Asgard Tech vs. Ancient Tech

[mickhhh]

Still a transporter. .

not beaming tech. beaming tech is much more advanced.

Yeah. That was the point. The ancient satellite was a very effective weapon considering the weak power source it had (mark I naquadah generator).

dont forget it used a buffer. but I was talking about the atlantis shield.

Of course. But an Ancient ship with ZPMs has much more powerful shields.

thats yet to be desided. but yeah it probly does. yet I dout they would be as strong as the oddys. the fact that the asgard shields are more powerful when ZPMless suggests they are more advanced.

Doesn't matter, it's still Ancient tech.

Ancient shields > any other shields.

it does matter. if the asgard or ori build a shield to protect there most important city it would be way more powerful than there war ships. so we cant judge on this. we can only judge war ship against war ship.

He was still an Ancient. The fact that he was ascended some time ago didn't influence what species he was when he returned to a physical body.

yes but the tech he used was probly ascended tech. I am pretty sure this thread is comparing asgard tech to pre ascended tech.

Ascended beings are not allowed to influence anything in our dimension. Noninterference and all that. He had to regain his corporeal form to build anything physical

then wot tools did he use?
even if he did build it after he must have planed it all out before he took corporeal form. therefore thinking the tech up as an ascended been

[Mike.]

not beaming tech. beaming tech is much more advanced.

Still a transporter. Regardless of the "enclosure" of the beam.

dont forget it used a buffer.

Yeah but it didn't even drain the naquadah generator. Plenty of power left. It could have fired again (with a little time) if the bypass circuits McKay jury-rigged hadn't blown.

but I was talking about the atlantis shield.

But being impenetrable is still way more awesome. Who cares about fuel efficiency when you've got rules-of-physics-breaking-can-blow-up-a-star-system ZPMs. Also I don't think we can call it a power hog considering how much abuse it can take. That weapons fire (action) has to be resisted with an equally powerful opposite reaction.

thats yet to be desided. but yeah it probly does. yet I dout they would be as strong as the oddys. the fact that the asgard shields are more powerful when ZPMless suggests they are more advanced.

304 shields without ZPMs just have good buffers. Stand still long enough while taking fire and you'll hear Carter telling you that the shields are at 70%...20%....5%....... (*connection lost*)

As long as there is power Ancient shields don't fail. They don't need buffers, just run straight off the ZPM/caldera power("Inferno") / lightning("The Storm")

Charging Odyssey's shields with a ZPM is will make them as strong as Ancient shields (for extended periods of time) because we simply copied the Ancient's approach - no need for a buffer that gets quickly drained. As far as I know the Asgard never came close to inventing such a system where a power source with enough throughput would maintain the shield on its own.
That was all us stealing the Ancient's ways.

it does matter. if the asgard or ori build a shield to protect there most important city it would be way more powerful than there war ships. so we cant judge on this. we can only judge war ship against war ship.

It's still Ancient tech. This thread is about tech vs. tech not ship vs. ship.

Ancient tech (regardless of its source) wins.

yes but the tech he used was probly ascended tech. I am pretty sure this thread is comparing asgard tech to pre ascended tech.

I don't see the distinction being made anywhere in the original post. Besides, Merlin was not that special, many Ancients would have went through an almost ascended state with access to ascended knowledge during the transitional phase, and would have had time to put it to good use like McKay did in Tao of Rodney.

then wot tools did he use?
even if he did build it after he must have planed it all out before he took corporeal form. therefore thinking the tech up as an ascended been

I don't think obtaining tools would have been so difficult for a flesh-and-blood person that used to live on/built Atlantis considering how much "stuff" the Ancients left lying around all over MW and PG. Regarding the schematics/info - this point was dealt with above.
If he ever made anything which was only possible to an Ascended Being the Others would have dealt with him. This is how Anubis stayed out of their crosshairs.

This reminds me - did they ever establish what powered the Black Knight / riches transporter ? Maybe we could have scored a ZPM...

[Buba uognarf]

asgard had no use for uberdevastating weapons. but that doesn't mean the asgard don't have the ability to do it.

The burdon of proof is on you to prove they could build weapons on the same scale as the Ancients. We've seen more than one weapon of the Ancients which can affect an entire galaxy.

considering the rather sudden change in weapons effectiveness regarding asgard tech, specific weapons are the asgard's speciality. also did it occur to you that the LA in their ambush probably took out the APBW's when the hammond didn't have it's shields raised?

[/QUOTE]

Sorry but creating a single effective weapon does not equal specific weapons speciality. That's utter rubbish. The Asgard couldn't create a specific weapon to counter the Replicators, guess they're not the specialists you deem them to be.

