'Awakening' (203) General Discussion

[morbosfist]

Well, let's see. Presumably they have a device that can stun a human. I would think that would mean an ability to protect yourself from aggression. So the rational reasoning would be that they would stay.
The main point is, if you initiated the transfer of energy, wouldn't you stay at the console to finish the job? That would be the logical thing to do.

If the power flow had just stayed had stayed neutral, there would be no need to separate the ships. In fact, the most likely scenario would be that they would stay and try to figure out how to re-initiated the power flow to Destiny.
Rather, reversing the power flow, and the inability to stop it, would be ONLY scenario to force a separation of the ships.

If Eli was at the seeder ship control room, we wouldn't even be discussing this possibility.

Just because they can protect themselves doesn't mean they're willing to start a fight. They must know, or at least assume, that there are more people on Destiny, carrying what are obviously weapons. There's only a dozen of them at most. Not good odds.

They didn't stay because they didn't have to. The transfer was in progress and they couldn't stick around when the other crew would be sending backup.

Also note that the entire ship was being locked down on the way out, and this was before Rush woke up. They were obviously trying to even the odds by preventing anyone from coming back to stop them.

[Misfits]

Good thing there are multiple people who could take a look at the data, like Eli, Park, Brody, and Volker. But shame on them for killing Riley. They should have told Young about the conditions on the planet!

You making the assumption that they had access to the same data as Rush.
Let me give you an example.
In the airport terminal, you have computer terminals all over the place.
Does each terminal at the boarding gate have the information that would be available in the control tower or the Airlines' flight booking center?

No evidence for this. In fact, the evidence goes AGAINST this, since they clearly have detailed analysis of planets coming up in the database (the whole reason they were able to believe the Icarus planet), AND they were clearly able to read the conditions of the Faith planet enough to determine it was safe to land. Given those two things, why wouldn't everyone else have access to the information about the Aftermath planet? You have to get past that bit first, otherwise you have to blame the other scientists for missing the data as well.

You do have a valid point, however you can't include Eli or Volker in the blame game. There were on the shuttle. So, they would had, what minutes to look before they got ready for the mission? And there have been ample instances to show that Eli was the only one able keep up with Rush.

So, you're left with Park and Brody. Brody seems more like a handyman who's learning the ancient system and Park is definitively not nearly as capable.

No. Merely that you can't entirely depend on them. It's led us to dangerous planets before, and humans aren't stupid; they can handle things sometimes that Destiny might not think they can. And really, I think you're placing far too much emphasis on Destiny's supposed Aritificial Intelligence, when we've had no real indication that it has one. At best, it has a complex set of protocols based on predetermined criteria.

Of course you shouldn't rely entirely on it, however, the planet being locked out and a big, red X would give you reasons to closely examine the conditions before taking action, wouldn't it?

Rush has access to the database of planets. He said they needed supplies NOW. If there was a better planet out there, it is logical to assume that Rush would have waited for the better planet.

Again, where does Rush get the authority to make that decision?

You didn't know that Scott would survive (other than plot armor). The same conditions existed for both Riley and Scott; both were put in danger if dying, and it was only luck that Scott survived (a quake happened that freed him up).

Actually everyone in the Shuttle were in extreme danger. They were many factors that lucked out just right that led to only 1 death.

It is VERY relevant, because you are trying to blame Rush, and solely Rush for this. You simply can't, because everyone else had the exact same data available to them! Your only two choices are to blame everyone, or blame no one and say it was bad luck; there is no middle ground here. I, and many others here, have at least come to the understanding that we pretty much can't blame everyone.

Actually, it's irrelevant, because nobody else except Rush made the decision to stop Destiny without authority.

Generally speaking, the vast majority of their decisions were rationally based, or geared to the protection of the people under their command. Not saying they were perfect, but they were vastly superior to Young when it comes to such things.

Regardless, they were authorized to make that decision.
Again, where did Rush get the authorization from? Who authorized Rush to make that decision?

Yes, humans can generally be made quite terrified of the unknown; like when you don't really know what could possibly be under your bed. Considering we don't know what is out there, we probably should have never stepped through the gate the first time, eh? After all, it was an unknown quantity, and that was a bad thing.

Jack also wasn't serving after his child died. If we take the movie as canon, the only reason he came back was because he was essentially offered a suicide mission. If Young were the same, he would have stepped down, but he's hellbent on keeping his position. So yes, Jack was better in this regard.

Not really. there is a major difference. If Jack didn't accept the mission in the original movie, someone else would have been selected.
If Young steps down, you're left with inept Wray, as we already saw in 'Justice'.

In the context of this discussion, we're only talking about Young. Well, the conversation mostly was about Rush and people trying to solely blame him for a man's death, when the reality is that Young is more to blame, especially considering his breakdown. Also, TPTB were treating other SG teams and personnel pretty much like red shirts for most of its run.

The reason we're blaming Rush is because Rush is sorely responsible.

I'll will end this post with one challenge: For Jack and Sam, name me some instances where their "out-of-control emotional actions" put the entirety of their team, or Earth, or the people under their protection at risk. Pretty much like Young did with the LA, in other words. These would be actions that would have contradicted what their military training should have told them to do.

