seen a fandom reach the point of needing seperate forums for seperate points of view). I'm not saying that this is a bad thing, the presence of J/S shippers here... it's just a fact. There are more J/S shippers on GW than on any other major board in the fandom.

And where does Joe Malozzi post?

I have to ask what you're basing this on - your personal experience or have you researched it? You seem to be saying that the PTB have 'chosen' to 'side' with shippers on the basis that Joe Mallozzi has posted on GateWorld. And that GateWorld has a sizeable Ship population.

There are two things wrong with this.

Starting with the Joe Mallozzi assumption you've made. When he started posting in the Fandom he chose GateWorld and another forum - SG1 on Yahoo I think (sorry I never go to Yahoo forums as I don't like the format) stating that his reason for doing so was because these were the two biggest and most representative forums in the fandom.

Later, he moved from SG1 to OS. Presumably because SG1 stopped meeting his criteria, and OS did.

This year he hasn't posted on GateWorld, except once. I don't know if he's posted on OS, but I don't think he has. His only interaction in the fandom as far as I've been aware has been in website interviews, Q&As and the occaisional chat, all of which have been spread across many different websites, and not focussed just on one.

When he has done chats in the past with GateWorld he has always done one with GateWorld and one with OS, usually the GW one will be timed for the US time zones with the OS one timed for the UK time zones.

The majority of people who post here in the majority of threads are genners. Yes, there are shippers, but they aren't the majority of regulars on this forum. Of course we've never done a survey, but I've been a member of GW since it's beginnings on Delphi, and am pretty well aware of who is a regular and who isn't. We are a gen forum. A lot of shippers post here - but that does not make us a ship forum, anymore than having an expressed Daniel-friendly policy necessarily makes OS a Daniel forum rather than a gen forum.

A lot of shippers don't post here. The most prominant shippers in the fandom are absent from GateWorld. You'll only really ever find them on Ship forums. The most prominent Slash fans in the fandom are absent from GateWorld. You'll only really find them on Slash forums, or ones that have a clear stated policy about what you can post about Daniel. However, there are a lot of people where who are regulars and who are Daniel fans. That's why I'm a mod here (I'm a Danielite) and so is MC (who's a slasher).

One thing we don't have a lot of here at GW, and maybe that is where the ship perception comes from, is slash discussion. Partly that is because Darren has opted for a strictly PG rating, which can make it hard to have a proper slash conversation. So instead, a lot of people who are regulars on GW and who like slash, go elsewhere for slash conversations. But if you want to start one, why not? There is no restriction on the topics that are up for discussion here (as long as its PG). So if you feel there's too much ship, then it's up to you to change it!

[Jace021903]

I have to ask what you're basing this on - your personal experience or have you researched it? You seem to be saying that the PTB have 'chosen' to 'side' with shippers on the basis that Joe Mallozzi has posted on GateWorld. And that GateWorld has a sizeable Ship population.

JM can post or not post anywhere he pleases as far as I am concerned--I actually pretty much stay away from interviews and such that the powers that be are doing these days as it never fails to stir up something. (probably what they are going for)

Perception though is everything.

Spoilers for Affinity
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Sorry, I'm not up to snuff on the new spoiler procedure so bear with me.

When the spoilers came out for Affinity, there was great wailing and gnashing of teeth on the shipper thread--understandably.

JM showed up very quickly to reassure the shippers that what seemed to be happening really wouldn't.

That told me that there is no point in getting invested in Pete--it's hard to love a plot device.

Anyway the perception across the fandom is that he does favor one group over another--whether he does or not is not the issue really. He come across that way.

I agree with whoever said that the fandom would be better off if the powers that be stayed out of it.

Just my opinion,

Jace

[brihana25]

I just knew that was going to be taken wrong.

I have to ask what you're basing this on - your personal experience or have you researched it? You seem to be saying that the PTB have 'chosen' to 'side' with shippers on the basis that Joe Mallozzi has posted on GateWorld. And that GateWorld has a sizeable Ship population.