The 304's are able to take a ton of damage from Ori, Wraith, and Asuran ships despite being a fraction of the size of Ancient ships. If shield technology scales well then an Asgard ship the same size of an Ancient ship would definitely be able to match or exceed Ancient shields.

What's that based on? Yes 304's have good shields but we've never seen what a brand new fully manned and powered Ancient vessel can do. There's no real basis for comparison considering the Asuran copies were subpar compared to what we've previously seen and all other Ancient vessels are 10,000 years old.

But the defense satellite was about the size of a Ha'tak while a 304 isn't even half that size and has half a dozen Asgard beams. We don't know what an Asgard weapon the size of the Ancient defense satellite can do.

The defense had more components to it than just a giant gun. It may have had multiple turrets for example. It would have had many of the systems our 304's have, it needed life support, shields, a powersource, engines for maneuvering etc...

It also skewed a Hive ship in a single shot and kept going that beam looked like it had enough punch to get through a few in a row.

We can debate the little technologies all day long but the fact is when you look at who has the big pieces of tech the real uber devices it's the Ancients who are the clear winners.

[mickhhh]

Still a transporter. Regardless of the "enclosure" of the beam.

but thats not merlin tech. asgard beaming tech is more advanced than atlantis transporters. so thats 1-0 asgard

Yeah but it didn't even drain the naquadah generator. Plenty of power left. It could have fired again (with a little time) if the bypass circuits McKay jury-rigged hadn't blown.

a nag generater could probly go for day at full. 304s can fire an asgard beam every second plus power shields, engins and general systems all at only. surely the asgard beams take less power. even if that sat had a zpm it might not be able to fire much faster because of over heating or something.

But being impenetrable is still way more awesome. Who cares about fuel efficiency when you've got rules-of-physics-breaking-can-blow-up-a-star-system ZPMs. Also I don't think we can call it a power hog considering how much abuse it can take. That weapons fire (action) has to be resisted with an equally powerful opposite reaction.

all shields should be able to take a certain amount of fire power indefinitely until there power source runs out. atlantis could hold of 10 hives like this. they did say the shield was under great strain so 12-13 probly would have been to much and they would have started to fall like they did againt the super hive.
a 304 seemed like it could have held off michaels ship until the buffer ran out. this is maybe 30 times less than 10 hives. so thats at the most 30 times weaker and atlantis shield generater could well be 30 times the size of a 304s.
so if you think like that they could well be quite even

304 shields without ZPMs just have good buffers. Stand still long enough while taking fire and you'll hear Carter telling you that the shields are at 70%...20%....5%....... (*connection lost*)

As long as there is power Ancient shields don't fail. They don't need buffers, just run straight off the ZPM/caldera power("Inferno") / lightning("The Storm")

Charging Odyssey's shields with a ZPM is will make them as strong as Ancient shields (for extended periods of time) because we simply copied the Ancient's approach - no need for a buffer that gets quickly drained. As far as I know the Asgard never came close to inventing such a system where a power source with enough throughput would maintain the shield on its own.
That was all us stealing the Ancient's ways.

the oddy shield held up against 4 ori ships for about 10 mins and an Aurora shields are downed after 1 hit with an asgard beam. 304s shield gereraters can clearly take a higher stain and they are atleast 5-8 times smaller(meaning smaller generaters).
we have no idea how power asgard power sources are. the only thing we have to go off is the fact they can get gaint asgart ships to the same speed as 304s when powered by ZPMs. also in unending the core lasted just as long as the the ZPM which does not prove but does suggest it is of never equal power.

It's still Ancient tech. This thread is about tech vs. tech not ship vs. ship.

Ancient tech (regardless of its source) wins.

this is like comparing a staff weapon to a this.
the bush master is much stronger cos it is in a different wieght class just like the atlantis shield. this does not make it more advanced

I don't see the distinction being made anywhere in the original post. Besides, Merlin was not that special, many Ancients would have went through an almost ascended state with access to ascended knowledge during the transitional phase, and would have had time to put it to good use like McKay did in Tao of Rodney.

the ancients where not ascending when fighting the wraith and from watching THE RETURN they clearly were not this advanced

I don't think obtaining tools would have been so difficult for a flesh-and-blood person that used to live on/built Atlantis considering how much "stuff" the Ancients left lying around all over MW and PG. Regarding the schematics/info - this point was dealt with above.
If he ever made anything which was only possible to an Ascended Being the Others would have dealt with him. This is how Anubis stayed out of their crosshairs.

This reminds me - did they ever establish what powered the Black Knight / riches transporter ? Maybe we could have scored a ZPM...

