General Ship ( Relationship) Discussion

[Atlantis4Life]

I think a lot of the differences in shipping come down to, not just a difference in perception of what story is being told on screen, but a complete difference in perception of the characters.

You see John and Teyla as being very compatible - I see them as being (as written) completely incompatible. You see Rodney and Jennifer as being incompatible - I see them as far more compatible (and preferable to me) than Rodney and Katie.

Let me say to start off with that I don't agree with the writers' heavy-handed approach to McKeller from The Shrine on. I may be wrong, but I think even many McKeller fans winced at how it was handled and that it ended up kinda taking over S5. But the relationship itself in concept I was fine with - I was kinda hooked starting with Jennifer's line "start swinging Schwarzenegger" in Trio. I liked that Jennifer could see Rodney's faults yet still be attracted to him - that she could gently tease him and that they could work together and interact on a level of equals.

For me the main difference between Rodney/Jennifer and Rodney/Katie, and even yes, Ronon/Keller is that I see Rodney/Jennifer as far more of a pairing of equals. Katie, though I liked her, seemed to come across to me as...well....kind of a little too timid and sensitive to really deal well with Rodney in the long term. I could just see Rodney riding roughshod all over her. I can't see Jennifer letting him get away with that, and I also think dealing with Rodney tends to bring out her own stronger side, whereas with Ronon, I suppose I saw (especially in Quarantine) more of a hero/damsel dynamic going on - and that's always tended to be something that turns me off.

Which I suppose we could swing back to John/Teyla now. Brad Wright's comment, when asked about the John/Teyla relationship, was to refer to how many times John has saved Teyla's life, and my reaction on hearing that was - what, are they Superman and Lois Lane now? Not exactly a relationship to emulate if you ask me. Again, as I said, I don't care for the hero/damsel dynamic - I am far more interested in relationships between close friends and equals.

And here I think is the key difference in perception - I don't see John and Teyla as being all that close, even on a platonic level. I do think they have a bond resulting from how they met, and that Teyla has been willing to join in with them. But I don't see them as being close in the way that they know each other well - that they're each other's best friends - that the other is more important to them than any of their other relationships. What I saw on screen just doesn't bear that out.

Personally, I would rank Teyla fourth among John's friends, after Rodney, Ronon, and Elizabeth. With all three of those characters, I saw instances of casual downtime bonding scenes that I didn't see with Teyla. I'm not saying they're romantic of course - but we see John hanging out and playing games with Rodney, sparring and watching movies with Ronon, or meeting with Elizabeth in her office or on the balcony. That kind of background casual one-on-one bonding stuff just doesn't exist between John and Teyla, particularly after Conversion which is the last time we ever saw John and Teyla spar (and that was early in S2). In some ways, it seemed like Ronon kinda took over Teyla's place with John as preferred sparring partner and "student" of earth culture ....and maybe even John's with Teyla. Before Ronon came along, John was her key contact among the Atlantis group - he was the one who brought her in and fought for her to stay. But after Ronon came, he was better suited to understand her concerns and perspectives as a Pegasus galaxy native whereas John has never really seemed to be all that concerned about Pegasus and the people there beyond how it affects Atlantis. And the writers didn't help that by attaching Ronon and Teyla at the hip throughout the majority of S2, and even later in episodes like Echoes and BAMSR, John may be the hero who saves them, but Ronon is the friend who is right there to pick her up off the floor, to hold her hand in the infirmary, to playfully tease with her, and to take her hand and gently lead her to see Keller after John exploded at her over her hiding of the pregnancy. So from Teyla's side, I would certainly say that Ronon has been a far better friend to her than John.

Hello Killdeer,

It’s nice to see you posting here. I can sum up my answer to your entire post with one word: Writing.

However, since you took the time out to reply in detail to my post, I feel that I owe you that same courtesy. I’ll try to make my responses as short as possible to hopefully keep from going over the posting limit. We’ll see if this works.

I agree that the perception of the characters is also something to take into consideration when delving into this issue. I’ve actually said that before. You see John and Teyla as being very incompatible, and that makes no sense to me. I see that they were written as very compatible characters. So much so, that they often spent a lot of their down time together, as well as with Ronon. I saw that they were very comfortable with each other from the beginning of the show.

As far as McKeller and such is concerned, well, you don’t seem to see that relationship the way that most people/posters I’ve come across do. But, it is good to have your own opinion on the subject. I’ll leave it at that. I think that Ronon and Katie were “equal” to Jennifer and Rodney. Just because Katie was a botanist doesn’t mean that she didn’t receive a PHD in botany (because it is a plant science afterall ), or have other achievements in her life. Considering that she was a part of the expedition, I would say that she did. She struck me as emotionally mature, patient, and kind. These are all qualities that meshed well with McKay’s own qualities and characteristics. She was a well-writen character that I found to be very endearing. Ronon was “equal” to Jennifer as a human being, and in the sense that he knew what it was like to be the “outsider.” The time they spent in Quarantine when Keller opened up to him about her life growing up, and how she never fit in, was nice. Ronon had to deal with those same feelings as a runner and then as a new person to the Atlantis expedtion. There’s also the saying “Opposites attract” that comes to mind. I didn’t see a hero/damsel dynamic going on in Quarantine between Ronon and Jenn. I saw two people stuck in a situation and working together to get themselves out. When did she play the damsel? Was it while she was cutting through an oxygen tank that could have exploded if she went even a milimeter too deep? Again, I just didn’t see the same things in the same way that you did, I guess. And that’s okay.

Alright, moving on to the main thing: John and Teyla.