I didn't state anything as a definitive fact - though I can see how it would appear that I did. I said that TPTB were wrong to choose sides. What I should have said is that TPTB were wrong to give the impression that they have chosen sides.

Everything that I say should be taken with an implied "IMO," because no one knows anything for certain, most of all not me.

There are two things wrong with this.

Starting with the Joe Mallozzi assumption you've made. When he started posting in the Fandom he chose GateWorld and another forum - SG1 on Yahoo I think (sorry I never go to Yahoo forums as I don't like the format) stating that his reason for doing so was because these were the two biggest and most representative forums in the fandom.

Later, he moved from SG1 to OS. Presumably because SG1 stopped meeting his criteria, and OS did.

This year he hasn't posted on GateWorld, except once. I don't know if he's posted on OS, but I don't think he has. His only interaction in the fandom as far as I've been aware has been in website interviews, Q&As and the occaisional chat, all of which have been spread across many different websites, and not focussed just on one.

My contention is that he never should have done it at all, because of the perception of playing favorites.

Yes, it's wonderful that he took the time to drop by every now and again. Yes, it's great that he got out and interacted with the fans on a personal level. Yes, it's fantastic that he thought GW was a place he could come to do that. He should have acted in the past the way he's acting now - the occassional chat or Q&A and interviews.

I believe that, no matter how wonderful it may be that he did it, he should never have gotten involved in any of it, period. It was a really really bad idea.

The majority of people who post here in the majority of threads are genners. Yes, there are shippers, but they aren't the majority of regulars on this forum. Of course we've never done a survey, but I've been a member of GW since it's beginnings on Delphi, and am pretty well aware of who is a regular and who isn't. We are a gen forum. A lot of shippers post here - but that does not make us a ship forum, anymore than having an expressed Daniel-friendly policy necessarily makes OS a Daniel forum rather than a gen forum.

I never said GW was a ship forum. I said it was a ship-friendly forum. And that is based on my own personal observations. Some J/S shippers feel more comfortable here than they do on OS, and I don't necessarily blame them for that.

But I never said it was ship forum. Nor will I ever say that. Because if I came here and said that GW is a ship forum and that the posters here only want the "Jack and Sam O'Neill Show"... well... that would be no more accurate than the people who go to OS and say that it's only for Daniel fans and that everyone who posts there only wants the "Daniel Jackson Show."

A lot of shippers don't post here. The most prominant shippers in the fandom are absent from GateWorld. You'll only really ever find them on Ship forums. The most prominent Slash fans in the fandom are absent from GateWorld. You'll only really find them on Slash forums, or ones that have a clear stated policy about what you can post about Daniel. However, there are a lot of people where who are regulars and who are Daniel fans. That's why I'm a mod here (I'm a Danielite) and so is MC (who's a slasher).

Yes, I know the prominent ones aren't here. And yes, I know where they are. I know you're a Danielite, because I'm one too. And I know MC is a slasher.

But none of that has anything to do with the fact that there are a lot of J/S shippers here. There are. And they are very, very active. I never said that was a bad - in fact, I pointed out that it's not a bad thing, it's just different to me. I never said that there was no one here but J/S shippers, because just that fact that I am here makes that an untrue statement.

One thing we don't have a lot of here at GW, and maybe that is where the ship perception comes from, is slash discussion.

Actually, no, slash has nothing to do with it. What I said I based on the fact that of the roughly 180,000 posts on this board, 18,000 have been in the Jack/Sam ship thread. And that's without going through and counting each individual post in every thread about everything, and counting every J/S comment made in each of them. So at least 10% of the posts on GW are pro-J/S... if I did go through and count them all, that number would probably be closer to 25%.

