'Awakening' (203) General Discussion

[ciannwn]

[ anyone else find it interesting that Rush just brushed off the incredible find of the gate factory, with all it's swelling music and everything, and just merrily skipped over the 'transported' bit?

There was music playing in the gate factory? Maybe Rush didn't like it.

[Fawaz Azim]

Loved this episode. So far season 2 is shaping up pretty well. I think the writers finally understood that the show can be different while still retaining elements from SG1 and SGA. Being a long time Stargate fan it was really cool getting to see the gate manufacture section of the ship. Really wish they showed more of it.

I guess we should get used to seeing support characters being knocked off. Its a pity about Telford. Just when I started liking him, but he will be back. I'm quite certain the alien creatures aren't violent and are simply doing what they have to in order to survive. For all they know the presence of the destiny crew on their ship may have seemed like an attack or sabotage of some sort. Loved the scene where Scott gives food to the alien. Reminded me of Daniel sharing food with Kasuf, or even Daniel and Chakka is season four of SG1

[Misfits]

Yep. If you'll remember, Rush was having issues due to memories of torture robbing him of sleep. If you wanna believe Gloria/Franklin, they pointed this out; he was severely stressed and thus missing things. It was a whole big plot point. So yes, I do expect a decently-rested Volker to easily catch this... unless he's an idiot. If it had been me, I'd certainly be looking for planetary conditions before going down there.

I guess if you want to be maniacal in defending Rush, you can find something, or twist something. You're doing such a good job. Please continue.

Pick a number, then. =) For me, considering Destiny allowed them to go to the Ice planet, with it's poisonous atmosphere, poisonous ice, quakes that can break the ice and swallow you up at anytime, and deadly organisms in the water... well, it doesn't get much worse than that. I suppose you could add some chest-burrowing aliens adapted for an ice climate, though. Perhaps you don't agree, but if Destiny allows them to go to that planet, I can't imagine locked-out worlds being much worse.

You do realize that this is the first time Destiny stopped, intentionally, where the planet was only reachable by shuttle, right?

Regardless of the danger that may or may not exist on any planet, the crew was able to safely get on the planet. What happens afterwards is up to the crew.

It was a fact because all the other scientists saw the database of planets the seeder ships send back.

Actually, everybody has been able to access the database. Nobody, except Rush, has theorized how Destiny got the data.

The whole point to the question was to compare him to Young, who made bad decisions regarding the LA, something I was arguing military personnel shouldn't do. But it's fine if you can't find anything where Jack's emotional decisions put the people under his command at life-threatening risk. Didn't think you could, anyway.

Ok. since you have better defined your question, remember 'The Other Side'. SG-1, Season 4, Episode 2? This was the planet with more advanced technology that could have been very helpful for entire Earth. Jack was under direct orders to obtain the technology. He chose to ignore those orders.

Irrelevant. We're talking about the actual planetary data that everyone had access to, because this whole point was that Eli, Park, Brody, and Volker are just as guilty as Rush. If you still want to blame Rush, that is. You're about the only one left who is arguing that, though.

Very relevant, in fact crucial. By claiming that Destiny stopped, Rush was giving, the stop, Destiny's seal of approval. In fact, the actual situation is completely the opposite. Destiny concluded that it was unsafe, Rush chose to over rule that conclusion. Rush had no authority to make this decision. The constant theme of this show. Rush decides, without proper authority, everybody, left alive, deal with the consequences.

Yes, but that doesn't relate to what happened aboard Destiny. Like I explained, that's conspiracy to commit murder. The whole point this revolves around is the issue of choice and personal responsibility. Did Young have a choice, or was he coerced in any way? Since Young did have a choice, the responsibility primarily lies with him. I can offer you as many cookies as I like. But if you take one and choke on it, that's your fault. All I did was give you the option; just like Rush did.

Yes, I agree the issue is choice and the responsibility of that choice.
The only person making the choice is Rush. Rush chooses to dial the 9th chevron address, Rush chooses to stop Destiny.

So you do recognize that, legally speaking, Rush holds no blame then. Good, thanks! (By the way, this particular law is adapted to numerous countries, and the military personnel aboard Destiny are US personnel).

Under military command. Where did Rush get the authority to make the decision to stop Destiny.

Ah, the timless tactic of not actually answering the point, but engaging in an ad hominen affair. I find those that resort to such tactics, have realized they have run out of rationalizations, and thus drop to insults. An apology would be in order, as I believe we promised to keep this clean.

