'Awakening' (203) General Discussion

[morbosfist]

My point is that if you're going set Destiny on the Universe, ANY limit set would be stupid, no matter how advanced they are.

Not unless you have an idea of where its going.

Let's look at your point.
If Destiny is getting a real-time feed from seed ships, why would the seed ship dock and transfer data?
Rush said he had been able to access the sub space link. the he refers to the database of the planets in it.
Everybody else has only referred to the database, not the subspace link.
It is entirely possible Rush is wrong again.

Why would it dock and transfer? Because it can no longer transmit data, that's why. The simplest explanation is usually the right one. Rush isn't wrong about the subspace link, because everyone who looks in "Life" is able to see it.

[Misfits]

You do realize at this point your theory has already been disproven?

As has been pointed out elsewhere, the further you get from Earth, the less likely it is that total available eight symbol gate addresses (sensible ones) could be used to target gates outside the galaxy. More to the point, it would be ridiculous to design a system that forced you to go back along the areas you already explored when the whole point was to reach Destiny after it had done a bunch of exploring on its own.

Well, let's see. So many points, so many holes.
If all you're doing is exploring forward, why leave the gates behind?
Ancients created and seeded planets to freely travel between them.
As population grew, it would be feasible that colonizing new galaxies would be a possibility.
Think of the railroad tracks. You send advanced teams to clear the area, lay down new tracks, set up stations, etc...
You're setting all this up to use this system, not just to explore new frontier. Exploration of new frontier would not require a gate system.

Having power and being active are two separate things.

If power in the seeder ship was not active, Destiny would not have found it.

But we know it's not a recurring event, because the characters know this isn't supposed to happen. They found the logs of how the project worked. Why be surprised? Surely this feature would have been explained.

The Ancients were planning to come to Destiny. They wouldn't have the need to explain it to themselves.
The main proof of this is 'Darkness/Light'.
If Ancients had come to Destiny they would already know how Destiny re-fueled. Therefore, there would be no need to explain to themselves what they already knew.
The absence of this explanation is the reason why Destiny crew thought Destiny was going to fly into the star and get destroyed.

Destiny has entered a new Galaxy, until we see enough episodes and pass through a few Galaxies, we don't know what is a one-time event and what is a recurring event.

Why have a docking port? In case you need to board it. Why have data transmission? To download information in case the primary relay is offline, or to download information too sensitive to be transmitted over subspace. Why does it take only two hours? Because the Ancients were awesome and could design computers that transfer data at unimaginable speeds.

If Destiny is never supposed to catch up with the seeder ships, why have a dock in the Seeder ship?
What possible information could be too sensitive billions of light years from home?
we're talking about million+ years of data gathering.

Common sense dictates that the simplest answer is correct. If this is intentional, why is the ship almost totally offline? Why is the gate factory stopped in the middle of building a gate. Why does it have an entire supply of gates just sitting there? Because something went wrong, and it stopped.

Common sense dictates that the answer that actually fits is the correct one.

If you look in an assembly line, there are products in various stages of being built. That's how Assembly line manufacturing works.

Just because you stopped to dock, it wouldn't stop the manufacturing process.

We don't, the Ancients would. They're more advanced, and may very well have been capable of determining which direction to go. The only thing we know is that Destiny has gone as long as it has and is still going, with no sign that data storage is or ever will be an issue.

Ancients said there is only one truth, 'The Universe is infinite', then it stands to reason they would make no such claims as edges to the Universe.

[Misfits]

[QUOTE=PG15;11990392]I missed that part of your theory, actually. Can you link me to your post where you detailed it (or if you don't mind, detailing it again)? I don't remember you mentioning modules

and such.

My theory is that the Stargates the Seed Ships are putting on the planets have a base.
Within that base if there is a memory module, then this is the place where all data for the Galaxy would reside.
It would only need to be big enough to contain the data for that Galaxy.
Then, it wouldn't matter how many galaxies was seeded or how long the project ran.
As for Destiny, it would only need summaries and gate addresses.
Once you have that data, you can dial a gate in a Galaxy from home and just download the updated Data of the Galaxy.

However, a limit is not inane if the Ancient knew they were only going to collect so much. The details of the mission is vague at best and we don't really know why they're out there collecting data or how much they're collecting.

A limit would not be inane if the Ancients ha defined how long this project would last. Once you define an end, you can calculate based on a finite number.

The analogy with the Internet is flawed; the "mission" of the Internet is to cater to as many people as possible and that in itself is a vague enough mission that any planning at the start would be obsolete eventually.