I think that Brad’s comment about John saving Teyla’s life was a way of demonstrating that he cared for her so much that he would die for her - repeatedly - never thinking of himself. Giving credit where it’s due, I commend Brad for those statements because it shows how much thought they put into showing that this is how John felt about Teyla - and about his team as well. John would put his life on the line for anyone, but when it was Teyla, I always got the impression that he would go the full distance for her and her alone. A good example of this for me was in The Ark. Shep was willing to let an entire civilization perish because the risk became to great to save them. However, when Teyla was added among that group of 1,000 or so people, John literally was willing to risk killing himself to bring her back - against McKay’s advice.

Teyla was still a “student” of all things Atlantis/Earth related even when you look at season 5. In The Daedalus Variations, it was Teyla that took the training that was offered to learn how to operate the ship - not Ronon. I consider her a wise woman that makes learning and understanding a priority in her life, and TDV was an episode that showcased that perfectly.

Your examples of moments that Teyla and Ronon spent together are moments of 2 characters that are close like brother and sister to me, so it makes sense that Ronon would be an important part of Teyla’s life in the ways that you’ve mentioned. I can also name just as many times that John was there to comfort Teyla, and when she went to him for support. There’s a great moment when he feels her baby kick after he finally accepted the fact that she was pregnant with another man’s child. He also provided kind words of comfort to her in that episode, letting her know that she was not alone.

Teyla was there for John as well. She was the one that wouldn’t leave him alone until he went to Keller and got checked out after visting that planet with the crystals in Doppelganger. She didn’t lay down and just take him telling her that he was fine... She even accompanied him to the medical facility to make sure that he was okay. Lot of good that did considering what happened next in the episode. LOL. However, you probably catch my drift... And then again, in Phantoms, when she literally grabbed Shep by the jacket and told him that he needed to listen to her in order to help save everyone from themselves. She then urgently orders him to take her into the cave so she can help... Teyla always did a great job in knowing when to take charge as a leader, and when to follow. I’ve always liked that about Teyla...

As far as how Teyla ranks among John’s friends, I totally disagree. However, I’ve always believed, based on what I’ve seen on the show, that John thought of Teyla as more than just a friend, so...

Okay, there’s so much to tackle in your post that I don’t think even my short responses are going to keep me from posting twice.

[Atlantis4Life]

Well, and I think she did - she chose Kanaan. Personally I don't see any reason to think she might regret that decision or change her mind about it, and even if she did....and here's the key point for me.....I can't personally come up with the slightest reason that she would choose John. I guess this has always been the biggest sticking point for me - Teyla might (and I say MIGHT) be good for John, but I can't think of any way at all that John is good for Teyla. And I think here is where we run in to a problem of a fundamental difference in perception of the characters, because, while I like John Sheppard, I don't see him as the type of man that would ever be good for Teyla. I really honestly can't think of the slightest thing that Teyla could get out of the relationship. I see Teyla as needing someone more emotionally open and caring, someone interested in her culture and her people, someone willing to share her life and support her as a leader. And I can't see Shep fitting any of those qualities. As Flowerbud pointed out succinctly on the other thread, I think Teyla would end up making all the compromises in a relationship with John. She would end up having to be the one to conform to his customs, his ways, his people - and that disturbs me a lot.

She did choose Kanaan, but the reasons as to why are still up in the air for me. It looked to me like she spent time with a childhood friend that resulted in an unplanned pregnancy. I get the feeling that she’s with Kanaan to try and see if it will work between them since they have a child together now. However, choices can change. That’s what I was getting at in my reponse to Flowerbud.

I can come up with a lot of reasons why she would choose John. He has a great heart, he’s loyal and caring (even if he tries to hide how much he cares sometimes), etc... I’ve seen a connection between those 2 characters ever since the pilot of the show. Even non-shippers have seen it and a few John/Elizabeth shippers have at least mentioned seeing chemistry during the first season between John and Teyla...

And I love what you just said about Teyla needing someone that is “emotionally open and caring“ because that IS John - on the inside - and Teyla can see that. The other thing that I love about this is that John tried to show Teyla that part of himself in a way that he hasn’t with anyone else on the show. So, he did "open" himself to her in a way. That scene in Sateda where John wants Teyla to know how he feels about her and the rest of the team is something I couldn’t imagine him doing with anyone else. No, he’s not good at expressing his inner thoughts and feelings, but he was willing to try when it came to Teyla. She had to help him do it, but the important thing is that there was a crack in that wall that he has build up around himself. It was like a brick was removed, and she got to see through to the other side even though she already knew what was there. This is what happens with great storytelling (imo). I get the impression that Teyla makes John want to be a better man. She makes him want to make those small but necessary changes for the better... That, in and of itself, is beautiful.

Technically no, Teyla is not John's subordinate. But to me, the problem is that John tends to treat her like one, and Teyla, more often than not, lets him get away with it. She has no problem meeting with Elizabeth or Sam on their terms, one on one, and dealing with them as equals. But for some reason, she won't stand up to John once he slaps her down. She may confront him over something she doesn't like, but once he delivers his reprimand or verdict, she doesn't fight him on it - she just accepts it. He yelled at her like she was just another soldier when she slugged Bates, he chewed her out for not telling him she was pregnant and she only feebly protested, he laid down the law to her about rejoining the team and she accepted it - unhappily but she did. John simply doesn't listen to her. In Hot Zone she tried to get him to think about what he's doing, going against Elizabeth, and it went in one ear and out the other. In Letters to Pegasus, he only had to give in because she literally forced his hand by leaving the jumper, not because she changed his mind. IIRC, only in Irresponsible did he actually listen to a reproach from her and back down a little. But most of the time, John seems to expect her to follow his orders just as the rest of his men do, and the fact that Teyla doesn't get in his face and correct his assumptions troubles me. To my perception, while they may not be technically CO/subordinate, they behave like CO/subordinate, and to be honest, that actually troubles me more when trying to think of them in a romantic relationship.