I did not say only an ascended being could understand this tech but he could have thought it up as an ascended. they did not have beaming tech before and i dont think flash and blood merlin just thought it up by him self.

i think its more likely the black knight is powered by a crystal

[Buba uognarf]

all shields should be able to take a certain amount of fire power indefinitely until there power source runs out. atlantis could hold of 10 hives like this. they did say the shield was under great strain so 12-13 probly would have been to much and they would have started to fall like they did againt the super hive.
a 304 seemed like it could have held off michaels ship until the buffer ran out. this is maybe 30 times less than 10 hives. so thats at the most 30 times weaker and atlantis shield generater could well be 30 times the size of a 304s.
so if you think like that they could well be quite even

Completely flawed logic. Full of assumptions. No evidence to your claims.

Atlantis shield is downright better and it's not even a warship.

the oddy shield held up against 4 ori ships for about 10 mins and an Aurora shields are downed after 1 hit with an asgard beam. 304s shield gereraters can clearly take a higher stain and they are atleast 5-8 times smaller(meaning smaller generaters).
we have no idea how power asgard power sources are. the only thing we have to go off is the fact they can get gaint asgart ships to the same speed as 304s when powered by ZPMs. also in unending the core lasted just as long as the the ZPM which does not prove but does suggest it is of never equal power.

- Aurora shields have never been tested by the Asgard beams. The Asuran versions were inferior, their offensive abilities were clearly far weaker (we know even crippled Ancient warships can decimate a Hive in second) thus claiming their shields are of Ancient standard is completely flawed.
- We've never seen either the 304's shield generator or an Aurora shield generator. Hence your '5-8 times smaller' claim is bull.
- Your Asgard powersource comparison is also flawed. It's possible there is a 'terminal velocity' for Asgard drives that can't be overcome by simply adding power. It's also possible that the Asgard vessels have way better engines anyway. As for the Asgard Core lasting as long as the ZPM for all we know it could have been powering extremely minor systems and taken much less of the load when compared to the ZPM. When we see an Asgard powersource capable of dialing a Supergate, one shotting a planet, defending a ship for days against a fleet etc...come talk to me.

[mickhhh]

Completely flawed logic. Full of assumptions. No evidence to your claims.

Atlantis shield is downright better and it's not even a warship.

there is no evidence either way thats the whole point in debating this.
been a city its far larger and more valuble of cos its going to have greater defences

- Aurora shields have never been tested by the Asgard beams. The Asuran versions were inferior, their offensive abilities were clearly far weaker (we know even crippled Ancient warships can decimate a Hive in second) thus claiming their shields are of Ancient standard is completely flawed.
- We've never seen either the 304's shield generator or an Aurora shield generator. Hence your '5-8 times smaller' claim is bull.
- Your Asgard powersource comparison is also flawed. It's possible there is a 'terminal velocity' for Asgard drives that can't be overcome by simply adding power. It's also possible that the Asgard vessels have way better engines anyway. As for the Asgard Core lasting as long as the ZPM for all we know it could have been powering extremely minor systems and taken much less of the load when compared to the ZPM. When we see an Asgard powersource capable of dialing a Supergate, one shotting a planet, defending a ship for days against a fleet etc...come talk to me

and your assuming the Asuran versions have different shields. they have ZPMs just the same.
learn to read and you would see I said its not proof. its just all we have to go on.
for all we no the core could be even more powerful. there is no evidence either way.
304s are 5-8 times smaller to its a reasonable suggestion.
if Auroras were so power they would have never lost the war.
and when u have some good evidence let me no instead of telling me what I said is not fact when I all ready pointed that out!!!

btw we have never seen a zpm dial a supergate?

[Buba uognarf]

there is no evidence either way thats the whole point in debating this.
been a city its far larger and more valuble of cos its going to have greater defences

Atlantis is larger and more valuable but at the same time it's a lot older and not designed for combat from the ground up.

and your assuming the Asuran versions have different shields. they have ZPMs just the same.
learn to read and you would see I said its not proof. its just all we have to go on.
for all we no the core could be even more powerful. there is no evidence either way.
304s are 5-8 times smaller to its a reasonable suggestion.
if Auroras were so power they would have never lost the war.
and when u have some good evidence let me no instead of telling me what I said is not fact when I all ready pointed that out!!!

btw we have never seen a zpm dial a supergate?

The difference is I'm not claiming Ancient Aurora shields are far superior to Asgard shields, I'm simply refutting your flawed arguments.

ZPM's are entirely different to ships, we have evidence that their ships are inferior at least in there offensive systems you therefore have no basis to claim Asuran ships = Ancient ships. You need to prove their shields are equal despite their offensive systems obviously being inferior.

It's not a reasonable suggestion, all things being equal defending a much larger ship would require much more power and more/bigger shield generators anyway. Scaling in SG is inconsistant as well BTW so don't cling to your 5-8 times too strongly.

