Asgard Tech vs. Ancient Tech

[Murzin]

asgard tech is not too difficult for us to duplicate with a bit of study

after years of study with even the stargate, we dont truely understand the tech to duplicate one.

not to mention drones and zpms.

while i dont deny asgard tech is strong, i think it pales in the complexity of ancient tech.

[Giantevilhead]

Complexity isn't necessarily a good thing. Parsimony is one of the most important concepts in science.

[Finger13]

asgard tech is not too difficult for us to duplicate with a bit of study

after years of study with even the stargate, we dont truely understand the tech to duplicate one.

not to mention drones and zpms.

while i dont deny asgard tech is strong, i think it pales in the complexity of ancient tech.

Complexity doesn't always mean superiority. I'm not denying the ingenius and inherently complicated designs of Ancient weapons and tech, and ultimately the Stargate, but that doesn't automatically make them better.

Socially I suppose that the Ancients were more advanced than the Asgard, but militarily I'd say that the Asgard have surpassed them. No, we haven't seen an Asgard shield as powerful as Atlantis' shield, even with the Oddy's ZPM. But the beam weapons own drones. BAMSR seemed to imply that drones don't penetrate all shields, and thus the hundreds of drones necessary to destroy a Hive (and presumably many more to take down an Asgard shield) pale in comparison to the ease with which a beam weapon can slice through a shield in only a few shots, and has a theoretically limitless endurance (as long as there's power).

Asgard beaming > Ancients

Asgard shields on ships > Ancients

Atlantis city shield > Asgard

ZPM's > Asgard (as far as we've seen at least).

Asgard weapons > Ancients

Ancient Holograms > Asgard

Asgard Hyperdrive = Ancients? We really haven't had much chance to compare the two. I doubt the Ancients were that much faster than ours.

Ancient travel >>>>>>>>>> Asgard.

Ancient Ascension >>>>>>>> Asgard cloning.

Ancients also seeded life throughout how many galaxies.

Exploration is where the Ancients obviously excelled, by far.

So militarily, I'd go with the Asgard. But socially, the Ancients wiped the floor.

[Giantevilhead]

I don't think Ancient holograms are better than Asgard Holograms. We don't know how much of the courage test in "Thor's Chariot" was done by holograms. The Asgard are able to project holograms at a very long distance. Also we've never seen Ancient holograms project through shields.

[Gate-builder]

But the beam weapons own drones. BAMSR seemed to imply that drones don't penetrate all shields, and thus the hundreds of drones necessary to destroy a Hive (and presumably many more to take down an Asgard shield) pale in comparison to the ease with which a beam weapon can slice through a shield in only a few shots, and has a theoretically limitless endurance (as long as there's power).

Sure drones might not penetrate all types of shield, but it doesn't mean they don't cause some serious damage. Drones swarm their target so the shield would be getting hit from multiple directions at the same time which would bring it down before too long, and the Ancients could create drones, so running out was never really a problem.
Also drones have a much longer range than beams and can be fired in any direction, you don't have to align your ship to be facing your target. In the end they are a hell of a lot more versatile, I would rather have drones than beams any day.

[Betelgeuze]

Asgard Hyperdrive = Ancients? We really haven't had much chance to compare the two. I doubt the Ancients were that much faster than ours.

When the Atlantis expedition relocated Atlantis, it should have beaten the Deadalus to the new planet. This means that at least Atlantis is faster then Earth ships, even with only one ZPM.

Asgard shields on ships > Ancients

We have not seen a fully functional Ancient warship, with shields at 100% under attack. The Asuran ships aren't identical to the Ancient Warships.

Asgard weapons > Ancients

I'd go with the Ancients on this one. The Ancient beam weapon seen in The Siege is more powerful then the Asgard beam weapon. I also think thet the Ancient weapons are more complex then the Asgard weapons. Earth has been studying the drones for about 5 years, and they still can't build them. They were able to equip their ships with Asgard beam weapons within a year. In both cases they have the blue prints, and an example, but they still can't build Ancient drones and beam weapons.

Asgard beaming > Ancients

I've wondered about this. The Ancients do seem to have beaming technology similar to the Asgard; the transporter on the Sodan world, and the transport device seen in The Quest. Maybe they liked physical exersise, or maybe they didn't have this type of beaming when they build Atlantis.

I don't think Ancient holograms are better than Asgard Holograms. We don't know how much of the courage test in "Thor's Chariot" was done by holograms. The Asgard are able to project holograms at a very long distance. Also we've never seen Ancient holograms project through shields.

Ancient holograms are more interactive then the Asgard holograms. The holograms in Avalon and Camelot can physically interact.