I just feel like Teyla really doesn't have any power in the relationship, and to be honest, a lot of that impression has been formed by the last two seasons and John's reaction to her pregnancy and rejoining the team. While I didn't necessarily disagree with him, he didn't really give her any options either, or appear to be open to discussion. This was the way it was going to be and that was that. *shrugs* He didn't act like a concerned friend in those situations - he acted like a boss.

Oh, I’ve already just given examples of where John listened to her, and there are more... So, I won’t delve into that again. However, I’ve never seen John “slapping her down.” I’d like to see him try. Being serious here though, I think Teyla is good at knowing when to lead and when to follow. She knows that he is the military leader of the expedition, and although she gives her input, she also gives due deference to that fact. I also think that the reason why we didn’t see John and Teyla fighting with each other during the show was because they tended to agree with each other a lot, and they respected each other’s input when they did not agree. That’s what compatibility is all about to me. That scene that you mention in LFP is exactly what Teyla did with Sam in The Kindred Pt. 1 when she said she didn’t need Sam’s permission to look for her people. The only difference is that she didn’t say anything to Shep in LFP; she just did what she knew to be the right thing, and it was the right thing. And I didn’t see Shep “slapping” Teyla down for doing what she knew was right at the end of that episode either. She just knew that arguing with him was fruitless at the time because he’s stubborn. Another thing is that John backed up Teyla wanting to go look for her people when Sam asked him what he thought about it by saying that it didn't matter what he thought because it was Teyla, and that they owed it to her to help her.

The other side of this is that John is John. The few times when he didn’t listen to Teyla was the same as when he didn’t listen to Weir, or Sam (in order to save Teyla), or anyone else. The series begins with O’Neill warning Weir about the fact that John marches to the beat of his own drum...

However, I will agree with you that it would have been nice to see Teyla taking charge a bit more over the years, though.

Well, again our perspective differs here. I don't think Shep and company disobeyed orders in The Return because they were concerned about Pegasus or Teyla and Ronon. This was all about Atlantis. John has shown a willingness to do whatever it takes to save that city (except when Earth is on the line), but I've never really felt that his concern extended to the rest of the galaxy. Teyla and Ronon offered John a chance to stay in Pegasus, and he didn't even seem to consider it an option. It was only when Atlantis was threatened that he went into action.

Yes, we disagree. However, I think you misunderstood what I meant by “colleagues.” I was talking about O’Neill and Woolsey. Teyla and Ronon weren’t in harms way at the time, but the Earthers did pick them up to help out because they were a part of the team. I called Woolsey and O’Neill colleagues because they worked with the team to send everybody off in their own directions when the Ancients came back, and stayed behind as liasons on Atlantis in their stead. I’ve always felt that the series showed that John was willing to help others when he could and if the risk to the team/city he was responsible for wasn’t too great. When Teyla offered Shep a place with her, Ronon, and her people, John said that he couldn’t go with her because the US Air Force had different plans for him - not that he didn’t want to go. So, I don’t think that the implication that Shep wasn’t interested in staying in Pegasus really holds up well here. And he didn’t seem too happy when he went back home and was assigned a new SG team to lead, so perhaps he really did want to stay in Pegasus. Your statement that it was “only when Atlantis was threatened that he went into action is one that I don’t agree with. I think that he, Rodney, Carson, and Elizabeth were all interested in saving Gen. O’Neill and Woolsey as much as they were interested in saving the city. I’m sure that they left Ronon and Teyla with a way of contacting the SGC when they were relocated (we’ve seen this happen in both SG-1 and Atlantis with people that that SG program has helped), so if Teyla and Ronon had been in danger and contacted them, then I think that Shep, Beckett, Weir, and McKay would have wanted to help their old team mates then as well.

[Atlantis4Life]

I don't know. I've thought quite a bit how a John/Teyla pairing could have been written so that I would like it, and I've basically concluded that the writers would have had to have fundamentally changed the characters, especially Teyla. She would have had to have been written as a much more prominent and assertive character, instead of (as Linda06 so often says being the wallpaper. John....maybe not so much of a character change, but I would have had to have seen a lot more clear signs of affection and caring toward Teyla from him.

I could not disagree more with you here. If they changed the core of who John and Teyla were, then we wouldn’t have the same show. I don’t want that. Life and the experiences that it comes with bring about natural changes in people. For me, that’s enough change for the both of them. The beautiful thing about Teyla to me is that she is quietly prominent and assertive. There’s a shining beauty in that quiet strength for me. One doesn’t need to be loud or pushy to get a point across. In fact, I think that this is the opposite of John’s type. Loud and pushy was Larrin, and I can’t see anything between John and her as being more than a fling... That’s not to say that he’d be interested in weak and timid, but just to say that Teyla seems to strike the right balance as a strong and intelligent woman that also knows how to be flexible and diplomatic. Just my thoughts...

However, my dear Linda is correct when she says that they wallpapered Teyla and her various giftings far more than they needed to... As far as seeing John’s feeling goes, I don’t know. He’s not that kind of guy, and I don’t want him to become someone that wears his feelings on his sleeves (that should be left to McKay ). If they make a movie, then it would be good to see a natural progression from him with Teyla. (This would be after she either left Kanaan or if he died of course ).

I maxed out the character limit...LOL! It's been a while since I did that. So part 2 -

No worries! Same here.