You mean like when Jack, Carter and Daniel were using that alien device on their forearms, went to the planet and to the Goauld mothership, got trapped and Jack wouldn't leave?

I'll give you this challenge.

If you were the boss of a division in a trading firm, and there were sub-groups that specializes in different areas, you would naturally, select people to be in charge of those sub-groups.
If an analyst in one of those sub-groups made the decision to act without the approval of the one you put in charge of that group, and it turned out horribly wrong, what would you do?

[PG15]

Generally speaking, the vast majority of their decisions were rationally based, or geared to the protection of the people under their command. Not saying they were perfect, but they were vastly superior to Young when it comes to such things.

Not surprisingly, as they were supposedly the best of the best; and even then they weren't perfect.

Young is not one of the best of the best, so it's only natural that he'd be inferior.

As much caution as possible. I mean, technically speaking, it was just two people and already one had been taken over. There is only so much you can do to be cautious, and at some point you have to reach out and take a risk. They got burned that time, but that's the risk.

True, there is only so much you can do to be cautious, but they could've done so much more in this case, like, I don't know...not allowing the head of the city and the head of the military in the city to be near an unknown alien object.

Yes, humans can generally be made quite terrified of the unknown; like when you don't really know what could possibly be under your bed. Considering we don't know what is out there, we probably should have never stepped through the gate the first time, eh?

That would be the cautious way to go about it, yes.

Of course, the first time the gate was used was for destroying whatever dangers was on the other side, not just for exploration or curiosity, so the point is moot.

Familiar with the phrase "borrowed time"? If you would have been dead anyway, and someone extends your life, do you turn around and go "You saved my life, but you're a bad person for putting my extended life at risk!" Seems kinda... I dunno, ungrateful to me.

I remember when SG1 was cancelled, and people were crying foul and hating on Scifi. Well, Scifi saved SG1 from cancellation 5 years previously, so how does that work?

That said, I do kinda see your point. However, that's arguing from the POV of the crew. Do the same arguments apply to us viewers on the outside? Though Rush did save the crew, what he did in the next two episodes was still selfish and risky to an extent; just because he did something good earlier doesn't erase his deeds now.

Not personally, but my dad served in Vietnam. He'd tell us stories of boot camp, training, and life in a warzone all the time (had a grandpa that served in WW2, but he's been dead for many years now). The military doesn't want independent thinkers; they won't drones. People who follow orders without question, and yes, they will beat that into you from day 1. They say jump, you jump. There are very clear rules and regulations you follow, and for examples sake, Young followed that in the first episode, when he shut down the 9th chevron attempt: "My first priority is to the safety of this base and everyone in it." That's military protocol; that's what he should be doing. That's what he should have been thinking when the LA came through the gate. That's what they are trained for in the regular military, and there is additional training to deal with life in the great, scary unknowns of space.

Fascinating.

Though, I wonder what a military contingent would do if they were left alone in a completely alien environment for almost a year. So far, the chain of command on Destiny is still respected for the most part (Scott's kinda wavering a bit, it seems), even if Young's decisions have been questionable at times.

Really? ok , lets look at what we do know.
Rush ans Eli said many times that Destiny follows a corridor of gates.
Can we agree on that?
Additionally, when Rush goes to look for Scott, Greer, Eli and Cloe, he says in amazement, who would have thought Destiny skipped so many gates?

The only conclusion that you can get out of these facts is that Destiny follows a corridor peppered with gated planets. Can we agree so far?

Then, from the time Rush goes into the bridge, we hear Rush noticing how there are no gated planets around. So, the implication is that Destiny is not on it's normal course. because, if it were, there would be a lot of gated planets around.

Now from the time Rush stops the Destiny at the planet in 'Aftermath', Destiny goes into FTL for a total of 6 hours before it reaches the seeder ship.

The rational conclusion has to be that Destiny got notified that a seeder ship was nearby and wanted to dock-and-transfer-data, and that's the reason why Destiny was traveling in an area where there were no gated planets.

Do you think I'm over-reaching?

That is one interpretation. I disagree though. I think the Destiny merely follows the seedships, and when this seedship broke down, it stopped producing gates. Thus, even though Destiny is doing what it usually does (following the seedships, it doesn't encounter any gates as this one was broken.

I'm starting to think something else is going on between Young and Rush. Oh, they're not going to go all BFF any time soon but I think Young scuttled the plan in the incursion to save Rush. I think the last thing Rush wanted Young to do in Sabotage was sit in that chair - to keep him alive or to keep him from power, I don';t know. I have a sneaking suspicion that he stranded Telford for Young. Either because he thinks Young is easier to deal with or, as I'm starting to suspect, there is some sort of whacky respect going on there. And yes, he needs a crew, of course, but these guys have been pitted against each other for a while and part of having an enemy is getting to know them pretty well. I think that's what's happening

?

[Kaiphantom]

We're dealing with a couple of different situations, and for the sake of brevity, I'll try to reply to the sections that i believe are summarizing your points:

You do have a valid point, however you can't include Eli or Volker in the blame game. There were on the shuttle. So, they would had, what minutes to look before they got ready for the mission? And there have been ample instances to show that Eli was the only one able keep up with Rush.