The burdon of proof is on you to prove the Asgard Core is comparable to a ZPM, not for me to prove it's not. That's how evidence works you need to find evidence to support your theory for it to be taken seriously. Thus far Ancient power generation has dwarfed what we've seen from the Asgard.

As for telling me to 'learn to read' that's which coming from someone with your grammer. Learn to structure a decent argument based on facts.

And a ZPM was used to dial to Supergate to the Ori Galaxy in the Ark of Truth.

[mickhhh]

Atlantis is larger and more valuable but at the same time it's a lot older and not designed for combat from the ground up.

well by this logic atlantis should be weaker than Aurora classes.

The difference is I'm not claiming Ancient Aurora shields are far superior to Asgard shields, I'm simply refutting your flawed arguments.

ZPM's are entirely different to ships, we have evidence that their ships are inferior at least in there offensive systems you therefore have no basis to claim Asuran ships = Ancient ships. You need to prove their shields are equal despite their offensive systems obviously being inferior.

It's not a reasonable suggestion, all things being equal defending a much larger ship would require much more power and more/bigger shield generators anyway. Scaling in SG is inconsistant as well BTW so don't cling to your 5-8 times too strongly.

The burdon of proof is on you to prove the Asgard Core is comparable to a ZPM, not for me to prove it's not. That's how evidence works you need to find evidence to support your theory for it to be taken seriously. Thus far Ancient power generation has dwarfed what we've seen from the Asgard.

As for telling me to 'learn to read' that's which coming from someone with your grammer. Learn to structure a decent argument based on facts.

And a ZPM was used to dial to Supergate to the Ori Galaxy in the Ark of Truth

and I said my self it was my suggestion. I did not say fact.

and u cant prove Asuran shields are weaker. if they were as advanced as asgard shields a large ancient fleet would have been unbeatable to the wraith. even if they were out numbered 10 to 1.
lets not forget that the only ZPM powered ancient Aurora we have ever heard of was defeated by wraith cruiser. the oddy could take on a ridiculous amount of cruisers.

I did not say 5-8 times stronger. but a ship that is larger should have stronger shields. just to clarify I am not saying this is fact its just how I have come to think of it because of our lack of no how.
first think of a circle and the circumference as the shield and the area as the shield generater size. assuming the size of the shield generater is directly proportional to its out put a scaled up ship should be able to support a stronger shield. the math is pretty simple and it does not take everything into account but it could be a start if some1 were to make a game or something.

its not a english test. normaly people type quick, shorten words and grammer is not a factor. and i am not sad enough to even think about these things like some. but atleast I read people posts and dont start saying they say 1 thing when they didnt. but back to the debate

I forgot about that I just thought they used the black hole.

[Buba uognarf]

well by this logic atlantis should be weaker than Aurora classes.

We've deviating from the point I was making. Which is that Atlantis shield > Any Asgard shield, the side point was that Atlantis doesn't necessarily have the best shield possible on it either.

and I said my self it was my suggestion. I did not say fact.

And your suggestion was wrong.

and u cant prove Asuran shields are weaker. if they were as advanced as asgard shields a large ancient fleet would have been unbeatable to the wraith. even if they were out numbered 10 to 1.
lets not forget that the only ZPM powered ancient Aurora we have ever heard of was defeated by wraith cruiser. the oddy could take on a ridiculous amount of cruisers.

So you think an Asgard ship can take on 10 Hives by itslef? Good to know the Asgard Fanwank on this board is as strong as ever.

I've already proved Asuran ship inferiority. Next question.

So you're next piece of evidence is a vague reference to a battle we didn't witness? Nice. Anything could have happened to the Tria for all we know it could have been ambushed, there could have been hundreds of Cruisers etc...Without knowing the details we can't judge.

I did not say 5-8 times stronger. but a ship that is larger should have stronger shields. just to clarify I am not saying this is fact its just how I have come to think of it because of our lack of no how.

I think you misunderstood me. I meant scaling is inconsistant so your whole 5-8 times larger is subject to change. Volume increases exponentially compared to length so a ship twice the length would have 4 times the volume (both being the same shape), however it's not that simple there's a lot more to take into account than just volume, it's also how it's used.

first think of a circle and the circumference as the shield and the area as the shield generater size. assuming the size of the shield generater is directly proportional to its out put a scaled up ship should be able to support a stronger shield. the math is pretty simple and it does not take everything into account but it could be a start if some1 were to make a game or something.

We're not playing a game lol.

its not a english test. normaly people type quick, shorten words and grammer is not a factor. and i am not sad enough to even think about these things like some. but atleast I read people posts and dont start saying they say 1 thing when they didnt. but back to the debate

Having clear paragraphs, good punctuation and capital letters is a necessity for a good debate. And I have read your posts, you misunderstanding them does not equal me not reading.