The analogy with the Internet was to make a point that placing a limit to infinity is impossible.

Destiny could be different; its mission could be very well planned and the storage space allocated accordingly.

If there was a limit, the first thing that you would limit is the seed ships.

And let's look at that.
Let's say we'll let it run for 10,000 years.Well, the time comes, and the ancients go to Destiny. Things are going so well, lets run it for another 10,000, etc...
When the play field in the Universe, which is infinite, then the logical thing to do is not set limits.

Really, we don't have enough information about Destiny to say much about this point, IMHO.

In that case, we don't have enough information to discuss anything.

[PG15]

My theory is that the Stargates the Seed Ships are putting on the planets have a base.
Within that base if there is a memory module, then this is the place where all data for the Galaxy would reside.
It would only need to be big enough to contain the data for that Galaxy.
Then, it wouldn't matter how many galaxies was seeded or how long the project ran.
As for Destiny, it would only need summaries and gate addresses.
Once you have that data, you can dial a gate in a Galaxy from home and just download the updated Data of the Galaxy.

Ok, that makes sense.

I guess that would mean that, when Destiny gets close to the planet, the gate base will transmit the data to its computers so it'll know what the planets are like, and whether or not it should be locked off?

If there was a limit, the first thing that you would limit is the seed ships.

And let's look at that.
Let's say we'll let it run for 10,000 years.Well, the time comes, and the ancients go to Destiny. Things are going so well, lets run it for another 10,000, etc...
When the play field in the Universe, which is infinite, then the logical thing to do is not set limits.

This point is moot now though, since there is a good chance that the mission is not only about exploration but about reaching a destination; there would be no expanding the mission beyond that if that is the case.

In that case, we don't have enough information to discuss anything.

Yep.

[Misfits]

Not unless you have an idea of where its going.

So, the Ancients knew they were sending the seeder ships and Destiny on a million+ year mission?
Is that what you're claiming?

Why would it dock and transfer? Because it can no longer transmit data, that's why. The simplest explanation is usually the right one.

Usually does not equate to always.

Rush isn't wrong about the subspace link, because everyone who looks in "Life" is able to see it.

In 'Life' or ever since, everyone refers to the database of planets.
Rush theorizes that is how Destiny got it.

If Rush didn't know anything about regular docking with seed ships, then this would be a reasonable theory.

Just like 'Darkness/Light'.
Rush didn't know that this is how Destiny re-fueled, so the natural theory was that the Gas Giant changed the Destiny course too much and set Destiny on a course to the star, which would destroy Destiny.

[morbosfist]

Well, let's see. So many points, so many holes.
If all you're doing is exploring forward, why leave the gates behind?
Ancients created and seeded planets to freely travel between them.
As population grew, it would be feasible that colonizing new galaxies would be a possibility.
Think of the railroad tracks. You send advanced teams to clear the area, lay down new tracks, set up stations, etc...
You're setting all this up to use this system, not just to explore new frontier. Exploration of new frontier would not require a gate system.

The gates are left behind so you don't have to orbit every single planet you want to visit. You can drop out of FTL and be within reach of several gates at once. It's easier than flying a shuttle to every world. Safer, too. If they intended to colonize a galaxy, it would be rather foolish not to do the entire galaxy.

If power in the seeder ship was not active, Destiny would not have found it.

Unless it has sensors. The seeder stopped along its path.

The Ancients were planning to come to Destiny. They wouldn't have the need to explain it to themselves.
The main proof of this is 'Darkness/Light'.
If Ancients had come to Destiny they would already know how Destiny re-fueled. Therefore, there would be no need to explain to themselves what they already knew.
The absence of this explanation is the reason why Destiny crew thought Destiny was going to fly into the star and get destroyed.

Destiny has entered a new Galaxy, until we see enough episodes and pass through a few Galaxies, we don't know what is a one-time event and what is a recurring event.

But we do know that the ship does explain what Destiny is, what the seeders are, and what their purpose is. This is made very clear in the pilot. There's no denying it. If routine stops were part of the mission statement, it'd have been added.

If Destiny is never supposed to catch up with the seeder ships, why have a dock in the Seeder ship?
What possible information could be too sensitive billions of light years from home?
we're talking about million+ years of data gathering.

Again, you need to be able to board a ship, automated or not. This is pure common sense. How do you suppose they built it, programmed it, tested it, and so on?

Common sense dictates that the answer that actually fits is the correct one.