I am only returning the favor.

Never said that. Did you somehow miss the dozens of times I said I held blame for Rush's actions? Do I need to repeat it?

Ok, so we are in agreement that Rush is at fault, call the newspapers... We finally have a break through.

Right then, you're done. That's #2 for ad hominem attacks. If you can't maintain a civil debate, then there is no point to you being here and trying to engage in one. If you can't express your opinions without name-calling, then you admit you have no foundation to your arguments. It's the equivalent of going, "Well... well... you're a... BIG MEANY HEAD!" It shows us you've run out of justifications, and makes your side look really bad.

I specifically said I never accused you of being one. You twisted that to mean what you want it to mean.

If you have run out of ways to defend Rush's actions, then just say so.

[Misfits]

That still necessitates taking a million+ years to fly back through every galaxy to retrieve all that data when Destiny clearly has a record of its entire course. There's a real-time subspace link between the seed ships and Destiny, rendering any hard-line transfer wholly unnecessary.

Which part of 'dial the gate in the galaxy to get a data dump' did you not understand?

Which has no basis in the show.

If this show has shown anything, is that common sense rules.

Do you think before complaining? It isn't that hard to grasp. You know how Destiny is going to travel through any given galaxy, you know the average number of planets there will be from one end to the other, and you could even reasonably guess at how many galaxies it will run over from now to the end of time. With that in mind, it would be trivially to design a system with enough data storage that you could record several times the predicted amount of data.

Do you even grasp what you're claiming? You're saying that you can quantify Infinity.
You can't predict such a number.

Let me give you an example, you know the birth rate of human beings on earth, you know how it has progressed the past few thousand years.
Can you determine how many humans will be born till the end of time?

No matter the actual value of any variable in the equation, once you include infinity into the equation, you get infinity.

[Misfits]

anyone else find it interesting that Rush just brushed off the incredible find of the gate factory, with all it's swelling music and everything, and just merrily skipped over the 'transported' bit?

Rush would probably ignore anything he, himself. didn't discover.

[PG15]

Which part of 'dial the gate in the galaxy to get a data dump' did you not understand?



If this show has shown anything, is that common sense rules.



Do you even grasp what you're claiming? You're saying that you can quantify Infinity.
You can't predict such a number.

Let me give you an example, you know the birth rate of human beings on earth, you know how it has progressed the past few thousand years.
Can you determine how many humans will be born till the end of time?

No matter the actual value of any variable in the equation, once you include infinity into the equation, you get infinity.

But what if Destiny isn't travelling until the end of time? What if there's a destination? Then the data wouldn't be infinite, would it?

[morbosfist]

Which part of 'dial the gate in the galaxy to get a data dump' did you not understand?

These Stargates aren't like the ones in the Milky Way. There's no indication they even work when Destiny's not in the neighborhood. Even if they did, again, where is all that data going to be stored? Can't go on the ship.

If this show has shown anything, is that common sense rules.

Which do not include your proposed concepts. "Common sense" isn't a catch-all blanket. There's no indication the seeders have ever stopped before, no proof that they ever will again, and no evidence that the system is doing anything but downloading even more raw data which the seeder probably couldn't transmit because it was dead in space.

Do you even grasp what you're claiming? You're saying that you can quantify Infinity.
You can't predict such a number.

Let me give you an example, you know the birth rate of human beings on earth, you know how it has progressed the past few thousand years.
Can you determine how many humans will be born till the end of time?

No matter the actual value of any variable in the equation, once you include infinity into the equation, you get infinity.

The universe is infinite, the matter in it is not. Galaxies would have coalesced even when Destiny was launched. Eventually Destiny will pass the edge. The Ancients, advanced as they were even back then the amount of necessary storage space for a universe crossing journey.

[LoneStar1836]

Well, let's see. Presumably they have a device that can stun a human. I would think that would mean an ability to protect yourself from aggression. So the rational reasoning would be that they would stay.
The main point is, if you initiated the transfer of energy, wouldn't you stay at the console to finish the job? That would be the logical thing to do.

If the power flow had just stayed had stayed neutral, there would be no need to separate the ships. In fact, the most likely scenario would be that they would stay and try to figure out how to re-initiated the power flow to Destiny.
Rather, reversing the power flow, and the inability to stop it, would be ONLY scenario to force a separation of the ships.