I forgot about that I just thought they used the black hole.

Alot of people forget about it.

[Mike.]

but thats not merlin tech.

Merlin is still an Ancient.

a nag generater could probly go for day at full. 304s can fire an asgard beam every second plus power shields, engins and general systems all at only. surely the asgard beams take less power.

A 304 has a much more powerful reactor than a crappy, single, mark 1 naquadah generator. It might even use naquadria instead; they made a big thing about its discovery on Jonas' planet.
I know for sure that a hyperspace capable 302 fighter uses naquadria.

Also it can't sustain this much power usage for a long time. If it's under fire it has to leave the area before the shields are completely drained.

even if that sat had a zpm it might not be able to fire much faster because of over heating or something.

A ZPM will allow them to use the weapons at their maximum capacity without having to worry about power usage, or having to divert some of it to the shields. They'll be able to keep firing indefinitely since the shield would also be powered by the ZPM.

all shields should be able to take a certain amount of fire power indefinitely until there power source runs out.

Nope. This is only true for Ancient shields and being fed directly by a ZPM.

atlantis could hold of 10 hives like this.

15 Wraith Hive Ships, 45 Wraith Cruisers and lots of darts. [...]

they did say the shield was under great strain so 12-13 probly would have been to much and they would have started to fall like they did againt the super hive.

Not likely. McKay said that the ZPM would power the shield for a few days. In First Strike McKay said that if they would drain a ZPM on the shields in 39 hours (resisting the Asuran beam)(fact).

McKAY: Look, if they’re able to maintain the energy beam’s intensity -- which I’m sure they will ...

WEIR: And how long ‘til our shield fails?

(Rodney sighs again.)

McKAY: It’s twenty-nine hours.

If they would have to drain a ZPM in 39 hours in a Wraith attack they would resist at least 46 hives [...] and the 138 escort cruisers.
(approximated Mckay's "within days" quote to 5 days in the equation. Even a smaller number will still result in a large number of hive ships (+escorts) being ineffective).

If Atlantis uses 3 ZPMs all the resistance times above get tripled.

a 304 seemed like it could have held off michaels ship until the buffer ran out. this is maybe 30 times less than 10 hives. so thats at the most 30 times weaker and atlantis shield generater could well be 30 times the size of a 304s.

I demonstrated above that Atlantis could resist a much larger number of hives if it had to. Even this was only limited by the the capacity of a ZPM.

Also we don't know anything about the size of either shields.

so if you think like that they could well be quite even

Theoretically and only if they use the Ancient approach and tie in a ZPM directly. However there's a high risk that the 304's shield emitters would burn out long before reaching this high power usage.

the oddy shield held up against 4 ori ships for about 10 mins and an Aurora shields are downed after 1 hit with an asgard beam.

Flawed comparison. We never saw Ori weapons hitting Ancient shields. It's apples and oranges.

Also I don't think we ever saw a fully operational Ancient Aurora (and that we're sure was powered by multiple ZPMs) go against an Asgard beam.

304s shield gereraters can clearly take a higher stain and they are atleast 5-8 times smaller(meaning smaller generaters).

We don't know anything about the size of either shield generators and the strength comparisons are inconclusive.

we have no idea how power asgard power sources are. the only thing we have to go off is the fact they can get gaint asgart ships to the same speed as 304s when powered by ZPMs.

We know that Asgard power sources are much weaker. For an Asgard ship to go at super speed all the auxiliary systems have to be shut down first. When the Daedalus was powered by a ZPM it had no such issues. In Mckay and Mrs Miller we saw that the output of a ZPM is enormous, they managed to drain one in minutes. A ZPM can also blow up a solar system, I don't think we ever saw any Asgard technology that could do that.

also in unending the core lasted just as long as the the ZPM which does not prove but does suggest it is of never equal power.

There's no indication that they supplied an equal amount of power in that time or even that the Asgard core powered any of the ship's systems. Time is not a good way to judge these things.

Analogy: a battery powering a toy car for 39 hours is not as strong as a ZPM powering Atlantis' shield for 39 hours.

this is like comparing a staff weapon to a this.
the bush master is much stronger cos it is in a different wieght class just like the atlantis shield. this does not make it more advanced

Tech vs. tech. By the way, we saw larger versions of staff weapons on turrets that could be stronger than that thing.

the ancients where not ascending when fighting the wraith and from watching THE RETURN they clearly were not this advanced

During the first siege of Atlantis it was noted that some Ancients ascended or returned to Earth. By the end of their civilization ascension was not something so rare. They also had the ascension machine Mckay used that was proved able to get the body in the required state. Ancients also ascended during the plague in MW (that before they went to Pegasus). The Ancient frozen in Antarctica that was a carrier was also very close (healing poweres, etc.)