So yes, when I see that such a high percentage of the posts are made by a certain group of people about a certain subject, then yes... I'm going to assume that this means that that subject is a favorite one, and that those posters are more active than the rest.

And I'm sure that if I were to dig through OS, I'd find roughly the same percentage are posts about Daniel. But that doesn't mean that OS is a Daniel-only forum by any means, nor does it mean that GW is a J/S shipper only forum.

But it's just as valid to say that GW is J/S shipper-friendly as it is to say that OS is Daniel-friendly... and that's all I said.

So instead, a lot of people who are regulars on GW and who like slash, go elsewhere for slash conversations. But if you want to start one, why not? There is no restriction on the topics that are up for discussion here (as long as its PG). So if you feel there's too much ship, then it's up to you to change it!

I never said there was too much. I said there is a lot. I didn't say I wanted the posters to change what they talk about, and I never would say that, because it's not my place to tell other fans what they can and cannot talk about.

Shipperahoy asked me a question about why I thought TPTB seem to have chosen sides in the fandom. I answered her. It wasn't a call to action, it wasn't an indictment of GW, and it wasn't a declaration that I want anything to change. All I did was explain how it's possible that to some people - myself included - it might appear that JM has chosen sides in something he had no business getting involved in in the first place.

And just completely and totally to satisfy my curiousity on this, because this is the fourth time this has happened to me in the past two days - why do you assume that because I make a statement about the presence of J/S shippers it means I must want to talk about slash instead?

[GateGipsy]

My apologies - you seem to have taken my post as a bit of an attack and it was merely meant as an explanation. I wasn't meaning to offend you in any way, nor was I meaning to come across as emotive.

I take your point about the Ship-friendly rather than shipper forum. I would argue that we're also for the same reason we're friendly for shippers, also Daniel-friendly, Jonas-Friendly etc.

As for slash - for some reason I had thought you were a slasher. Again, my bad. No I don't assume that because someone doesn't want to talk J/S they're slashers - I don't ship, but I'm not a slasher. I had though thought you were, so I must have got you mixed up with someone else. Mistakes do happen - I wouldn't read anything into it other than that.

I do read all posts as if they were an 'imo', however that doesn't instantly put a qualification of 'give an impression' for every statement a person makes. If that's what you want to mean to people then you're going to have to state that. Sorry, but IMO means just that - someone's opinion. I'm going to take that your opinion is exactly what you've said, and if I disagree with that opinion I'm going to say why I disagree. Which is what I did. I don't see why that was a problem. If you'd stated that it was your impression, I'd have given much the same answer but answering your 'impression' rather than your 'opinion'.

While I have mixed feelings about Joe's participation in discussions on forums such as GateWorld, I do really feel that one instance, where he made one post in a ship thread (which did not actually reassure the shippers in that thread judging by the discussion afterwards) is rather slim evidence on which to base your impression that TPTB have chosen sides. Especially given that Joe is just one half of a writing duo, who are just one part of the writers on the show - there are a large number of other writers, directors and producers making up the TPTB. And that doesn't even count the suits at MGM.

[brihana25]

My apologies - you seem to have taken my post as a bit of an attack and it was merely meant as an explanation. I wasn't meaning to offend you in any way, nor was I meaning to come across as emotive.

Actually, you didn't offend me at all. I was more afraid that I'd offended you, and that you'd perceived my initial post as an indictment or condemnation of GW, which it wasn't intended to be at all.

So my apologies in return if I seemed to be a bit reactionary in my response. I simply wanted to make it very, very clear where I was coming from.

I take your point about the Ship-friendly rather than shipper forum. I would argue that we're also for the same reason we're friendly for shippers, also Daniel-friendly, Jonas-Friendly etc.

I've not been uncomfortable with this board in general, so yes, I'd probably agree that the forum itself, on the whole, is pretty much friendly to everyone. There are some specific posters that I get the impression would just like me to go away, but that has nothing to do with the forum itself.