If Eli was at the seeder ship control room, we wouldn't even be discussing this possibility.

Just because they can protect themselves doesn't mean they're willing to start a fight. They must know, or at least assume, that there are more people on Destiny, carrying what are obviously weapons. There's only a dozen of them at most. Not good odds.

They didn't stay because they didn't have to. The transfer was in progress and they couldn't stick around when the other crew would be sending backup.

Also note that the entire ship was being locked down on the way out, and this was before Rush woke up. They were obviously trying to even the odds by preventing anyone from coming back to stop them.

This.

The Aliens locking down the ship behind retreating Destiny crew makes perfect sense. However, if that was the case, the more likely that they would stay in the control room. You would want to prevent anyone from undoing the changes you made. In the end, it makes more rational sense that you would leave a detail behind.

If they stay they get shot. There are still people on the ship with guns. Once they knew they had evened the odds they came out again.

And this.

Great replies there, morbo.



I'm not saying that there is not a remote possibility that Rush reversed the power flow, but I find it highly unlikely that he did. IMO, he has absolutely nothing to gain by reversing it. Stopping it yes and then coming up with some bs about not knowing why it had stopped to buy him some time. Supposedly Destiny was going to undock from the seeder once the download of info was complete, or that was the impression that I got, which was why this had to be done now because this was the only chance before Destiny jumped away.

He reverses it, then what?

He would have had to suspiciously left the seeder and gotten to the bridge on Destiny to have undocked the ships in order to then stop the transfer. Some one would then radio that Rush was headed back to Destiny. Young would yell over the radio demanding to know why. Then when Rush doesn't show up in the control room on Destiny, Young gets a lot more suspicious as I don't think bathroom break and a snack is going to cut it this time when Destiny is reaching critical power levels.

Rush does not want anyone knowing about the bridge. Reversing the power rather than stopping it seems to be like a huge pain in the ass in trying to hide the fact that he is controlling Destiny via the bridge. (I think he pretty much gave himself away at the end of this ep anyway when he did just that in order to save Destiny. If they don't figure out what he's doing in the next episode and especially the one after that, then these people on Destiny really are the wrong people and complete idiots to boot.)


I just find this way more complicated than it has to be....when Rush could have just stalled the transfer for however long was needed for the download of info to take place and then everyone has to rush back to Destiny before it undocks and jumps.

That's why I firmly believe the aliens did it to save themselves.

What I find kind of amusing about this episode is that we're (apparently) supposed to be upset that these aliens prevented the crew from dialing and going home. Except....these critters live there, so really we would've been siphoning their gas and leaving them in the wilderness. Rock on, Destiny crew. First you abandon POWs to die on some godforsaken rock on the far side of the universe, then you try to jack some aliens' ride

I'm not. I liked that the aliens took back what was theirs plus some.

[Misfits]

But what if Destiny isn't travelling until the end of time? What if there's a destination? Then the data wouldn't be infinite, would it?

The Ancients were supposed to come to Destiny thousands of years ago, so said Rush.
What they planed to do, and what they did are very different.

Yet, if you were going to build this project, you would have to consider several things.
If you have a finite destination, then, yes, you could calculate what you would need.

For example, the ip address in internet, 4 sets of 3 digit numbers, about a trillion. when Internet was first set up, nobody figured we would ever get close to that number.
As far as I know. we're already running out.
If we add another set of 3 digits, there's no guarantee that we won't reach the limit.

In hindsight, the limit should never have been defined.

If you set a limit, eventually you will reach it, if not now, maybe in a decade, in a century, in a millenia, etc...

If you look at a project like this, you would have to consider the fact that you're dealing with the Universe, which is infinite.

In view of this fact, to design a system that has limits would be inane.

Once you accept the fact that there should be no limits, you would have to design a system that could be ever expanding.

As such, a modular system would make the best sense, wouldn't it?

[morbosfist]

Once you accept the fact that there should be no limits, you would have to design a system that could be ever expanding.

As such, a modular system would make the best sense, wouldn't it?

You're still acting like they have limited data storage, when no Ancient vessel at any time has ever made an issue of it. Their computing ability no doubt dwarfs our own, so to assume that they would design a ship to travel across the universe and not build it with an unfathomable amount of storage space is absurd.

Again, the ship is getting a real-time data feed from the seed ships. All that data from galaxies well beyond them is being stored somewhere. Don't you think they'd have noticed if Destiny suddenly uploaded a ton of data off-site?