It depends on what show you were watching I suppose. I don't know that it would make it a soap - I don't agree on that point. But again it goes back to what I said earlier - I didn't see any indications on the show (especially in the first three seasons) that John and Teyla thought each other to be the most important people in their lives. Again, it goes back to your perceptions of the characters. When I found out (more than halfway through the series) that John and Teyla were supposed to have been the canon couple, I was stunned because it doesn't at all fit into how I perceive these characters and their relationships with each other. The dream scene in S&R was even more of a shock, because even now I can't reconcile in my mind a John Sheppard who dreamed such a thing with the John Sheppard I saw in the entire rest of the show. It's like they're not even the same person. I don't know if that makes sense. I guess what I'm trying to say is - if you (generic you) see John and Teyla as holding this very important central place in each other's lives, then I can understand why a person might ship them and a relationship between them would only be a continuation of what you'd seen all along, not a change. For myself, I never saw a relationship between John and Teyla as being an major part of the show (or even much of a part of the show at all to be honest). And so to suddenly make it that would indeed be a change from the show I was watching. *shrugs* In this of course, as with everything else, MMV.

I was watching Stargate: Atlantis, but it does seem like based on some of the perspectives I’ve encountered that others were watching something else sometimes.

And yes, I agree that there’s no way to say with certainty that a JT pairing would = soap. Again, great writing can achieve anything. Aaah, finally, I come full circle to my initial response.

Yes, your perceptions aer quite different from my own. I never read/saw anything on the show when I first started watching it, and the chemistry between John and Teyla was instant and electric to me. I normally don’t interest myself in relationships much, especially if they are not the focal point of a show/movie. However, with John and Teyla there was something special about them that I still can’t quite put my finger on. They just had a spark between the 2 of them that worked for me. Now, I understand that this is probably the case for other people when it comes to John and possibly another character on the show. However, I can only speak for myself and how I experienced the series.

The dream sequence in S&R seemed natural to me. It seemed to flow with what I saw the writers doing for the first 3 seasons in particular. It was like they were trying to say that even though Teyla was with another man, John just couldn’t let her go... He still wanted her. So for me, it was kind of sad in that way. The word “bittersweet” comes to mind.

We all see different things, and I think that this is good. We don’t all have to see or like the same things about a show. Ask 10 people that love it why they like SGA, and you’ll get 10 responses that at least vary a little. No one is meant to experience the show in the exact same way as another person does. So I wholeheartedly agree with your saying - MMV, indeed.

It has been nice talking to you, Flowerbud, and others about this subject over the past few weeks. However, since I saw that the discussion on this subject was closed on the JT thread (and I still have a few pages to read to get fully caught up on it), I think I’ll follow the example that was set and move on from this discussion.

You and Flowerbud get to have the last word on this subject if you decide to respond. I have said all that I wanted to say about it here.

Enjoy your weekend,

Atlantis.

[Killdeer]

I don't know that I will be able to reply to all of this right now, since I'm on lunch break, but we'll see how far I get.

I agree that the perception of the characters is also something to take into consideration when delving into this issue. I’ve actually said that before. You see John and Teyla as being very incompatible, and that makes no sense to me.

Well, and that's ok. When two people are looking at a picture and one sees a flower and another sees a tree, neither side is probably going to be able to make sense of what the other sees.

So much so, that they often spent a lot of their down time together, as well as with Ronon.

Ah. Well, time in a threesome or time as a team doesn't really equate to one-on-one time in my mind, and I didn't see John seek Teyla out for one-on-one time....really since Michael come to think of it.

As far as McKeller and such is concerned, well, you don’t seem to see that relationship the way that most people/posters I’ve come across do. But, it is good to have your own opinion on the subject.

I suppose it depends on where you hang out. It's true that there's a lot of McKeller hate on the board, but I know, at least while the show was airing, there were also a lot of McKeller shippers around too - I used to hang out in the McKeller thread. They may have all sought greener pastures though - I don't know.

I think that Ronon and Katie were “equal” to Jennifer and Rodney.

I didn't mean to imply that Katie and Ronon were inferior as individuals to Rodney and Jennifer - not at all. Just that in my estimation, Katie didn't come across as emotionally tough enough to deal with someone like Rodney. And canon bears that out - she didn't know how to handle him in Quarantine. Jennifer would have given him a metaphorical kick in the behind and knocked him out of his hypochondria. Katie, as we saw, was not capable of doing that.

And as far as Ronon goes

the sense that he knew what it was like to be the “outsider.” The time they spent in Quarantine when Keller opened up to him about her life growing up, and how she never fit in, was nice.

See, this......well. A lot....actually, I should say, just about all of my negative feelings about Ronon/Jennifer come from this one scene. I am really still not quite sure why, but I just had a very strong negative reaction to that scene. I was ok with Ronon/Keller as a ship all the way until this episode, but this scene....it really killed it for me. Her talking about how she never fit in, and then cuddling up to big strong Ronon..... it's hard to actually put into words, but...well. I'm not going to try. I guess it just pushed a button for me somehow. Suffice it to say....that one scene killed the ship dead for me.

I think that Brad’s comment about John saving Teyla’s life was a way of demonstrating that he cared for her so much that he would die for her - repeatedly - never thinking of himself. Giving credit where it’s due, I commend Brad for those statements because it shows how much thought they put into showing that this is how John felt about Teyla - and about his team as well. John would put his life on the line for anyone, but when it was Teyla, I always got the impression that he would go the full distance for her and her alone.

Well, and see those last three words are where we sharply disagree. I see absolutely no indications anywhere in the series that his best efforts are limited to Teyla alone. I've always seen John as someone who would go the whole distance for any one of his team. Yes, that includes Teyla, but it certainly wasn't limited to her. As far as the episode The Ark goes, why would anyone think that John would have behaved any differently if it had been Rodney or Ronon trapped in there, or even Carson?

Not to mention my own personal annoyance with the writers' insistence on "damseling" Teyla so that John could rescue her - The Ark is only one example. Seriously. I cannot describe how deeply I loathed the Michael storyline because of how it continually victimized Teyla, and S&R was the worst - making Teyla the princess in the dungeon guarded by the loathsome monster, and after "Prince" John braves the dungeon to make a heroic and valiant rescue, the princess in her gratitude names her first-born son after him (totally disregarding the rest of the team - oh, they're just the sidekicks in this fairy tale ).