As for slash - for some reason I had thought you were a slasher. Again, my bad. No I don't assume that because someone doesn't want to talk J/S they're slashers - I don't ship, but I'm not a slasher. I had though thought you were, so I must have got you mixed up with someone else. Mistakes do happen - I wouldn't read anything into it other than that.

Actually, it just took me by surprise, more than anything. Because I'm not a slasher. Not even remotely. For onscreen and in my own fic, I'm as Gen as they come. I might throw in a little UST here and there, but that's as far as it goes for me. For reading, I'm mostly Gen, with a healthy dose of Shipper thrown in for good measure. And my vids are all over the spectrum - whatever strikes me as a good and entertaining interpretation of a song is what I do.

I was just really starting to wonder if I had "closet slasher" written on my forehead or something... because you're not the first person who's thought that. I was just hoping maybe you could tell me why that is.

I do read all posts as if they were an 'imo', however that doesn't instantly put a qualification of 'give an impression' for every statement a person makes. If that's what you want to mean to people then you're going to have to state that. Sorry, but IMO means just that - someone's opinion. I'm going to take that your opinion is exactly what you've said, and if I disagree with that opinion I'm going to say why I disagree. Which is what I did. I don't see why that was a problem. If you'd stated that it was your impression, I'd have given much the same answer but answering your 'impression' rather than your 'opinion'.

Definitely fair. I do the same, most of the time.

While I have mixed feelings about Joe's participation in discussions on forums such as GateWorld, I do really feel that one instance, where he made one post in a ship thread (which did not actually reassure the shippers in that thread judging by the discussion afterwards) is rather slim evidence on which to base your impression that TPTB have chosen sides. Especially given that Joe is just one half of a writing duo, who are just one part of the writers on the show - there are a large number of other writers, directors and producers making up the TPTB. And that doesn't even count the suits at MGM.

Actually, I didn't even know about him going in to reassure the shippers about Pete. I was talking generalities, not specific instances.

It's been my impression, from the hands-off policy that TPTB in other fandoms have exhibited, that having any person in "authority" over any aspect of the show get involved in any aspect of the fandom is just a bad idea. I think the whole reason that the ER fandom didn't splinter and split during the Luby/Carby era is that TPTB made a point of staying out of it. Had they gotten involved, and had they shown up in the Carby thread at f4f to tell us, "Don't worry... you'll be happy at the end of the season..," the result would have been absolute chaos, and the fandom would have fractured in ways that would have taken a whole lot of effort to repair.

And I think what's happened in SG-1 is the exact opposite. JM did get involved, and he has - most notably in the past, not so much now, no - given the impression that he favors one group of fans over the other. Even if he doesn't, even if he himself is a Genner or a Slasher or a Noromo (and from the fantastic job he did writing both Lockdown and New Order, any of those things is possible), the perception is still there. And that perception of favoritism is responsible for a lot of hard feelings between the fans.

Whether he intended it that way or not, I don't know. I can't know. There are certainly times I think it's intentional. But even if it is completely and totally by accident, and it's all one big huge misunderstanding... that doesn't change the fact that the impression has been given, and he hasn't really done anything to refute it.

[Dani347]

IMO they have the right to end the show as they want. Just as Bellasario ended Quantum Leap the way he wanted even though it seemed to tick off a great many fans.

Well, I'd say more accurately, they have the power to do what they want.

[Dani347]

Ship didn't destroy anything and it didn't affect the friendships.

In your opinion, it didn't. In other people's (including Ali's and mine) it did. You're no more right or wrong or than we are.

Again, I have no idea which Entity you watched.

Same one you watched. And, since there's no monolith in the fandom, the two of you interpreted it differently.

After AP, I saw a turn-around. Daniel didn't like what he saw in the mirror that Shifu held up to him and things changed immediately.

Jonisa already said how I feel. Anybody would have turned evil in those circumstances.