[Misfits]

These Stargates aren't like the ones in the Milky Way. There's no indication they even work when Destiny's not in the neighborhood. Even if they did, again, where is all that data going to be stored? Can't go on the ship.

If you actually read my theory, I said dial from Earth.
Additionally, it is a given that all the gates that are placed by the seeder ships are identical to the one found in Destiny.

The later models are found in Milky way, and even later models in Pegasus.
However they would all work under the same theory and application.
In another words, you can connect from any gate to any other gate if you have enough power and the right address.
Otherwise how could Destiny ever be able to connect back to Earth?

Which do not include your proposed concepts. "Common sense" isn't a catch-all blanket. There's no indication the seeders have ever stopped before, no proof that they ever will again, and no evidence that the system is doing anything but downloading even more raw data which the seeder probably couldn't transmit because it was dead in space.

Seeder ship had power and being dead in space wouldn't prevent it from transmitting.

I never said there was proof. I said common sense would rule.

Let's look at the facts that we do know.
Destiny docked with a seeder ship, it's transferring data. If Destiny was not meant to catch up with any seeder ship, why have docking procedure, port, or even have data transfer?

With subspace transmission, there would be no need to transfer data while docked.
Just think about it, you have a main desktop in your house, and many laptops, and a router set up.
If you can send any file from one device to another wirelessly, why would you EVER hardwire a connection between the desktop and the laptop?

Additionally, if this is a one time event, then the seeder ship would be transferring what it has collected over million+ years. And this process is going to take 2 hours?

Common sense and rational reasoning would be that this is not a one-time event. Rather a recurring event. Once you look at the events from a recurring event viewpoint, then, my proposed theory is not that far off.

The universe is infinite, the matter in it is not. Galaxies would have coalesced even when Destiny was launched. Eventually Destiny will pass the edge. The Ancients, advanced as they were even back then the amount of necessary storage space for a universe crossing journey.

And you know where the edge of Universe starts and ends?
And you know how much matter there actually exists in the Universe?
You're theorizing your position and you don't have any proof of any of this.
The fact is we don't know these details or how certain things work.

We only thing we know is that the Universe is infinite.
As advanced as Ancients were, the only truth they abided by was 'The Universe is infinite'.

[morbosfist]

You do realize at this point your theory has already been disproven?

If you actually read my theory, I said dial from Earth.
Additionally, it is a given that all the gates that are placed by the seeder ships are identical to the one found in Destiny.

The later models are found in Milky way, and even later models in Pegasus.
However they would all work under the same theory and application.
In another words, you can connect from any gate to any other gate if you have enough power and the right address.
Otherwise how could Destiny ever be able to connect back to Earth?

As has been pointed out elsewhere, the further you get from Earth, the less likely it is that total available eight symbol gate addresses (sensible ones) could be used to target gates outside the galaxy. More to the point, it would be ridiculous to design a system that forced you to go back along the areas you already explored when the whole point was to reach Destiny after it had done a bunch of exploring on its own.

Seeder ship had power and being dead in space wouldn't prevent it from transmitting.

Having power and being active are two separate things.

I never said there was proof. I said common sense would rule.

Common sense dictates that the most logical answer is the best one. This is hardly the most logical answer.

Let's look at the facts that we do know.
Destiny docked with a seeder ship, it's transferring data. If Destiny was not meant to catch up with any seeder ship, why have docking procedure, port, or even have data transfer?

With subspace transmission, there would be no need to transfer data while docked.
Just think about it, you have a main desktop in your house, and many laptops, and a router set up.
If you can send any file from one device to another wirelessly, why would you EVER hardwire a connection between the desktop and the laptop?

Additionally, if this is a one time event, then the seeder ship would be transferring what it has collected over million+ years. And this process is going to take 2 hours?

Common sense and rational reasoning would be that this is not a one-time event. Rather a recurring event. Once you look at the events from a recurring event viewpoint, then, my proposed theory is not that far off.

But we know it's not a recurring event, because the characters know this isn't supposed to happen. They found the logs of how the project worked. Why be surprised? Surely this feature would have been explained.

Why have a docking port? In case you need to board it. Why have data transmission? To download information in case the primary relay is offline, or to download information too sensitive to be transmitted over subspace. Why does it take only two hours? Because the Ancients were awesome and could design computers that transfer data at unimaginable speeds.