The first being the issue of the other scientists. Firstly, I would say Eli and Volker can be included, because they had time to check out the planet before going. I can't imagine the process being anymore difficult that punching up the sensors, scanning the planet, and getting some readings. Or accessing the readings from the database of planets. If you have evidence of it being harder, I would love to see it. As far as time, Young could have delayed a bit to give them time to look up info on the planet. It would seem a prudent move for a leader to order his people, to find out if there are any dangers on this planet that he's thinking of dispatching a team to.

Of course you shouldn't rely entirely on it, however, the planet being locked out and a big, red X would give you reasons to closely examine the conditions before taking action, wouldn't it?

It wasn't locked out. It was just listed as nonfunctional, which if we extend by logic, it was referring to the gate being nonfunctional.

Again, where does Rush get the authority to make that decision?

The other main issue you are pushing, is of authority. I admit, I am curious as to why, because I really don't think we're in disagreement here. I'd agree with you that Rush had no authority to make the decisions he is making, such as hiding the bridge and stopping the ship. If, somehow you think I am blindly defending him as all that is good, then that would be incorrect. Perhaps if you could explain where you are going with this line of thought...?

Not really. there is a major difference. If Jack didn't accept the mission in the original movie, someone else would have been selected.
If Young steps down, you're left with inept Wray, as we already saw in 'Justice'.

This is kinda a bit off the main points being discussed, because Wray isn't military and what I was discussing was the military's training to be able to handle situations.

You mean like when Jack, Carter and Daniel were using that alien device on their forearms, went to the planet and to the Goauld mothership, got trapped and Jack wouldn't leave?

They were under the influence of alien devices, so not quite applicable.

I'll give you this challenge.

If you were the boss of a division in a trading firm, and there were sub-groups that specializes in different areas, you would naturally, select people to be in charge of those sub-groups.
If an analyst in one of those sub-groups made the decision to act without the approval of the one you put in charge of that group, and it turned out horribly wrong, what would you do?

Not quite applicable to the situation. It would be more accurate to say that sub-person made a decision without approval to open up an option, but if I then took that option and it turned out badly, it would be my responsibility.

In the real world, this is used in law enforcement. If the FBI determine someone might commit a crime such as hiring someone to kill someone else, they might provide an undercover operative to pretend to be a killer. So when the deal is made and money changes hands, they can arrest the person for conspiracy to commit murder. There are very strict guidelines in play governing what the FBI can and cannot do. They can only provide the option; if the person chooses to take it, then they can be arrested.

However, there is a principle known as "Entrapment." If the FBI overstep their bounds in setting the person up, however, then one can claim the entrapment defense, that the FBI set them up. In short, law has recognized that there is a distinct legally culpable difference between setting up an option, and forcing someone to take the option. As long as they only set it up, and don't force them to take it, then all legal culpability is with the person who made the choice to take the option.

So, legally, Young is responsible for what happened. That is what a US court would determine. Heh, I had a very interesting real world application of this lesson not too long ago, participating in a discussion of a court case regarding entrapment, and all the legal principles involved.

Not surprisingly, as they were supposedly the best of the best; and even then they weren't perfect. Young is not one of the best of the best, so it's only natural that he'd be inferior.

I won't say too much more to this point, because I think we essentially agree on things. I do see Young as an inferior commander; he's not "like Jack O'Neill from 10 years ago" as the initial blurb wanted us to believe. I can understand his breakdown, and it's part of why I argue it's time to step down as a leader, and at least give others a chance.

But it's also because Jack and Sam were in an idealistic universe; thus their actions were "safer" because everything could turn out okay. That's why they had to specifically do "Heroes" and kill Janet, to reintroduce the concept of danger. Young and crew are in a cynical universe, which makes Young trying to be Jack so much worse; he's trying to save everyone and failing, because you can't save everyone.

True, there is only so much you can do to be cautious, but they could've done so much more in this case, like, I don't know...not allowing the head of the city and the head of the military in the city to be near an unknown alien object.

Part of the issue is that Atlantis is an idealistic universe, too. So, to an extent, people can be dumber and still get survive. It's important to note that Wray was taken over first and she was a civilian, not military. Arguably stupid of her, though. As commanding officer, Sheppard volunteered to take the other alien into himself; understandable if you take the view that the commander won't order someone to do what he isn't willing himself. If it was dangerous, he would only be risking himself. Again, making a rational choice to protect the people under his command; just like Young tried to make a choice to be the one to close the shuttle door (but was stopped by Scott).

I remember when SG1 was cancelled, and people were crying foul and hating on Scifi. Well, Scifi saved SG1 from cancellation 5 years previously, so how does that work?

That said, I do kinda see your point. However, that's arguing from the POV of the crew. Do the same arguments apply to us viewers on the outside? Though Rush did save the crew, what he did in the next two episodes was still selfish and risky to an extent; just because he did something good earlier doesn't erase his deeds now.