Even more, there's absolutely nothing in any of those eps to support any claim that any feelings that Jack had for Sam in any way affected his relationship with Daniel. You are projecting onto the show what you want to feel was the fault, rather than acknowledge the deliberate darkening of Daniel--made at MS' request--and the fact that it caused a rocky patch in the friendship between Jack and Daniel.

Woah. I don't think I'll say how that came off. Lets say MS asked to darken Daniel. Did he ask that there be a rift between Jack and Daniel as a result? That darkening Daniel would automatically cause a rift, and there was no way to avoid it? And, sorry, but you just don't see anything that supports the claim that feelings between Jack and Sam didn't cause a rift between Jack and Daniel. That's your interpretation of the show, but to assert your interpretation as fact, and to imply that someone else is wrong, and just aren't seeing the true way is, well, like I said, I won't say how that whole section came off to me. And, let me also say that for me, J/S ship affected Jack and Daniel's friendship in the last half of last season, way after all the events up to AP were over. So, that didn't even come into play when I felt (perfectly validly, I might add, even if others disagree) the push of J/S was detrimental to Jack and Daniel's friendship.

And if they stopped having little physical touches between Jack and Daniel, look to slash for that. There is no canonical slash--even in subtext--in this show, and when slash fans started pushing photo manips on the actors at cons, it hit the fan. MS himself made it clear that they've backed off from some things so as not to be grist for the slash mill.

Oh brother. Not to be a grist for the slash mill? Not a good idea for whoever showed any manips at cons, but in the end, so what? If they stop any signs of physical affection between Jack and Daniel (Which isn't a slash thing anyway) was that supposed to stop slashers? They stop, and suddenly slashers would go away? They stop, and any other person who gets the idea to show a manip to an actor will suddenly have a change of heart? If Jack and Sam never get together, and they make it clear that they don't even like each other anymore, will shippers stop shipping? If they become scared of J/S shippers (which makes no more sense than being scared of J/D slashers, which is the only reason I can think that slashers would have any affect on stopping the things on the show) and stop an aspect of the relationship between them (relationship in the non romantic sense) from the start, would that be fair to the people who see Jack and Sam as friends, and are upset that they lose just because someone has a problem with shippers? Anymore than it's fair to the J/D friendshippers out there. And, if someone goes to a con with a shirt of J/S inflagrante, would it make sense for TPTB to be so paralyzed by it that they stop J/S from even talking to each other (no, I'm not saying Jack and Daniel never talked, it's just an example)? And, would it be fair to blame J/S shippers or J/S ship.

Very Minor Season 7 spoiler
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Most ship fans do feel that the fact that Jack and Sam have romantic feelings for each other are canon. I respect that others choose not to see it so and I can understand why but for me that's how it is.

Nitpicking, maybe, but I don't choose not to see J/S ship. I'm not willfully hiding my head in the sand. I just don't see it.

I think that it has gotten better as time has passed. At least, that's the way I like to see it. I think that they were great together in New Order.

I think so far, things this season are a lot better than last season. Jack doesn't go into his office and wonder who that guy in the glasses is anymore. Of course, there hasn't been a lot of J/S shippiness so far, either. We'll see how things go later on.

[Liv]

Let me tell you, it feels so good to read through all of these threads and find out that I'm not alone in the way I feel towards 'shipping' on the show.

I'm a Daniel/Janet shipper. Lifeboat was shippy for me. But, let me ask everyone who is not a Daniel/Janet shipper, and maybe especially those who hate the idea of them together, do any of you feel that pairing was ever forced on you? that it was taking up the whole show? That it was crowding out other aspects and shafting other characters?

I was never a Daniel/Janet shipper and I've never felt anything remotely shippy going on between them (in fact, if I hadn't read some comments on this online, I would have been completely clueless and Lifeboat couldn't have been less 'shippy' from my point of view) Which, to me, is precisely the way I wish it was, all around. I wish it was left open to interpretation. I wish I didn't get smacked over the head with 'shippiness'. Your example is perfect Dani, because if it hadn't been pointed out to me, I never would have noticed it.