Common sense dictates that the simplest answer is correct. If this is intentional, why is the ship almost totally offline? Why is the gate factory stopped in the middle of building a gate. Why does it have an entire supply of gates just sitting there? Because something went wrong, and it stopped.

And you know where the edge of Universe starts and ends?
And you know how much matter there actually exists in the Universe?
You're theorizing your position and you don't have any proof of any of this.
The fact is we don't know these details or how certain things work.

We only thing we know is that the Universe is infinite.
As advanced as Ancients were, the only truth they abided by was 'The Universe is infinite'.

We don't, the Ancients would. They're more advanced, and may very well have been capable of determining which direction to go. The only thing we know is that Destiny has gone as long as it has and is still going, with no sign that data storage is or ever will be an issue.

[Misfits]

I'm not saying that there is not a remote possibility that Rush reversed the power flow, but I find it highly unlikely that he did. IMO, he has absolutely nothing to gain by reversing it. Stopping it yes and then coming up with some bs about not knowing why it had stopped to buy him some time. Supposedly Destiny was going to undock from the seeder once the download of info was complete, or that was the impression that I got, which was why this had to be done now because this was the only chance before Destiny umped away.

I looked at this from the end.
Rush un-docked Destiny. Destiny flew away. Crew still left on Destiny.
From there, based on the facts that we do know, and project what would have happened if some of the variables changed. And who would have gained or lost whatever from those changes.

The main thing would be the power flow from Destiny to the seeder ship.
That is the single thing that made the necessity of Destiny un-docking to the seeder ship.
If the power flow from Destiny to Seeder ship had not happened or went beyond the red level, then Destiny would stay and the power flow from seeder to Destiny would be re-initiated. If this would be the case, the natural conclusion would be that the crew would be able to connect to Earth and go home.
Who would lose with that conclusion? Rush. He no longer would have a crew.

Now, if you re-watch the sequence of events, with the knowledge that Rush may have been the culprit, then those sequences and events don't look very clear cut as you thought when you first viewed them.

[Misfits]

You're still acting like they have limited data storage, when no Ancient vessel at any time has ever made an issue of it. Their computing ability no doubt dwarfs our own, so to assume that they would design a ship to travel across the universe and not build it with an unfathomable amount of storage space is absurd.

My point is that if you're going set Destiny on the Universe, ANY limit set would be stupid, no matter how advanced they are.

Again, the ship is getting a real-time data feed from the seed ships. All that data from galaxies well beyond them is being stored somewhere. Don't you think they'd have noticed if Destiny suddenly uploaded a ton of data off-site?

Let's look at your point.
If Destiny is getting a real-time feed from seed ships, why would the seed ship dock and transfer data?
Rush said he had been able to access the sub space link. the he refers to the database of the planets in it.
Everybody else has only referred to the database, not the subspace link.
It is entirely possible Rush is wrong again.

[PG15]

The Ancients were supposed to come to Destiny thousands of years ago, so said Rush.
What they planed to do, and what they did are very different.

Yet, if you were going to build this project, you would have to consider several things.
If you have a finite destination, then, yes, you could calculate what you would need.

For example, the ip address in internet, 4 sets of 3 digit numbers, about a trillion. when Internet was first set up, nobody figured we would ever get close to that number.
As far as I know. we're already running out.
If we add another set of 3 digits, there's no guarantee that we won't reach the limit.

In hindsight, the limit should never have been defined.

If you set a limit, eventually you will reach it, if not now, maybe in a decade, in a century, in a millenia, etc...

If you look at a project like this, you would have to consider the fact that you're dealing with the Universe, which is infinite.

In view of this fact, to design a system that has limits would be inane.

Once you accept the fact that there should be no limits, you would have to design a system that could be ever expanding.

As such, a modular system would make the best sense, wouldn't it?

I missed that part of your theory, actually. Can you link me to your post where you detailed it (or if you don't mind, detailing it again)? I don't remember you mentioning modules and such.

However, a limit is not inane if the Ancient knew they were only going to collect so much. The details of the mission is vague at best and we don't really know why they're out there collecting data or how much they're collecting. The analogy with the Internet is flawed; the "mission" of the Internet is to cater to as many people as possible and that in itself is a vague enough mission that any planning at the start would be obsolete eventually. Destiny could be different; its mission could be very well planned and the storage space allocated accordingly.

Really, we don't have enough information about Destiny to say much about this point, IMHO.