Oh, I'm not excusing Rush's behavior. If you want me to, I'll restate exactly what I feel his problems are, and the douchy moves he's taken, heh. But I'll cut him some slack for stopping the ship, just like I'll cut Young some slack for some of the good earlier decisions he's made.

Fascinating.

Though, I wonder what a military contingent would do if they were left alone in a completely alien environment for almost a year. So far, the chain of command on Destiny is still respected for the most part (Scott's kinda wavering a bit, it seems), even if Young's decisions have been questionable at times.

Yeah, I'm really interested to see how far they let Young go, before Scott and Greer really stand up to him. Or whether Young will recover on his own. Already, they were confronted with the whole Telford Death thing, so it has to be on their minds, but so far the chain of command is intact. I can understand why, because that is something heavily drilled into people, especially for circumstances like in Air, when they found themselves on the ship. Scott was able to take command and establish order; that's exactly the reason for it. Stuff like following the chain of command is drilled into them from day one.

[Misfits]

You really need to read fully before typing. Rush didn't know where the ship was heading, so how can you blame him for things he didn't know? Anyway, the whole reason I was bringing blame onto Young, was just to illustrate how stupid it is to blame people at all for this. I mean, if one is really looking to blame someone, shouldn't that person blame the person who gave the actual order, who had the information there in front of them, and chose not to look at it?

To be fair, show me where Young gave the order to stop Destiny at the planet, since he's the only authorized to make that decision.

While I knock Rush for not telling people about the fact they could possibly get home, the show clearly contradicts the energy transfer point. Rush and Dunning were knocked, we see the aliens tapping away at the consoles, and then the energy transfer reversed. Would Rush have faked something to keep everyone on Destiny? Possible, but we don't know. It's also possible he thought he could remain with the aliens, since he felt they were a research team.

No. the show clearly shows that energy transfer stopped before Rush was stunned. And everybody assuming that it was the Aliens that reversed the power flow.
As I have stated on other postings, if you were the Aliens, wouldn't you stay until it finished? Or at least leave one or two behind? That's exactly what Rush did. Stay behind until a connection was established to Earth, or so he said.

Just so we're clear: Do you blame Rush solely? Do you absolve Eli, Park, Brody, Volker, and Young of any and all responsibility for their role in the affair? because you do know they all had access to the same data, right? And thus were equally guilty of either missing it, or not saying anything, right?

Yes, I place the blame sorely on Rush because he didn't have the AUTHORITY to make that decision.

A number of which have been destroyed since, or been seized by various LA factions(remember, the LA isn't truly united) or the Jaffa nation or the Tok'ra or other small factions we may not be aware of. I'm sure if the LA pulls all it's ships off it's other outposts and such, leaving them undefended in a bid to attack Earth, they might be a bit of a threat. But other people would then take advantage of the LA's weakness to capture those resources. In that light, it would be stupid of the LA to do so. And I"m still not convinced they have shields which can stand against the Asgard beam weapons. They also can't build numbers like the wraith. IF they have shipbuilding capabilities, it can't be better than the Goa'uld, which showed that ships were individually built wherever there were resources.

Obviously, we don't know the details. And without details, we're only guessing. And that's my point. It's pointless to extrapolate because we don't have enough data to form a theory, or even a reasonable guess.

The only reason I bring blame onto Eli, Park, Brody, and Volker

Like I said previously, don't blame Eli or Volker because they were on the shuttle, and therefore would have had very little time to actually look at any data.
And Brody is more of a handyman. And Park seems more like an assistant.

people want to blame Rush due to him knowing about conditions on the planet and not telling anyone.

I place the blame sorely on Rush, because HE DECIDED to stop Destiny without any AUTHORITY to do so.

You're really trying to twist things enough so that you can blame Rush without blaming Young. Sorry, it can't be done. Young could have said yes or no to the shuttle, and given his attitude, he wants to bet he person in charge. He could have asked for more information on the planet, too.

Not quite. Young IS in charge. He has THE authority to make command decisions. WHEN did Young have the chance to make the choice to stop Destiny near the planet?

Young was ultimate the guy in charge. The buck stops there, as it were.

NOW you might finally get it.
Like YOU said,
Young was ultimate the guy in charge
The buck stops there
So, ultimately, shouldn't Young be the one who decided whether to stop Destiny near the planet?

Oh, puppet account then?

No, rational, common sense argument that you can't answer.

Quite a pointless question for this discussion, and it's not entirely a cut-and-dried answer. Technically he does, but only grudgingly so because he doesn't have much of a choice.

Because he feels the man is growing increasingly unstable. Which is a valid criticism (not that I think Rush is much better, if he is indeed hallucinating).

Not quite. It is the crux of the point.
If he doesn't recognize it, then why did Rush use it to declare that Gen O'Neill put him in charge in 'Air'?
You don't use it to try to take charge, and ignore it when it doesn't suit you.

Again, a pointless question, but I do try to answer the questions posed by my opponent in a debate; I feel it is only courteous. Technically speaking, no one gave him authority to stop the planet. In one respect, I suppose you could say his stomach, and the stomach of everyone else aboard. Even if you believe Rush is callous with regards to anyone elses lives, he does need them from a logical perspective.