Anyway, back to the track of John rescuing Teyla - it's the implication I got that the writers are thinking "well, he's the hero, he saves her all the time, how could she not love him?" Really? A relationship has to be built on more than that. Going back to the Superman/Lois Lane comparison - John may be Teyla's Superman, but I don't see any indications that he's also her Clark Kent. And personally - I always found Lois/Clark to be a much more compelling relationship than Lois/Superman.

And I love what you just said about Teyla needing someone that is “emotionally open and caring“ because that IS John - on the inside - and Teyla can see that. The other thing that I love about this is that John tried to show Teyla that part of himself in a way that he hasn’t with anyone else on the show. So, he did "open" himself to her in a way. That scene in Sateda where John wants Teyla to know how he feels about her and the rest of the team is something I couldn’t imagine him doing with anyone else. No, he’s not good at expressing his inner thoughts and feelings, but he was willing to try when it came to Teyla. She had to help him do it, but the important thing is that there was a crack in that wall that he has build up around himself. It was like a brick was removed, and she got to see through to the other side even though she already knew what was there. This is what happens with great storytelling (imo). I get the impression that Teyla makes John want to be a better man. She makes him want to make those small but necessary changes for the better... That, in and of itself, is beautiful.

I think here we come across yet a third factor in the differences in shipping. One is perception of scenes or storylines, two is perception of characters, and here....I think there's an issue of personal taste or preferences. Leaving aside the issue of the interpretation of the Sateda scene (I love that scene, but suffice it to say our interpretations are VERY different), I realized reading your description that the type of relationship you're describing is.... well, I guess not really to my taste I suppose. I don't really go for the "emotionally repressed man helped to find his heart by the right woman" type relationships. Interestingly enough, if you flip that around, and have the woman be the emotionally repressed one with the man being the more emotionally open one trying to get through - I'm all over that. John and Aeryn in Farscape are classic examples of this. Not that John didn't have his own emotional issues, but especially early in the series, a lot of their relationship is based on John showing Aeryn that it's ok to feel, to not be this rigidly unemotional soldier all the time. And I LOVE that. I guess I just realized though....it doesn't really work for me so well going the other way. But I'm not saying you liking that is wrong - I think in this case we've just run into a matter of personal taste.

However, I think you misunderstood what I meant by “colleagues.” I was talking about O’Neill and Woolsey.

I did, actually. I wasn't thinking about them. I still think that John's primary reason for going was to save Atlantis, as evidenced by his statement "we're not going to let a bunch of replicators take our home away from us". But I agree that saving O'Neill and Woolsey was also a strong motivation.

Gotta run...lunch break nearly over. I skipped over a lot due to time, but...ultimately I do think, as you said, it's a matter of perception, and everyone is going to come away from something with different interpretations.

We all see different things, and I think that this is good. We don’t all have to see or like the same things about a show. Ask 10 people that love it why they like SGA, and you’ll get 10 responses that at least vary a little. No one is meant to experience the show in the exact same way as another person does. So I wholeheartedly agree with your saying - MMV, indeed.

I think I’ll follow the example that was set and move on from this discussion.

You and Flowerbud get to have the last word on this subject if you decide to respond. I have said all that I wanted to say about it here.

Enjoyed chatting with you too. If you decide you want to continue the conversation, awesome - if not, thanks for the discussion. And I'm willing continue chatting with anyone who wants to jump in.

[Southern Red]

I don't know that I will be able to reply to all of this right now, since I'm on lunch break, but we'll see how far I get.



Well, and that's ok. When two people are looking at a picture and one sees a flower and another sees a tree, neither side is probably going to be able to make sense of what the other sees.



Ah. Well, time in a threesome or time as a team doesn't really equate to one-on-one time in my mind, and I didn't see John seek Teyla out for one-on-one time....really since Michael come to think of it.


I suppose it depends on where you hang out. It's true that there's a lot of McKeller hate on the board, but I know, at least while the show was airing, there were also a lot of McKeller shippers around too - I used to hang out in the McKeller thread. They may have all sought greener pastures though - I don't know.



I didn't mean to imply that Katie and Ronon were inferior as individuals to Rodney and Jennifer - not at all. Just that in my estimation, Katie didn't come across as emotionally tough enough to deal with someone like Rodney. And canon bears that out - she didn't know how to handle him in Quarantine. Jennifer would have given him a metaphorical kick in the behind and knocked him out of his hypochondria. Katie, as we saw, was not capable of doing that.

And as far as Ronon goes

See, this......well. A lot....actually, I should say, just about all of my negative feelings about Ronon/Jennifer come from this one scene. I am really still not quite sure why, but I just had a very strong negative reaction to that scene. I was ok with Ronon/Keller as a ship all the way until this episode, but this scene....it really killed it for me. Her talking about how she never fit in, and then cuddling up to big strong Ronon..... it's hard to actually put into words, but...well. I'm not going to try. I guess it just pushed a button for me somehow. Suffice it to say....that one scene killed the ship dead for me.



Well, and see those last three words are where we sharply disagree. I see absolutely no indications anywhere in the series that his best efforts are limited to Teyla alone. I've always seen John as someone who would go the whole distance for any one of his team. Yes, that includes Teyla, but it certainly wasn't limited to her. As far as the episode The Ark goes, why would anyone think that John would have behaved any differently if it had been Rodney or Ronon trapped in there, or even Carson?