I did not say only an ascended being could understand this tech but he could have thought it up as an ascended. they did not have beaming tech before and i dont think flash and blood merlin just thought it up by him self.

Regardless, he needed a physical body to build anything. And to build something you still have to understand it (more or less).

i think its more likely the black knight is powered by a crystal

Cool. It could be that. However they'd also need to power Merlin's stasis chamber for a really long time, and the energy-matter converting build-what-you-think-about devices. If they can handle all of that... The SGC should spend more time studying them.

[mickhhh]

We've deviating from the point I was making. Which is that Atlantis shield > Any Asgard shield, the side point was that Atlantis doesn't necessarily have the best shield possible on it either.

I think its pretty clear atlantis was there strongest thing they had defensive wise. I am not saying the asgard ever build a better shield but i just think if they ever built a city like atlantis theres a chance they could build a shield that equals it.

plus the main thing i am trying to say is there war shield tech is better. if I was going to build a fleet of war ships I think it would be better to have asgard shields.

And your suggestion was wrong.

it was not wrong or right. its fiction and we dont no enough and until the writers give us more we will only have our opinions.

So you think an Asgard ship can take on 10 Hives by itslef? Good to know the Asgard Fanwank on this board is as strong as ever.

I've already proved Asuran ship inferiority. Next question.

So you're next piece of evidence is a vague reference to a battle we didn't witness? Nice. Anything could have happened to the Tria for all we know it could have been ambushed, there could have been hundreds of Cruisers etc...Without knowing the details we can't judge.

I think a larger version of the oddy could eay take 10 hives out. the oddy took fire from 4 ori ships for about 10mins or so. this is much more frie power than 10 hives and a larger version would have done even better. plus asgard beam weapons are very effective aganist hives. its not fanwick its a fair point.

no no no. we no they didnt use drones on us thats all. there was no evidence to say there shields were weaker.

that reference is all we have to go off. we a have never large fleets of Cruisers. she just said they were to much. if they were am bushed she would have said.

I think you misunderstood me. I meant scaling is inconsistant so your whole 5-8 times larger is subject to change. Volume increases exponentially compared to length so a ship twice the length would have 4 times the volume (both being the same shape), however it's not that simple there's a lot more to take into account than just volume, it's also how it's used.

we can put every thing into account we can just make the best gess we can. I cant say the rate of shield power increase but there must be 1 atleast.

We're not playing a game lol.

I no just thought its a good way to show scaled up ship have stronger shield.

Having clear paragraphs, good punctuation and capital letters is a necessity for a good debate. And I have read your posts, you misunderstanding them does not equal me not reading.

I will just end this now cos I dont really care and I dont come on here to debate punctuation. simple as that!

Alot of people forget about it.

I thought it was a bit silly really. I thought the whole point in the blackhole was to power the supergate.

[lordofseas]

Merlin is still an Ancient.


A 304 has a much more powerful reactor than a crappy, single, mark 1 naquadah generator. It might even use naquadria instead; they made a big thing about its discovery on Jonas' planet.
I know for sure that a hyperspace capable 302 fighter uses naquadria.

Also it can't sustain this much power usage for a long time. If it's under fire it has to leave the area before the shields are completely drained.



A ZPM will allow them to use the weapons at their maximum capacity without having to worry about power usage, or having to divert some of it to the shields. They'll be able to keep firing indefinitely since the shield would also be powered by the ZPM.




Nope. This is only true for Ancient shields and being fed directly by a ZPM.



15 Wraith Hive Ships, 45 Wraith Cruisers and lots of darts. [...]


Not likely. McKay said that the ZPM would power the shield for a few days. In First Strike McKay said that if they would drain a ZPM on the shields in 39 hours (resisting the Asuran beam)(fact).



If they would have to drain a ZPM in 39 hours in a Wraith attack they would resist at least 46 hives [...] and the 138 escort cruisers.
(approximated Mckay's "within days" quote to 5 days in the equation. Even a smaller number will still result in a large number of hive ships (+escorts) being ineffective).

If Atlantis uses 3 ZPMs all the resistance times above get tripled.



I demonstrated above that Atlantis could resist a much larger number of hives if it had to. Even this was only limited by the the capacity of a ZPM.

Also we don't know anything about the size of either shields.



Theoretically and only if they use the Ancient approach and tie in a ZPM directly. However there's a high risk that the 304's shield emitters would burn out long before reaching this high power usage.




Flawed comparison. We never saw Ori weapons hitting Ancient shields. It's apples and oranges.

Also I don't think we ever saw a fully operational Ancient Aurora (and that we're sure was powered by multiple ZPMs) go against an Asgard beam.