If you look in an assembly line, there are products in various stages of being built. That's how Assembly line manufacturing works.

Just because you stopped to dock, it wouldn't stop the manufacturing process.

And yet the manufacturing process is stopped. There's a unfinished gate sitting in plain sight. So obviously something is wrong, because you've just admitted that if the ship stopped intentionally then it would still be running.

Ancients said there is only one truth, 'The Universe is infinite', then it stands to reason they would make no such claims as edges to the Universe.

You do realize that quote, used all of once, was used in a riddle?

So, the Ancients knew they were sending the seeder ships and Destiny on a million+ year mission?
Is that what you're claiming?

"This ship was named Destiny for a reason." - Nicholas Rush

If they had a purpose in mind, they had a destination in mind.

Usually does not equate to always.

In other words, you're just not willing to admit you're wrong.

In 'Life' or ever since, everyone refers to the database of planets.
Rush theorizes that is how Destiny got it.

If Rush didn't know anything about regular docking with seed ships, then this would be a reasonable theory.

Just like 'Darkness/Light'.
Rush didn't know that this is how Destiny re-fueled, so the natural theory was that the Gas Giant changed the Destiny course too much and set Destiny on a course to the star, which would destroy Destiny.

You're grasping at straws. Everyone saw the feed. It's there. Indisputably. Stop trying to dismiss it.

[Misfits]

I guess that would mean that, when Destiny gets close to the planet, the gate base will transmit the data to its computers so it'll know what the planets are like, and whether or not it should be locked off?

Well, from Milky Way gate system. we have learned that all gates in the galaxy can be updated from any gate.
We do know that the gates that Seeder ships are seeding are not as advanced, so the would need to be sequence updating.
Once Destiny connects to a gate in a Galaxy, it can just download the updated data of the whole Galaxy.

This point is moot now though, since there is a good chance that the mission is not only about exploration but about reaching a destination; there would be no expanding the mission beyond that if that is the case.

I don't think so. Based on what we already know, there wouldn't be an end.

Yep.

Then, why participate?

[PG15]

I don't think so. Based on what we already know, there wouldn't be an end.

Hmmm.

Let's talk about this again in a few episodes.

Then, why participate?

It kills time.

[LoneStar1836]

I looked at this from the end.
Rush un-docked Destiny. Destiny flew away. Crew still left on Destiny.
From there, based on the facts that we do know, and project what would have happened if some of the variables changed. And who would have gained or lost whatever from those changes.

The main thing would be the power flow from Destiny to the seeder ship.
That is the single thing that made the necessity of Destiny un-docking to the seeder ship.
If the power flow from Destiny to Seeder ship had not happened or went beyond the red level, then Destiny would stay and the power flow from seeder to Destiny would be re-initiated. If this would be the case, the natural conclusion would be that the crew would be able to connect to Earth and go home.
Who would lose with that conclusion? Rush. He no longer would have a crew.

How could Rush grantee a reversal of the reversal if Destiny had been drained?

They had those aliens to deal with. I still don't think Rush would have concocted that particular plan with those aliens hanging around on the ship. Too risky/too many variables, imo.

The simplest thing for me, if Rush wanted to sabotage the gate dial (which I would not doubt he was trying to formulate something to prevent it) would just be to stop the transfer all together and not reverse it (heck never start the thing in the the first place and come up with some bs about why he couldn't get it to work or tamper with the computer and lock it out himself), but that's just my view/interpretation. I agree that it's not 100% clear cut as to who initiated it, but I'm going for the simpler, implied answer because well these are Stargate writers after all....

Now, if you re-watch the sequence of events, with the knowledge that Rush may have been the culprit, then those sequences and events don't look very clear cut as you thought when you first viewed them.

I have no way of rewatching it...being on dial-up.

But after typing all that I looked and they did finally put up a transcript.

YOUNG (over radio): Eli?

WALLACE (into radio): The power transfer's been interrupted. Hang on.

(He hurries over to Lisa's console. Young lowers his radio as the crew in the Gateroom mutter unhappily and anxiously.)

WALLACE (into radio): Rush. Rush, what's happening?

RUSH: I'm not sure, but it appears that tapping this ship's energy reserves seems more problematical than we thought.

(As he lowers his radio, there's a sharp buzzing noise and a bolt of energy hits Dunning in the back. He drops like a stone.)

(In Destiny's Control Interface Room, Eli and Lisa look up anxiously as the lights fritz again. Similar fritzing goes on in the Gateroom.)

WALLACE: Oh-oh.