Not to mention my own personal annoyance with the writers' insistence on "damseling" Teyla so that John could rescue her - The Ark is only one example. Seriously. I cannot describe how deeply I loathed the Michael storyline because of how it continually victimized Teyla, and S&R was the worst - making Teyla the princess in the dungeon guarded by the loathsome monster, and after "Prince" John braves the dungeon to make a heroic and valiant rescue, the princess in her gratitude names her first-born son after him (totally disregarding the rest of the team - oh, they're just the sidekicks in this fairy tale ).

Anyway, back to the track of John rescuing Teyla - it's the implication I got that the writers are thinking "well, he's the hero, he saves her all the time, how could she not love him?" Really? A relationship has to be built on more than that. Going back to the Superman/Lois Lane comparison - John may be Teyla's Superman, but I don't see any indications that he's also her Clark Kent. And personally - I always found Lois/Clark to be a much more compelling relationship than Lois/Superman.



I think here we come across yet a third factor in the differences in shipping. One is perception of scenes or storylines, two is perception of characters, and here....I think there's an issue of personal taste or preferences. Leaving aside the issue of the interpretation of the Sateda scene (I love that scene, but suffice it to say our interpretations are VERY different), I realized reading your description that the type of relationship you're describing is.... well, I guess not really to my taste I suppose. I don't really go for the "emotionally repressed man helped to find his heart by the right woman" type relationships. Interestingly enough, if you flip that around, and have the woman be the emotionally repressed one with the man being the more emotionally open one trying to get through - I'm all over that. John and Aeryn in Farscape are classic examples of this. Not that John didn't have his own emotional issues, but especially early in the series, a lot of their relationship is based on John showing Aeryn that it's ok to feel, to not be this rigidly unemotional soldier all the time. And I LOVE that. I guess I just realized though....it doesn't really work for me so well going the other way. But I'm not saying you liking that is wrong - I think in this case we've just run into a matter of personal taste.



I did, actually. I wasn't thinking about them. I still think that John's primary reason for going was to save Atlantis, as evidenced by his statement "we're not going to let a bunch of replicators take our home away from us". But I agree that saving O'Neill and Woolsey was also a strong motivation.

Gotta run...lunch break nearly over. I skipped over a lot due to time, but...ultimately I do think, as you said, it's a matter of perception, and everyone is going to come away from something with different interpretations.

If you want to continue the conversation, awesome - if not, that's fine too. I'm willing to chat with anyone who wants to jump in.

I'd like to jump in if I may. I love this discussion and have enjoyed both sides. Finally there is some clarification of how perception makes such a difference.

Overall, my view of TPTB and shipping is that they constantly broke the cardinal rule of writing. Show, don't tell. The fact that they had to explain their intentions regarding certain ships in commentaries and at cons tells me that they realize they didn't do a very good job of showing them. Specifically, the John/Teyla relationship. Does Brad Wright really believe that Teyla cares for John just because he saved her life so much? Or that he saved her life more than anyone else's? Or that he saved her life with more conviction than anyone else's? It gets very confusing if you take it to its logical conclusion.

There are certain undeniable facts regarding John and saving lives.

1. He risked his own death to save the city and its inhabitants on several occasions. HZ, Siege 2, and many others
2. He also risked the lives of his team in attempts to save the city and/or other people. The Hive, Return 2, Inferno and more
3. At one time or another, he risked his life to save each member of his team
Rodney: Doppelganger, The Shrine (here he risked the whole team plus Keller just to give him a good death), GUP (dragging Radek along)
Ronon: Sateda (plus the team and the crew of the Daedalus), Reunion, Broken Ties, The Seed
Elizabeth: TS/TE, TRW, Lifeline
Keller: The Seed
4. There were multiple times when John could have died trying to save complete strangers, Earth or any combination of any of the above.

I can't see where any of the times he rescued Teyla that he tried any harder than in any of the above examples or others I can't think of right now. She was just written as the damsel in distress a lot. Which again, I think did a disservice to her character. After all, one of the biggest complaints about Keller was that she was in need of saving too much. Teyla was no different. She should have been written as saving herself or others on occasion.

Another time when they told but didn't show was in relation to John and Teyla spending time together. The only thing I remember about this is once when John asked Ronon who did he hang out with other than the two of them. Yet we never saw the 3 or them just hang out. John and Ronon, yes but all 3 no. And as far as I recall, we never saw John and Teyla in a moment of complete down time just quietly getting to know each other. This was the biggest failing of the writers IMHO in selling this ship. Where were the private moments that make you believe a couple is attracted or even close friends? And where were the private looks that a man and a woman exchange when they are attracted? I've heard shippers say they saw them but I didn't. I'd love to have someone point me towards those scenes.

Thanks. I hope this can be taken in a friendly spirit. I don't intend to continue a ship war. I really am puzzled and would like to see what some of you see.

[poundpuppy29]

ITA 100% with Killdeer on J&T and McKeller I could never see Rodney with Katie because of what she was like. I could never see Sheppard with Teyla because he doesn't treat her like an equal especially in BAMS'R I was disgusted with how he treated Teyla he would never treat Elizabeth that way ever. He doesn't respect her so they could never work.

[Killdeer]

I'd like to jump in if I may. I love this discussion and have enjoyed both sides. Finally there is some clarification of how perception makes such a difference.

I like this thread because the topic is so broad. As long as we are talking about shipping in some way, we are on topic.

Another time when they told but didn't show was in relation to John and Teyla spending time together. The only thing I remember about this is once when John asked Ronon who did he hang out with other than the two of them. Yet we never saw the 3 or them just hang out. John and Ronon, yes but all 3 no.

Well, John did invite Teyla to go with them on their golf outing on Sunday, but she didn't seem to be all that enthusiastic about the prospect, making up all sorts of excuses to get out of it.