Realistically speaking, Young is authorized to Command any and all resources available to him. Destiny, shuttle, personnel, food, water, etc...
If Rush wants to exist within that realm, he has to abide by Young's decisions, whether he likes or agrees with them or not. You don't get to pick and choose which ones you'll accept. And you certainly don't get to make any decision that affects those resources without his approval.

He didn't, which is a silly question to ask in the first place, I think. No one is disputing that point.

If you're not disputing that Young didn't give Rush the order to stop Destiny near the planet, then, it follows that Destiny should not have stopped near the planet. Rush , and only Rush, made the decision without authority. All the cascading events that happened after that is Rush's fault.

Let me give you another example. You have a friend that is staying with you. He decides, without your permission, to give the car keys to your child. He goes out on s joy ride, and through no fault of his own, ice on the road at the corner, gets into an accident and the person sitting in the passenger seat dies.
Who bears the responsibility?
The child?
The passenger?
The ice on the road?
You, for having a car?, or for leaving the keys in the house? or for letting a friend stay with you?
Or, your friend, who decided without your permission, to give the keys?

We're all just human here, after all, and communication is hard. But I don't tend to let that difficulty make me plug my ears and give up. =)

No hard feelings. Like I say, if you don't have passion for your endeavor, don't partake in the endeavor.

I'll make my argument, you make yours, agree or disagree, we'll talk, and we'll keep civil. Can we agree on that?

[Misfits]

I know this episode created a lot of possibilities for the show, but seriously, the episode in itself was a disappointment. The show has to get more entertaining on a episode-to-episode basis. Everything is there, the actors, the visual effects, the concept. Everything is there to have a great show... For some reason, most of the episode aren't entertaining enough. This show won't survive, it'll never get good ratings.

Like saying goes, you can't please all the people all the time.

Let's say they changed something to make you happy, which in turn makes a different segment unhappy.

It's the good old damned if you do, damned if you don't, scenario.

I'm sure they're not doing this to lose their job. So, let's just sit back and watch.

[Kaiphantom]

No. the show clearly shows that energy transfer stopped before Rush was stunned. And everybody assuming that it was the Aliens that reversed the power flow.
As I have stated on other postings, if you were the Aliens, wouldn't you stay until it finished? Or at least leave one or two behind? That's exactly what Rush did. Stay behind until a connection was established to Earth, or so he said.

There has been some discussion on the aliens' motivation, but whatever side of the line people are on, everyone agrees on the sequence of events; that is, Rush and Dunning are knocked out, aliens tapping on controls/power reverses. But if you don't want to believe this, we can wait until the transcript is released so it is more easily quoteable.

Like I said previously, don't blame Eli or Volker because they were on the shuttle, and therefore would have had very little time to actually look at any data.
And Brody is more of a handyman. And Park seems more like an assistant.

Heh, it's interesting that you are referring to them pretty much how Rush would; with a bit a disdain regarding their skills and abilities. And they'd hate you for it. I guess you believe that Rush really is the only qualified scientist on the ship to really understand Destiny, eh?

Not quite. Young IS in charge. He has THE authority to make command decisions. WHEN did Young have the chance to make the choice to stop Destiny near the planet?

I'll use this bit to talk about the authority you keep bringing up. Yes, I agree only Young should have had the authority to decide to stop. Rush is obviously marching to his own drum. But consider this: Rush stops the ship. But if Young said: "Nope, not gonna send a shuttle, we'll just hang tight until the ship jumps again" that would be it. There wouldn't have been much Rush could do about it. He certainly couldn't have forced Scott to take the shuttle.

Do you agree on this?

Not quite. It is the crux of the point.
If he doesn't recognize it, then why did Rush use it to declare that Gen O'Neill put him in charge in 'Air'?
You don't use it to try to take charge, and ignore it when it doesn't suit you.

You do if your name is Rush. One of his problems is he does believe he should have run of the ship to do as he pleases, because he believes he is the most qualified. It's elitist arrogance. So what he did in Air was a valid complaint against him; he lied to take charge so he could begin organizing people to study the ship. Obviously, that didn't go so well, and was a stupid douchebag move of his.

If Rush wants to exist within that realm, he has to abide by Young's decisions, whether he likes or agrees with them or not. You don't get to pick and choose which ones you'll accept. And you certainly don't get to make any decision that affects those resources without his approval.

Ya know, it's interesting, because you're making Young sound like the dictator that people accuse him of being. Like his word is law, and you live or die according to his whim.

Let me give you another example. You have a friend that is staying with you. He decides, without your permission, to give the car keys to your child. He goes out on s joy ride, and through no fault of his own, ice on the road at the corner, gets into an accident and the person sitting in the passenger seat dies.
Who bears the responsibility?
The child?
The passenger?
The ice on the road?
You, for having a car?, or for leaving the keys in the house? or for letting a friend stay with you?
Or, your friend, who decided without your permission, to give the keys?

Again, your analogy isn't quite exact to the circumstances on Destiny. It would be more apt to say the friend took your keys, and holds them up and says, "I'm gonna give these to your kid; is that okay?" At that point, if I say yes, I'm at fault for what happens. If I say no, you put them back. The ultimate decision is in my hands, regardless of what you do.