We don't know anything about the size of either shield generators and the strength comparisons are inconclusive.



We know that Asgard power sources are much weaker. For an Asgard ship to go at super speed all the auxiliary systems have to be shut down first. When the Daedalus was powered by a ZPM it had no such issues. In Mckay and Mrs Miller we saw that the output of a ZPM is enormous, they managed to drain one in minutes. A ZPM can also blow up a solar system, I don't think we ever saw any Asgard technology that could do that.

No, but they can collapse a star. Just sayin.

There's no indication that they supplied an equal amount of power in that time or even that the Asgard core powered any of the ship's systems. Time is not a good way to judge these things.

Analogy: a battery powering a toy car for 39 hours is not as strong as a ZPM powering Atlantis' shield for 39 hours.




Tech vs. tech. By the way, we saw larger versions of staff weapons on turrets that could be stronger than that thing.



During the first siege of Atlantis it was noted that some Ancients ascended or returned to Earth. By the end of their civilization ascension was not something so rare. They also had the ascension machine Mckay used that was proved able to get the body in the required state. Ancients also ascended during the plague in MW (that before they went to Pegasus). The Ancient frozen in Antarctica that was a carrier was also very close (healing poweres, etc.)



Regardless, he needed a physical body to build anything. And to build something you still have to understand it (more or less).


Cool. It could be that. However they'd also need to power Merlin's stasis chamber for a really long time, and the energy-matter converting build-what-you-think-about devices. If they can handle all of that... The SGC should spend more time studying them.

[Buba uognarf]

I think its pretty clear atlantis was there strongest thing they had defensive wise. I am not saying the asgard ever build a better shield but i just think if they ever built a city like atlantis theres a chance they could build a shield that equals it.

plus the main thing i am trying to say is there war shield tech is better. if I was going to build a fleet of war ships I think it would be better to have asgard shields.

There's no evidence that the Asgard could build a shield and power a shield as powerful as Atlantis'. You can speculate all you want but the fact remains the Ancients have displayed the most powerful shield.

As for warships, that's debatable.

it was not wrong or right. its fiction and we dont no enough and until the writers give us more we will only have our opinions.

It's wrong because the evidence shows us otherwise...

I think a larger version of the oddy could eay take 10 hives out. the oddy took fire from 4 ori ships for about 10mins or so. this is much more frie power than 10 hives and a larger version would have done even better. plus asgard beam weapons are very effective aganist hives. its not fanwick its a fair point.

The Odyssesy has a ZPM, could it last for several minutes with an Asgard powersource? I doubt it and you have no way to prove it could hence you should forfeit the point. Also in Unending the Odyssesy's shield was far weaker than AOT, funny how you cling to the high end and ignore the low end.

no no no. we no they didnt use drones on us thats all. there was no evidence to say there shields were weaker.

Drones were used, they were just used in pitiful numbers and didn't behave like we've seen previously. The fact is I've shown their Aurora's aren't the same as Ancient Aurora's, that's the bottom line. Their offensive systems were inferior hence I don't need to prove the shields are weaker as it's already been shown that the Asuran versions aren't the same as the Ancients.

that reference is all we have to go off. we a have never large fleets of Cruisers. she just said they were to much. if they were am bushed she would have said.

A reference with no details isn't strong evidence. We don't know the circumstances and we only saw a portion of the briefing who knows what was said before the scene cut in.

we can put every thing into account we can just make the best gess we can. I cant say the rate of shield power increase but there must be 1 atleast.

TBH you have no evidence Aurora shields are weaker as we've never seen a fully functional Ancient Aurora before.

I no just thought its a good way to show scaled up ship have stronger shield.

OK.

I will just end this now cos I dont really care and I dont come on here to debate punctuation. simple as that!

Alright.

I thought it was a bit silly really. I thought the whole point in the blackhole was to power the supergate.

Yeah well it just adds another notch in the ZPM's favor. Notice using the Asgard Core didn't come up, that combined with the fact that if it was superior to a ZPM it would be used to power the main systems proves that...ZPM > Asgard Core.

[mickhhh]

There's no evidence that the Asgard could build a shield and power a shield as powerful as Atlantis'. You can speculate all you want but the fact remains the Ancients have displayed the most powerful shield.

As for warships, that's debatable.

atlantis is like the Burj Khalifa. it bigger and better than everything else but this does not mean Dubai is greater than New York and in the same way atlantis does not mean that over all there shield tech is better than the asgards.

It's wrong because the evidence shows us otherwise...

what evidence do you have?