The Ancients were also far more advanced in genetic enginering then the Asgard. The Ancients could alter the genetic code in every cell of an adult with their genetic modification device. And they could actually create humans.

[Murzin]

again, the closets in atlantis that allow quick travel from one spot to another...

they had beaming tech when they built atlantis.

[thekillman]

but not asgard like.


what im trying to say: need forces and determines development. the ancients didnt need superbeamingtech. asgard did. ancients put their ZPM's to good use with atlantis, as its shield is clearly made to run on them. so what im trying to say is: the ancients made as they needed. the Asgard had different needs. and thus different tech.
the ancients needed ascention. the asgard cloned.

asgard cloning>ancient.
ancients research on ascention>asgard research on ascention
though ancients had beam tech, they didnt need it as advanced as the asgard. the lost tribe managed with their exoskeletons, and thus didnt need this beaming tech, allowing more time on the cloning problem.
drones are powerfull. but the asgard seek use in energy weapons.
asgard energy weapons>ancient ones[ the sattelite was more like a particle cannon]
ancient surgical/precision weapons>asgard ones.

the drone is usefull. but to the asgard it was useless. so different needs.


when did we have blueprints for drones? besides, the asgard developed the deadalus' hyperdrive specifically for that ship [technically the Prometheus. but prob redesigned it for teh Deadalus] we prob got the first asgard made hyperdrive, then the asgard showed us how to make our own. just as sensors ETC. the asgard had a hand in their control systems [asgard work station]. and in the beaming tech.


so the asgard made it perfectly fit for us, gave the blueprints and showed us how to make it. the ancients never did, so we have to reverse engineer them. though drones are mindblowingly in their simplicity, its like saying your flashlight is incredibally simple, but then to a guy 200 years ago. it IS simple. but the materials, components are advanced. we can make our own drone. but it wont work as good as an acient one.


what merlin made wasnt pure ancient tech: he was ascended remember?
the ARG made by jack isnt pure ancient either: he was tied into the asgard vessel allowing him to access all asgard knowledge. including repliresearch. the ancients just got the stuff to DO make it work. like your car, and your neightbour has the knowhow to make a battery for it for the ignition.
jack used the knowhow of the Dakara weapon.


the Holograms were ascended tech. merlin clearly planned what he did, and probably made a kind of advanced repository to keep his knowledge, or just picked out what he needed on descending, and forgot the rest. he would still have the remaining Ancient knowledge.

[Betelgeuze]

I agree taht the Ancients and Asgard had different needs, and designed their technology differently because of this.

when did we have blueprints for drones?

This information should be in the Atlantis database.

asgard energy weapons>ancient ones[ the sattelite was more like a particle cannon]

It is still more powerfull then the Asgard beam weapon, but maybe it is not suitable for use on a ship.

so the asgard made it perfectly fit for us, gave the blueprints and showed us how to make it. the ancients never did, so we have to reverse engineer them. though drones are mindblowingly in their simplicity, its like saying your flashlight is incredibally simple, but then to a guy 200 years ago. it IS simple. but the materials, components are advanced. we can make our own drone. but it wont work as good as an acient one

I'm not so sure that the drones are simple. A lot of people speculate about fase shifting technology incorporated into the drones. A hypothesis i have, is that the drones abillity to penetrate matter so easily might be based on the glowing creatures seen in Prodigy. They could pass through matter without getting harmed in the process.

[thekillman]

untrue.


it has:

1: a shield
2: a powersource
3: a comm module to communicate with a chair/control unit
4: a kind of dampener
5: flight stabilizing system.


according to MGM

Spoiler:

[Murzin]

then how does it penetrate shields and physical matter so well?

[Giantevilhead]

When the Atlantis expedition relocated Atlantis, it should have beaten the Deadalus to the new planet. This means that at least Atlantis is faster then Earth ships, even with only one ZPM.

But the Daedalus does not have the best Asgard engines or power generators.

We have not seen a fully functional Ancient warship, with shields at 100% under attack. The Asuran ships aren't identical to the Ancient Warships.

The 304's are a fraction of the size of pretty much all the warships we've seen and their shields have been able to withstand more punishment than pretty much all of them.

I'd go with the Ancients on this one. The Ancient beam weapon seen in The Siege is more powerful then the Asgard beam weapon. I also think thet the Ancient weapons are more complex then the Asgard weapons. Earth has been studying the drones for about 5 years, and they still can't build them. They were able to equip their ships with Asgard beam weapons within a year. In both cases they have the blue prints, and an example, but they still can't build Ancient drones and beam weapons.