No hard feelings. Like I say, if you don't have passion for your endeavor, don't partake in the endeavor.

I'll make my argument, you make yours, agree or disagree, we'll talk, and we'll keep civil. Can we agree on that?

Heh, that's a better response than I get from some other people. At least you can stand up for yourself, which is what I respect. Everyone has their own particular enjoyments and expectations from these forums, and I think it's pretty great that each person can come here and get what they want out of it. So yeah, keep talkin' and we'll have some fun. =)

[Misfits]

Just because they can protect themselves doesn't mean they're willing to start a fight. They must know, or at least assume, that there are more people on Destiny, carrying what are obviously weapons. There's only a dozen of them at most. Not good odds.

They didn't stay because they didn't have to. The transfer was in progress and they couldn't stick around when the other crew would be sending backup.

Also note that the entire ship was being locked down on the way out, and this was before Rush woke up. They were obviously trying to even the odds by preventing anyone from coming back to stop them.

The Aliens locking down the ship behind retreating Destiny crew makes perfect sense. However, if that was the case, the more likely that they would stay in the control room. You would want to prevent anyone from undoing the changes you made. In the end, it makes more rational sense that you would leave a detail behind.

[morbosfist]

The Aliens locking down the ship behind retreating Destiny crew makes perfect sense. However, if that was the case, the more likely that they would stay in the control room. You would want to prevent anyone from undoing the changes you made. In the end, it makes more rational sense that you would leave a detail behind.

If they stay they get shot. There are still people on the ship with guns. Once they knew they had evened the odds they came out again.

[Blackhole]

Good thing there are multiple people who could take a look at the data, like Eli, Park, Brody, and Volker. But shame on them for killing Riley. They should have told Young about the conditions on the planet!

You keep insisting that the other scientists' terminals provided the same information as those in the master control room, and as such are as guilty as Rush for not noticing the dangerous turbulence caused by the volcanic action. I don't agree with your conclusion but for now lets assume it is true. I could understand missing an obscure but important sensor reading of volcanic activity but I don't see how they all could have missed the fact that the planet was locked out. All of them including Young would have wondered why Destiny was stopping for a blocked planet. You have said many times that the planet was not locked out. It was - see the transcript below:

(He points to a readout on a screen.)

RUSH: ... this planet we're approaching: different classification entirely -- not merely locked out but it seems to be non-functional.

GLORIA: So it seems.

No evidence for this. In fact, the evidence goes AGAINST this, since they clearly have detailed analysis of planets coming up in the database (the whole reason they were able to believe the Icarus planet), AND they were clearly able to read the conditions of the Faith planet enough to determine it was safe to land. Given those two things, why wouldn't everyone else have access to the information about the Aftermath planet? You have to get past that bit first, otherwise you have to blame the other scientists for missing the data as well.

If all the terminals supply the same level of detail how do you explain this glaring oversight on Eli, Volker, Brody, and Park's parts?

No. Merely that you can't entirely depend on them. It's led us to dangerous planets before, and humans aren't stupid; they can handle things sometimes that Destiny might not think they can. And really, I think you're placing far too much emphasis on Destiny's supposed Aritificial Intelligence, when we've had no real indication that it has one. At best, it has a complex set of protocols based on predetermined criteria.

I don't agree with your conclusion but for now let us assume it is true. The information Rush missed was volcanic activity leading to super-rotation in the atmosphere. Neither of us knows how this information is displayed. Maybe it is only a sensor reading and one must understand planetary physics to extrapolate the danger. A fact that Rush missed and possibly the others as well.

At this point we don't know where the information from Gloria and Franklin is coming from. Either from a personification of the ship's AI or Rush's subconscious. In either case Rush missed it. His lapse is further evidence of how serious a mistake his decision to withhold his discovery of the bridge is.

Rush has access to the database of planets. He said they needed supplies NOW. If there was a better planet out there, it is logical to assume that Rush would have waited for the better planet.

A fair assumption but you are still missing the point. The responsibility for the shuttle disaster is his because he made several critical mistakes that led to the shuttle crashing. He first overlooked the vital sensor information that would have alerted him to the extreme atmospheric turbulence. This disastrous error could have been averted if he had heeded Franklin warning and aborted the shuttle's mission. Overwork, fatigue, and arrogance resulted in a catastrophic miscalculation and error in judgment on his part.

If Rush is going to withhold knowledge of his bridge control and unilaterally make decisions that effect the lives of everyone on board then he better be willing to assume the responsibility that goes with those decisions. Young with all his faults would be the first to acknowledge that as commander he is responsible for whatever goes down on the ship (the buck stops here).

See excerpt of transcript below:

BRIDGE. Nick has returned to the Bridge and is looking at his notebook while Gloria stands nearby watching him.

GLORIA: I'm worried about you, Nicholas.

RUSH (sighing without looking up): Yeah, so am I. I've got work to do and I can't seem to leave myself alone.

(A man's voice speaks. It's a voice that Nicholas knows.)

VOICE: You're missing things.