(He runs back to his own console.)

YOUNG (into radio): Eli, what the hell was that?

WALLACE (into radio): We've got a problem. The energy transfer's been reversed. Doctor Rush, did you hear that? The seed ship has begun drawing power away from Destiny. Doctor Rush!

(Doctor Rush is unconscious on the floor of the seed ship's Control Centre and at least two aliens are now working the consoles. Unaware of this but aware of Nick's silence, Eli radios the Gateroom.)

WALLACE: Colonel Young, we just lost contact with Rush.

After reading that, I think Rush did stop the transfer, but then the little alien dudes came along and zatted him and reversed the transfer.

[Misfits]

The gates are left behind so you don't have to orbit every single planet you want to visit. You can drop out of FTL and be within reach of several gates at once. It's easier than flying a shuttle to every world. Safer, too. If they intended to colonize a galaxy, it would be rather foolish not to do the entire galaxy.

Once the got to the galaxy, then they would gate every planet. Until ten, not necessary.

Unless it has sensors. The seeder stopped along its path.

When you have an FTL drive that needs to run for a minimum of 4 hours, these things need to be scheduled in advance.
The most logical theory would be that Destiny knew where it was and went to it.
Besides, it would be illogical for seeder ships to follow the exact path.
Planets are strewn all over. Seeder ships need to be in orbit orbit of the planet in order to seed it.
If Destiny is too close to the planet, it can't dial the gate on the planet.

But we do know that the ship does explain what Destiny is, what the seeders are, and what their purpose is. This is made very clear in the pilot. There's no denying it. If routine stops were part of the mission statement, it'd have been added.

Actually, we only know what Rush stated. If Rush had access to this type of info, he probably would have found out Destiny's mission a long time ago.

Again, you need to be able to board a ship, automated or not. This is pure common sense. How do you suppose they built it, programmed it, tested it, and so on?

The seeder ships are automated ships, never to meet with Destiny, I would set up a shuttle docking bay, not a Destiny to seeder docking set-up.

And yet the manufacturing process is stopped. There's a unfinished gate sitting in plain sight. So obviously something is wrong, because you've just admitted that if the ship stopped intentionally then it would still be running.

I also said there are products in various stages of being built. Maybe it needs to seed before continuing, who knows, I don't. However to conclude that the seeder ship is broken down is too far of a reach.

You do realize that quote, used all of once, was used in a riddle?

It was used to solve the puzzle. Dr. Jackson said the Ancient proverb says there is only one truth, the Universe is infinite.

Regardless of where it was used or what not, do you agree or disagree with it?

"This ship was named Destiny for a reason." - Nicholas Rush

If they had a purpose in mind, they had a destination in mind.

So you are theorizing. So far, you haven't given any rational reason as to the validity of your theory.

In other words, you're just not willing to admit you're wrong.

If usually was equal to always, then you're right.

You're grasping at straws. Everyone saw the feed. It's there. Indisputably. Stop trying to dismiss it.

Not quite, After Rush said it, everybody refers to the database, not the subspace link.

Just because Rush theorized it once, doesn't make it so. Especially when Rush has been wrong so many times before.

[Misfits]

Hmmm.

Let's talk about this again in a few episodes.

The crux of my point is that if the Destiny had an end, the seeder ships would stop first.
The fact that they don't stop, there would be no end.

It kills time.

And you do such a good job at it. Give yourself a gold medal.

[morbosfist]

Once the got to the galaxy, then they would gate every planet. Until ten, not necessary.

So they'd have to build more seeder ships, send them all the way out, have them seed all those gates, and so on.

When you have an FTL drive that needs to run for a minimum of 4 hours, these things need to be scheduled in advance.
The most logical theory would be that Destiny knew where it was and went to it.
Besides, it would be illogical for seeder ships to follow the exact path.
Planets are strewn all over. Seeder ships need to be in orbit orbit of the planet in order to seed it.
If Destiny is too close to the planet, it can't dial the gate on the planet.

It knew where it was because it has sensors to detect it. Four hours isn't even long enough to get out of gate range. It can detect a ship along its path.

Actually, we only know what Rush stated. If Rush had access to this type of info, he probably would have found out Destiny's mission a long time ago.

Now you're just deliberately dismissing the obvious so you can keep your point. The subspace link is there and they all examine it, period. It isn't something Rush made up. He only faked the planet, which Eli specifies.

The seeder ships are automated ships, never to meet with Destiny, I would set up a shuttle docking bay, not a Destiny to seeder docking set-up.