The Odyssesy has a ZPM, could it last for several minutes with an Asgard powersource? I doubt it and you have no way to prove it could hence you should forfeit the point. Also in Unending the Odyssesy's shield was far weaker than AOT, funny how you cling to the high end and ignore the low end.

the high end is it at the best and because it was after something must have been changed or upgraded. so why would I take about old tech

Drones were used, they were just used in pitiful numbers and didn't behave like we've seen previously. The fact is I've shown their Aurora's aren't the same as Ancient Aurora's, that's the bottom line. Their offensive systems were inferior hence I don't need to prove the shields are weaker as it's already been shown that the Asuran versions aren't the same as the Ancients.

just cos 1 thing is different does not mean you can assume every thing else is. you have to prove it is.

A reference with no details isn't strong evidence. We don't know the circumstances and we only saw a portion of the briefing who knows what was said before the scene cut in.

well theres nothing better to suggest there ships have better shields.

TBH you have no evidence Aurora shields are weaker as we've never seen a fully functional Ancient Aurora before.

for the last time. I am not saying there is evidence just some points that can swing poeples opinions

Yeah well it just adds another notch in the ZPM's favor. Notice using the Asgard Core didn't come up, that combined with the fact that if it was superior to a ZPM it would be used to power the main systems proves that...ZPM > Asgard Core.

all as we no is the asgard core was made to stop the ZPM from been drained. so at the very least it must be on the same level. a ZPM is is way to much of a ship. you probly only need a small faction of it to fully power a ship. so as long as the asgad core is powerful enough to do that it does not matter.

[Buba uognarf]

atlantis is like the Burj Khalifa. it bigger and better than everything else but this does not mean Dubai is greater than New York and in the same way atlantis does not mean that over all there shield tech is better than the asgards.

In a war time situation where your extremely outnumbered by your enemy putting your best shields on a ship may not be practical, we know the Ancients are capable of building shields as powerful as those of Atlantis. Therefore they have the best shields.

what evidence do you have?

Forgive me I forgot what the initial point was, there is no evidence either way. My first point was that it's incorrect to make such a radical statement and then pass it off as likely to be true. For all we know the Ancients use lots of small shield generators on their ships either way there's nothing to suggest they had MASSIVE shield generators.

the high end is it at the best and because it was after something must have been changed or upgraded. so why would I take about old tech

Why is the high end the best? That's just dishonest. We should go by what's most consistant. So you're telling me the Asgard gave us their best tech and then we improved it even further in a few months? What rubbish. For all we know it could have been the replicators who increased the shield power we've seen them improve Asgard shields before.

Regardless Atlantis > Odyssesy, and the Odyssesy's performance could be solely due to the Ancient ZPM powering it anyway.

just cos 1 thing is different does not mean you can assume every thing else is. you have to prove it is.

You're wrong. I've already showed their ships aren't the same, my job is done. Infact I've showed that their ships are vastly inferior in offensive power the burdon of proof is on you to show why their shields would be equal while other systems are dramatically sweaker. Larrin's Aurora wiped out an Asuran Aurora with 2 drones, if the Traveller Aurora had similar shields it wouldn't have survived the engagement.

well theres nothing better to suggest there ships have better shields.

Atlantis would have shields litterally hundreds to thousands of times stronger than their ships if a few Cruisers could take out a ZPM powered Aurora, seems unlikely doesn't it? Not only that but the Ancients even believed their ships were invincible and thus sent them deep into Wraith territory, we also have multiple statements saying that the Ancient vessels were vastly superior to the Wraiths. Also the level of technology the Ancients have displayed time and time again points to your claims being bogus.

In the episode which first introduced us to the Travellers a damaged 10,000 year old Aurora with 20% of it's shields was able to repel a Cruiser for minutes. It also destroyed said Cruiser in seconds with a volley of drones, based on that alone it would take a large number of Cruisers to take down even a normal Aurora let alone one with a ZPM.

Time and time again your claims are proven to be unfounded. Your underestimation of the Ancients is quite astounding.

for the last time. I am not saying there is evidence just some points that can swing poeples opinions

So you admit you have no evidence, good. Basically you like to make up silly claims to make the Ancients appear weaker then when you're called up on it you hide behind the 'I'm just saying' excuse, a debate typically has evidence involved. I've seen Ancient underestimation from you and others on this forum for quite some time, so forgive me if I'm being a little coarse with you.

all as we no is the asgard core was made to stop the ZPM from been drained. so at the very least it must be on the same level. a ZPM is is way to much of a ship. you probly only need a small faction of it to fully power a ship. so as long as the asgad core is powerful enough to do that it does not matter.

That's quite a leap, Thor said the Core wouldn't take power from the ZPM that's it, your making up this same level rubbish.

When the Asgard Core or the Asgard in general build and power the type of technology the Ancients have displayed then we can talk about them being in the same league.