The next thing I'm gonna comment on has been brought up before in this thread (but since I wasn't around then I'm gonna comment on it now... instead. ).

One of the reasons (notice how pointedly I say "one ) why I don't want the Jack/Sam ship is because I don't see anything there, in terms of attraction. I really don't. They have great chemistry together, just not the romantic kind. As a comparison I can point to Farscape and the relationship between Aeryn and Chrichton. Now, that's chemistry! The screen is sizzling with fire every time they're on screen together. I don't see any of that with Sam and Jack. IMO, Jack had loads more romantic chemistry with, for example, Laira from A Hundred Days and Sam had loads more romantic chemistry with both Martouf and Narim. And Joe.

That scene in Lost City, part 1 for instance (I think you know which one I mean) was just painful to watch, for me. It was excruciatingly awkward and embarrassing and all kinds of wrong.

I miss the early years of the show where I could draw my own conclusions as to what was going on between the characters. When it was a lot more about them exploring together, them caring for each other, protecting eachother and making quips towards another without there being an overtly romantic shimmer hovering over two of them.

And it's even more confusing for me going from one episode where the 'shippyness' between Jack and Sam is palpable to another one where it's like the events of the former episode haven't even occurred. It's like stumbling into an alternate Universe every other week and trying to keep track of all the little things that fade in and out of this particular reality. It feels... strange.

[Shipperahoy]

Nitpicking, maybe, but I don't choose not to see J/S ship. I'm not willfully hiding my head in the sand. I just don't see it.

No offense intended. I didn't mean to come across as saying that people who don't see S/J ship are deluding themselves or anything, not at all. I guess I was just saying that what is and isn't canon is not set in stone. Even if TPTB and the actors say that they are trying to put something across in a certain way (not even necessarily ship) it's still up to the viewers in how they decide to see what is put forth.

[ShadowMaat]

That scene in Lost City, part 1 for instance (I think you know which one I mean) was just painful to watch, for me. It was excruciatingly awkward and embarrassing and all kinds of wrong.

I haven't seen Lost City, but I agree with the sentiment. Seeing "shippy" scenes makes me squirm. It takes away from my enjoyment of the ep because it pulls me out of the story and shoves this (IMO) massive incongruity in my face.

I wasn't always so strongly anti-ship. I think I've said that before. But when S/J ship stopped being subtle see-it-or-don't and became "canon" and started being reinforced in scenes, tone, lighting, camera angles, music, subtext, interviews with actors/producers... the more forceful it becomes, the more intolerant I become of it.

Folks say, "It's their show, they can do what they want, just accept it!" And yeah, to a degree that's true, but that doesn't mean that I have to like it and it doesn't mean that what the producers want is what's best for the show/characters. And it certainly doesn't mean that what they want is what's best for me. I don't have to "accept" anything. I keep watching the show because for the moment the other elements of the show, the elements I love, are enough to keep me tuning in. For the moment. That could chage at any moment, and ship could very well be the element that breaks the show for me. I've already become completely over-sensitive to anything even remotely resembling ship. I can no longer watch Sam and Jack in a scene together without grinding my teeth. That upsets me. But I can't turn off that part of my head. It's there, now. The producers have said ship exists. The actors have said ship exists. The characters have said ship exists. It may not be written into each and every scene, but it will still always be there. And for me, it's simply WRONG. It's as wrong as having Daniel wearing a dress in every ep would be.

I am not in error because I don't like ship.
The producers are not right just because they DO like ship.
Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you SHOULD.
Just because something has happened doesn't mean it's right.

Ship IS. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less. For some people it adds to the story, for some it ruins things, for others it couldn't matter less one way or the other.

[Dani347]

S'alright, Shipperahoy.