The Ancient satellite was huge and it housed one weapon. The 304's have several beam weapons. Also the Asgard computer core doesn't just have the blue prints, it's extremely user friendly, and it can create essential parts needed for the weapon.

I've wondered about this. The Ancients do seem to have beaming technology similar to the Asgard; the transporter on the Sodan world, and the transport device seen in The Quest. Maybe they liked physical exersise, or maybe they didn't have this type of beaming when they build Atlantis.

But Ancient teleporters have never displayed the range or the power of Asgard beams.

Ancient holograms are more interactive then the Asgard holograms. The holograms in Avalon and Camelot can physically interact.

Like I said, we don't know how much of the test in "Thor's Chariot" was created by holograms. If the whole collapsing ground thing was done by holograms then the Asgard would also have interactive holographic technology. Also, the Asgard can project their holograms through shields and at very long distances.

[thekillman]

may i notify that a fully powered apollo wouldve beaten atlantis hands down, as it wouldve gone 4x faster?

[Finger13]

When the Atlantis expedition relocated Atlantis, it should have beaten the Deadalus to the new planet. This means that at least Atlantis is faster then Earth ships, even with only one ZPM.

That is with a ZPM though. Throw the ZPM in the Daedalus and it could be across the Pegasus extremely fast. I won't pretend to know the distances involved, but going from the MW to Pegasus in 4 days means the Daedalus could have probably got there in hours. But since Atlantis was designed for 3 ZPMs, I suppose it's far superior. Especially since adding a ZPM to Asgard drives is sort of like cheating, since the technology isn't theirs and it was designed for it.

So I agree, Ancient drives are superior.

We have not seen a fully functional Ancient warship, with shields at 100% under attack. The Asuran ships aren't identical to the Ancient Warships.

Why aren't they the same? Their Atlantis was, if anything, equal to ours was it not? It had more drives on the underside, but that's the only substantial difference that I can recall. Why wouldn't their warships be the same also? Maybe a different design, but do we know for a fact that the tech and shields are any different? Or is speculation? Because it seems odd to perfectly recreate Atlantis and be able to manufacture ZPM's, then to build cheap knock offs of Ancient warships.

I'd go with the Ancients on this one. The Ancient beam weapon seen in The Siege is more powerful then the Asgard beam weapon. I also think thet the Ancient weapons are more complex then the Asgard weapons. Earth has been studying the drones for about 5 years, and they still can't build them. They were able to equip their ships with Asgard beam weapons within a year. In both cases they have the blue prints, and an example, but they still can't build Ancient drones and beam weapons.

I did forget about the beam weapon in the Siege, that was quite impressive. And it was powered by a Naquadah generator, so it wasn't power hungry either. I was talking about ship weapons though, the drones are amazing weapons, and yeah I guess they're more versatile too, but they still lack the endurance of the Asgard beam weapons and the kill rate. Hit a Hive with 3 or 4 seconds of fire from the beam weapon and it's down, where as drones not only take their time getting to the enemy, but they then have to pass through it several times to destroy it.

I think the Ancient weapons are more impressive and versatile, but that doesn't mean they're more powerful than the Asgard beams. Like I said before, complexity doesn't mean superiority.

I've wondered about this. The Ancients do seem to have beaming technology similar to the Asgard; the transporter on the Sodan world, and the transport device seen in The Quest. Maybe they liked physical exersise, or maybe they didn't have this type of beaming when they build Atlantis.

But again, those examples are point to point transporters. I don't know if that makes it easier to build, I suppose all you would need are some sensors and you could start beaming anywhere, but we haven't seen this. So there is no evidence that the Ancients can beam people at random locations to random locations, only fixed locations that are predetermined.

I never quite understood the rings though. Sometimes it seems like they need another platform to send people to, yet in other episodes they are able to pick things up without another ring platform, like the Kull Warrior that they abduct in Season... 7?

But even still, Asgard beaming technology has been shown to be more capable in its versatility. Maybe the Ancients could do the same, but the examples that we have been shown say otherwise.

Ancient holograms are more interactive then the Asgard holograms. The holograms in Avalon and Camelot can physically interact.

Precisely.

The Ancients were also far more advanced in genetic enginering then the Asgard. The Ancients could alter the genetic code in every cell of an adult with their genetic modification device. And they could actually create humans.

That could have saved the Asgard a lot of trouble lol.

[thekillman]

back to square one:


1: what merlin made isnt ancient made. he was ascended.
2: atlantis was fully powered. apollo wasnt. the hyperdrives are working at 1/4th of their capability. adding a ZPM isnt cheating. but you could also just add some better asgard powersource