I don't know - I've seen this statement of John's interpreted to mean that he only spends time with Ronon and Teyla (not by you necessarily SR ), but I think John's talking about Ronon here, not himself. Ronon may only hang out with John and Teyla (and the way John says it, not necessarily at the same time even), but it doesn't follow that John only spends time with Ronon and Teyla. And it's clearly shown not to be the case - even if a person were to discount his time spent with Elizabeth as purely work-related, there's still Rodney who John clearly spends quite a bit of time hanging out and goofing off with. And Teyla herself is shown in the same episode to have a social life beyond the two guys. So I think the only person we can make any assumptions about from this statement of John's is Ronon - and I don't think it can be held to have any implications for the J/T relationship.

[VampyreWraith]

Wow, killdeer, you've basically summed my feelings in a really good way regarding the John/Teyla/rest of the team relationship issue so I'm not going to repeat too much lol; and also about relationships in general. I do think John and Teyla were good friends though even if that wasn't really developed either.

I also felt like McKeller could've worked if it was done slowly throughout season 5 in little bits; instead of all at once in large chunks over a few eps. Love triangles are also not a good way to endear fans to a particular ship.

I don't really care if there are romantic relationship on shows, especially sci-fi shows. Sometimes its ok, as long as it adds to the story, and doesn't over shadow the other characters and the plot(unless its a relationship drama, cuz then that would be the plot lol). If I see a romantic relationship I see it, if I don't i don't; and i usually prefer it to stay subtle and in the backround; especially when its on a show that centers around a team. To me its more about character interaction in general. I find having good friendships on a show is more important than having romance; especially complicated romances(espicially on team oriented, action based shows.)

[VampyreWraith]

I'd like to jump in if I may. I love this discussion and have enjoyed both sides. Finally there is some clarification of how perception makes such a difference.

Overall, my view of TPTB and shipping is that they constantly broke the cardinal rule of writing. Show, don't tell. The fact that they had to explain their intentions regarding certain ships in commentaries and at cons tells me that they realize they didn't do a very good job of showing them. Specifically, the John/Teyla relationship. Does Brad Wright really believe that Teyla cares for John just because he saved her life so much? Or that he saved her life more than anyone else's? Or that he saved her life with more conviction than anyone else's? It gets very confusing if you take it to its logical conclusion.

There are certain undeniable facts regarding John and saving lives.

1. He risked his own death to save the city and its inhabitants on several occasions. HZ, Siege 2, and many others
2. He also risked the lives of his team in attempts to save the city and/or other people. The Hive, Return 2, Inferno and more
3. At one time or another, he risked his life to save each member of his team
Rodney: Doppelganger, The Shrine (here he risked the whole team plus Keller just to give him a good death), GUP (dragging Radek along)
Ronon: Sateda (plus the team and the crew of the Daedalus), Reunion, Broken Ties, The Seed
Elizabeth: TS/TE, TRW, Lifeline
Keller: The Seed
4. There were multiple times when John could have died trying to save complete strangers, Earth or any combination of any of the above.

I can't see where any of the times he rescued Teyla that he tried any harder than in any of the above examples or others I can't think of right now. She was just written as the damsel in distress a lot. Which again, I think did a disservice to her character. After all, one of the biggest complaints about Keller was that she was in need of saving too much. Teyla was no different. She should have been written as saving herself or others on occasion.

Another time when they told but didn't show was in relation to John and Teyla spending time together. The only thing I remember about this is once when John asked Ronon who did he hang out with other than the two of them. Yet we never saw the 3 or them just hang out. John and Ronon, yes but all 3 no. And as far as I recall, we never saw John and Teyla in a moment of complete down time just quietly getting to know each other. This was the biggest failing of the writers IMHO in selling this ship. Where were the private moments that make you believe a couple is attracted or even close friends? And where were the private looks that a man and a woman exchange when they are attracted? I've heard shippers say they saw them but I didn't. I'd love to have someone point me towards those scenes.

Thanks. I hope this can be taken in a friendly spirit. I don't intend to continue a ship war. I really am puzzled and would like to see what some of you see.

I agree with the bolded a lot.
I mentioned this in another thread but if Teyla and John were witten like Sheridan and Delann from B5 were; I could've liked this ship. Their relationship was well woven throughout the series (starting with season 2 of course lol).
In that series, despite coming from vastly different cultures(they werent even both human) both individuals got to know the others people and culture pretty intimately. I didn't see this at all with John and Teyla; especially from John's part. i saw him as being more of "whatever, let her believe what she wants and we'll go along with it as long as she can move on and get the job done." (ex. The Gift, The Kindred, The Shrine to a lesser extent, I'm sure their were others but those come to mind right off the bat)

Add: I really hope that what I just said doesn't get missinterpreted either. I just saw this thread on top and decided to post in it.

[Killdeer]

McKeller could have actually worked, but SG writers have always sucked at writing main character ship and then it was just too dominant, and I do not watch Stargate for ship.

Oh I agree completely. Even though I like the pairing, I really wish it hadn't been handled as it was. They pushed into it too fast and too heavily. Having Rodney say "I've loved you for a long time" in The Shrine leaves the viewer thinking, wait, didn't he just propose to a different woman not too long ago? What's up with that? IMO, they should have just left it as an undercurrent through most of the season, and forgotten the love triangle bit with Ronon altogether, because no one came off looking good there.

Daniel/Vala is another ship I liked, but felt like it was handled badly. There were episodes like Momento Mori and The Powers that Be that I was really into it, but....like McKeller, they tended to get a little heavy handed with it. And I've never quite gotten over Unending.

I also felt like McKeller could've worked if it was done slowly throughout season 5 in little bits; instead of all at once in large chunks over a few eps. Love triangles are also not a good way to endear fans to a particular ship.

Oh agreed.

I find having good friendships on a show is more important than having romance; especially complicated romances(espicially on team oriented, action based shows.)