(Nick raises his head slowly and turns to look at the new arrival who has replaced the image of his wife. It's Jeremy Franklin, the man who went into the Control Chair to save Destiny from the alien invaders and then disappeared from the locked room.)

RUSH (softly): Doctor Franklin.

FRANKLIN: It's too much for one person. I don't care how smart you are.

RUSH: OK, so tell me: what am I missing?

FRANKLIN: Well, for one, the data on the planet.

RUSH: It's extensive. What about it?

FRANKLIN: You didn't notice the volcanic activity, the atmospheric super-rotation.

(Out in space, the shuttle is approaching the planet.)

SCOTT: A few minutes away now.

(Eli, who had been slumped lazily on his bench, sits up properly.)

(On Destiny's Bridge, Nicholas has sat down at a console and is looking at the screen.)

RUSH: It'll be fine. (He scribbles a quick calculation on his notepad.) They'll be fine.

FRANKLIN: You've based your calculation on optimal structural integrity.

RUSH: I've based it on the specs in the database.

FRANKLIN: Which don't account for flaws that were developed over ... I don't know ... say, a million plus years.

(Nick lifts his head as Franklin's information hits home, and he stands up and hurries over to another station and activates the comms.)

You're the one claiming the ship is all-knowing, and thus we should bow down to it and worship it. I personally feel it isn't.

I never have said the ship is all knowing. You sarcastically have tried to undermine my argument by making these ridiculous assertions. I have only maintained that the ships warnings are usually (if not always) trustworthy and very important to heed.

It is VERY relevant, because you are trying to blame Rush, and solely Rush for this.

Actually the most telling proof that Rush is to blame for the accident is from Rush's own mind and/or the evaluation of the ship's AI.

See excerpt of transcript below:

DESTINY BRIDGE. Nicholas is still busy looking at consoles as Gloria sits nearby.

GLORIA: You need to sleep, or you're just gonna make more mistakes.

(Nick lifts his head and glowers at her.)

RUSH: You know, it would be easier if you would actually help.

GLORIA: What makes you think I can?

RUSH: Can I speak to Franklin?

GLORIA: Who?

RUSH: One of two things is happening here. Either I'm losing my mind or you and Doctor Franklin have somehow been manifested by the ship in order to communicate with me. Now, he tends to be a little bit more helpful when it comes to technical matters.

GLORIA: Let's see. What are you trying to do?

RUSH: Figure out how to control how long Destiny stops when it drops out of F.T.L.

GLORIA: OK.

(She thinks for a moment, then grimaces.)

GLORIA: Can't help you with that. Sorry.

(Nick rolls his eyes tetchily.)

RUSH: Right. I am losing my mind.

(Slapping his notebook down onto the console, he stands up, walks over to the central station and sits down and looks at the screen.)

RUSH: There don't seem to be any Stargates coming up in Destiny's immediate path. Now, I have to stop this ship soon or we're gonna be out of range of the planet the team's stranded on.

GLORIA: And with no other Gates in range, you don't know how to explain to everyone else why the ship has stopped.

RUSH: Exactly. We can't just keep dropping in and out of F.T.L. I'm gonna damage the drives permanently. They have to run for a minimum of four hours each time they're activated which means, next time I drop out, I've got one last shot at this.

GLORIA: Why don't you just tell the truth? Ask for help.

RUSH: No. I can't.

GLORIA: Because Colonel Young can't be trusted?

RUSH (bitterly): He let the Lucian Alliance take over this ship. The man is mentally unstable and he's getting worse all the time. He nearly just killed a man.

GLORIA: Your negligence caused the shuttle to crash.

RUSH (glaring at her): The situation is desperate because of him. He's not fit to lead this mission.

If the bolded statement by Gloria above isn't clear evidence enough, then there is nothing I or anyone else can ever say that will ever convince you. Rush is your golden boy and in your eyes can do no wrong. If that is the case then any continued debate is pointless for both of us.

[Misfits]

That is one interpretation. I disagree though. I think the Destiny merely follows the seedships, and when this seedship broke down, it stopped producing gates. Thus, even though Destiny is doing what it usually does (following the seedships, it doesn't encounter any gates as this one was broken.

Listen to yourself. Destiny follows the seed ships, as in plural, more than one. Just because one stops, it wouldn't prevent the others from continuing to seed the planets. Which is the reason why there are so many gated planets in Destiny's path.

It would be impossible for Destiny to keep all data it ever received. There's no way you could create a data storage device that could retain all the data gathered over a thousand years, never mind over a million+ years. Therefore, it would be reasonable to conclude that this docking and transfer of data is done periodically, because Destiny had so much data of upcoming gated planets in it's data bank.

Above all, we actually don't know if this one broke down. Brody theorizes this, however the more logical conclusion would be that this is a periodic event.

[morbosfist]

Listen to yourself. Destiny follows the seed ships, as in plural, more than one. Just because one stops, it wouldn't prevent the others from continuing to seed the planets. Which is the reason why there are so many gated planets in Destiny's path.

It would be impossible for Destiny to keep all data it ever received. There's no way you could create a data storage device that could retain all the data gathered over a thousand years, never mind over a million+ years. Therefore, it would be reasonable to conclude that this docking and transfer of data is done periodically, because Destiny had so much data of upcoming gated planets in it's data bank.