Then you are a very inefficient designer.

I also said there are products in various stages of being built. Maybe it needs to seed before continuing, who knows, I don't. However to conclude that the seeder ship is broken down is too far of a reach.

None of the systems were online. It stopped in the middle of manufacturing gates. There's no reaching. It's readily apparent. You, on the other hand, claim the ship has stopped of its own accord, yet nothing is online.

It was used to solve the puzzle. Dr. Jackson said the Ancient proverb says there is only one truth, the Universe is infinite.

Regardless of where it was used or what not, do you agree or disagree with it?

I've stated my opinion on the matter already.

So you are theorizing. So far, you haven't given any rational reason as to the validity of your theory.

I have a reason. Word of God, the statement of characters who know for a fact, and the condition of the ship. You've made up every aspect of this idea, and you're simply unwilling to drop it.

Not quite, After Rush said it, everybody refers to the database, not the subspace link.

Just because Rush theorized it once, doesn't make it so. Especially when Rush has been wrong so many times before.

The database comes from the subspace link. Again, you're grasping at straws because it defeats your argument.

[Misfits]

How could Rush grantee a reversal of the reversal if Destiny had been drained?

You wouldn't need power to suck power. You would need to be at the seeder control panel and direct power to Destiny.

They had those aliens to deal with. I still don't think Rush would have concocted that particular plan with those aliens hanging around on the ship. Too risky/too many variables, imo.

The simplest thing for me, if Rush wanted to sabotage the gate dial (which I would not doubt he was trying to formulate something to prevent it) would just be to stop the transfer all together and not reverse it (heck never start the thing in the the first place and come up with some bs about why he couldn't get it to work or tamper with the computer and lock it out himself), but that's just my view/interpretation. I agree that it's not 100% clear cut as to who initiated it, but I'm going for the simpler, implied answer because well these are Stargate writers after all....

It is not clear that Rush knew there were any more Aliens. In fact, until we have more concrete proof, we don't know. We have only seen parts of the overall story.
I am only theorizing. From my point of view, with all that we know about Rush, it's hard to not reach that conclusion.

After reading that, I think Rush did stop the transfer, but then the little alien dudes came along and zatted him and reversed the transfer.

If Rush did stop it, how would he prevent anyone from re-starting it?
That's the key question.
If you believe that Rush doesn't want the crew to go home, then, you would have to reason that Rush needs a permanent way to stop Destiny from accessing the power reserves of the seeder ship.
Then, my theory becomes feasible, doesn't it?

[PG15]

The crux of my point is that if the Destiny had an end, the seeder ships would stop first.
The fact that they don't stop, there would be no end.

Well, they won't stop...until the end.

Like I said, let's wait a few episodes and see what happens.

[Misfits]

So they'd have to build more seeder ships, send them all the way out, have them seed all those gates, and so on.

If they decided to colonize that particular galaxy.

It knew where it was because it has sensors to detect it. Four hours isn't even long enough to get out of gate range. It can detect a ship along its path.

And you got these facts from where?
I never said it took Destiny 4 hours to get to seeder ship, I onlyt said FTL drives have to run for 4 hours minimum.

Now you're just deliberately dismissing the obvious so you can keep your point. The subspace link is there and they all examine it, period. It isn't something Rush made up. He only faked the planet, which Eli specifies.

You keep saying it as a fact. Which is not. Everybody refers to the database, not the subspace link. Is the database there? Yes. Is Subspace link the method used by Destiny to get it, don't know. Is it how Destiny get all the information in the database, don't know.

Then you are a very inefficient designer.

Of course I would be. Just imagine, design a whole ship to ship docking system that will never be used, yeah, I see the efficiency of your point.

None of the systems were online. It stopped in the middle of manufacturing gates. There's no reaching. It's readily apparent. You, on the other hand, claim the ship has stopped of its own accord, yet nothing is online.

It's an automated ship. Why would any console be online or active?
Lights were on. fine. It's an automated process, there hasn't been anyone around for million+ years. I would expect nothing to be on.

I've stated my opinion on the matter already.

Good answer, very clever of you. I like the way you sidestepped it.

I have a reason. Word of God, the statement of characters who know for a fact, and the condition of the ship. You've made up every aspect of this idea, and you're simply unwilling to drop it.

The database comes from the subspace link. Again, you're grasping at straws because it defeats your argument.

I'm unwilling to drop anything that you haven't rationally argued for.
Just because you say it is, doesn't make it so.