I would agree with this also actually. I do ship characters, but friendships are usually more important to me, and my ships nearly always grow out of friendships. Not always of course. In SGA, I loved John and Rodney's friendship. In Eureka my two favorite relationships are both platonic, Jack and Jo, and Jack and Henry. In SG-1 I very much enjoyed the Sam and Daniel friendship in the early seasons, and I probably could have shipped them if the writers had decided to go that way after Daniel's wife was killed.

[VampyreWraith]

Regarding SG1 ships:
I didn't mind the way things went with Sam and Jack. They could've mentioned Sam and Jack having gotten together during season 9 or after in a more overt way , but it really didn't bother me. Their relationship wasn't really why I watched the show, so I didn't really care either way. I liked the team interaction more. Really liked the dynamic between Jack/Daniel, Jack/Teal'c, Daniel/Teal'c, Sam/Teal'c, Sam/Daniel and later Sam/Cam, Cam/Vala, Vala/Teal'c. All in a friendship type way. I really didn't like the way Vala acted when she was around Daniel, she was too OTT for me to have liked that pairing. I did like Vala/Tomin in a shippy way, especially in Line in the Sand. She seemed more mature and also more vulnerable around him.

[Southern Red]

I like this thread because the topic is so broad. As long as we are talking about shipping in some way, we are on topic.



Well, John did invite Teyla to go with them on their golf outing on Sunday, but she didn't seem to be all that enthusiastic about the prospect, making up all sorts of excuses to get out of it.

I don't know - I've seen this statement of John's interpreted to mean that he only spends time with Ronon and Teyla (not by you necessarily SR ), but I think John's talking about Ronon here, not himself. Ronon may only hang out with John and Teyla (and the way John says it, not necessarily at the same time even), but it doesn't follow that John only spends time with Ronon and Teyla. And it's clearly shown not to be the case - even if a person were to discount his time spent with Elizabeth as purely work-related, there's still Rodney who John clearly spends quite a bit of time hanging out and goofing off with. And Teyla herself is shown in the same episode to have a social life beyond the two guys. So I think the only person we can make any assumptions about from this statement of John's is Ronon - and I don't think it can be held to have any implications for the J/T relationship.

Oh I saw that statement the same way you did. He was talking about Ronon, that was clear. He may even have meant that she hung out with them separately, not at the same time. Who knows? From this, we learned nothing about the J/T relationship. It makes you wonder why they went to so much trouble showing John and Rodney playing games together and being so close and did the same with Ronon. Yet they did nothing with John and Teyla. If they wanted to develop the relationship as a potential romance, then why didn't they ever interact? It's very puzzling. It looked like they started out in Hide and Seek to be developing a friendship. But then after that it just dwindled away. Maybe they realized the lack of screen chemistry and just let it drop. Except for the odd anvil that flew out of the blue.

I agree with the bolded a lot.
I mentioned this in another thread but if Teyla and John were witten like Sheridan and Delann from B5 were; I could've liked this ship. Their relationship was well woven throughout the series (starting with season 2 of course lol).
In that series, despite coming from vastly different cultures(they werent even both human) both individuals got to know the others people and culture pretty intimately. I didn't see this at all with John and Teyla; especially from John's part. i saw him as being more of "whatever, let her believe what she wants and we'll go along with it as long as she can move on and get the job done." (ex. The Gift, The Kindred, The Shrine to a lesser extent, I'm sure their were others but those come to mind right off the bat)

Add: I really hope that what I just said doesn't get missinterpreted either. I just saw this thread on top and decided to post in it.

I would like to have seen John and Teyla as Mal and Zoe from Firefly. Bonded by serving in combat together. Close as brothers but not in a romantic way. And Firefly hit that head on and dealt with it in a very adult way. But these writers had to do the triangle thing and it just ended in tears for almost everybody.

[Killdeer]

It looked like they started out in Hide and Seek to be developing a friendship.

*blank look* Urm. I'm sorry - can you refresh my memory here? *embarrassed look* I don't really remember John and Teyla having more than fleeting interaction in this episode. What I remember most is John and Rodney goofing around with the shield, and then the smoke monster of course, but....I'm going blank on any J/T stuff.

I would like to have seen John and Teyla as Mal and Zoe from Firefly.

Yeah, I liked that relationship. And Zoe and Wash - my favorite Firefly couple. Stargate needed a couple like those two.

[Southern Red]

*blank look* Urm. I'm sorry - can you refresh my memory here? *embarrassed look* I don't really remember John and Teyla having more than fleeting interaction in this episode. What I remember most is John and Rodney goofing around with the shield, and then the smoke monster of course, but....I'm going blank on any J/T stuff.

Yeah, I liked that relationship. And Zoe and Wash - my favorite Firefly couple. Stargate needed a couple like those two.

The scene with the popcorn and the football game. It looked like he was trying to impress her. But both Rodney and Ford were there too. So it could have been one of those testosterone driven Earth men things. Plus he was telling stories to the kids and she was there looking interested. If they had continued in that vein, it would have been a nice transition into asking her on a date and ...nah...that would have made too much sense for these writers.

[VampyreWraith]

I would like to have seen John and Teyla as Mal and Zoe from Firefly. Bonded by serving in combat together. Close as brothers but not in a romantic way. And Firefly hit that head on and dealt with it in a very adult way. But these writers had to do the triangle thing and it just ended in tears for almost everybody.

I would have liked to see them that way too; I really liked Mal and Zoe's relationship. But if they were trying to go the romance route with the two, they should've made them more like Sheridan and Delenn; even regarding their roles a little. It would've been nice to see Teyla as more of an Ambassador for the Athosians than just another member of John's team(thats the role we mainly saw her in). But that would've made it a way different show.