Above all, we actually don't know if this one broke down. Brody theorizes this, however the more logical conclusion would be that this is a periodic event.

It would make no sense for this to be a periodic event. If a seeder ship stops, then its no longer seeding gates. Now, if they are doing this periodically on some sort of schedule, you end up hitting a point where there are no more seeder ships ahead of Destiny, because they've all stopped at some point and are now, at best maybe a few planets ahead at one time. Furthermore, if finite data storage is a problem, then what you suggest here would only result in a bottleneck. Unless these "stops" are on the order of tens of millions of years (well beyond what the Ancients ever intended) then you'd run out of seeder ships long before the Ancients ever got around to visiting their project.

[PG15]

Listen to yourself. Destiny follows the seed ships, as in plural, more than one. Just because one stops, it wouldn't prevent the others from continuing to seed the planets. Which is the reason why there are so many gated planets in Destiny's path.

Unless this seed ship was tasked with seeding this part of space and couldn't complete the task.

Obviously every seed ship is heading in the same direction along the same general path (otherwise we wouldn't get the corridor of gates); thus, some seeders must be tasked with seeding specific parts of this corridor. How that is worked out is obviously unknown, but if each is tasked with a stretch of the path, then one of them breaking down = a part of the corridor with no gates, exactly what Destiny has encountered.

It would be impossible for Destiny to keep all data it ever received. There's no way you could create a data storage device that could retain all the data gathered over a thousand years, never mind over a million+ years.

That's not even close to impossible, not when the same species created the Ancient Repository of Knowledge.

[Kaiphantom]

You keep insisting that the other scientists' terminals provided the same information as those in the master control room, and as such are as guilty as Rush for not noticing the dangerous turbulence caused by the volcanic action. I don't agree with your conclusion but for now lets assume it is true. I could understand missing an obscure but important sensor reading of volcanic activity but I don't see how they all could have missed the fact that the planet was locked out. All of them including Young would have wondered why Destiny was stopping for a blocked planet. You have said many times that the planet was not locked out. It was - see the transcript below:

(He points to a readout on a screen.)

RUSH: ... this planet we're approaching: different classification entirely -- not merely locked out but it seems to be non-functional.

GLORIA: So it seems.

Um, the transcript says it wasn't locked out. Unless I'm somehow misreading the "NOT merely locked out" part.

If all the terminals supply the same level of detail how do you explain this glaring oversight on Eli, Volker, Brody, and Park's parts?

Simple. They, like Rush, failed to notice the details of the planet or considered it not such a big deal. Or, alternatively, a big ole plot hole by the writers. They've blatantly showed us several times before that the seeder ship sends back info on planets with gates, and it's apparently detailed enough to show some planetary conditions. And they blatantly showed us that they can scan planets from the core room when in system (also from the shuttle). If there was any question to ask a writer like JM, this would be it, but I have a feeling they'll come up with a half-ass reason rather than admit it was a plot hole. Or probably, like I said, just say that all of them missed that information because they are human and thus not perfect.

I don't agree with your conclusion but for now let us assume it is true. The information Rush missed was volcanic activity leading to super-rotation in the atmosphere. Neither of us knows how this information is displayed. Maybe it is only a sensor reading and one must understand planetary physics to extrapolate the danger. A fact that Rush missed and possibly the others as well.

Park is shown to have some knowledge of planetary tectonics. In Darkness/Light, she had a big spiel she gave to a Kino talking about a tidally-locked planet and that it means earthquakes. Volker is an astrophysicist, so analyzing planets would be right up his alley (he was one of the first to identify the stuff about the Faith planet and star, and that they seemed really weird).

At this point we don't know where the information from Gloria and Franklin is coming from. Either from a personification of the ship's AI or Rush's subconscious. In either case Rush missed it. His lapse is further evidence of how serious a mistake his decision to withhold his discovery of the bridge is.

I agree. I've been saying all along that I feel his decision to hide the bridge is a bad one. I can understand why he does it, but I still feel it's ultimately bad.

A fair assumption but you are still missing the point. The responsibility for the shuttle disaster is his because he made several critical mistakes that led to the shuttle crashing. He first overlooked the vital sensor information that would have alerted him to the extreme atmospheric turbulence. This disastrous error could have been averted if he had heeded Franklin warning and aborted the shuttle's mission. Overwork, fatigue, and arrogance resulted in a catastrophic miscalculation and error in judgment on his part.

Let's break things down chronologically:

Rush finds the planet, and feels they have to stop due to low supplies (everyone else on the ship seems to feel that supplies are a big problem), so he stops the ship - The stopping is solely on Rush

Because of fatigue, Rush misses supposedly vital planetary data; of course, so does everyone else - blame Rush, Eli, Brody, Park, and Volker for this if you must.

Young orders the ship to go - you can blame Young solely for this, especially since he didn't bother to ask what conditions were like on the planet. He seemed to feel the mission was worth undertaking, given their supply situation.

Almost an hour later, when the ship is almost to the planet, Franklin has his chat with Rush, who finally contacts the shuttle - You can blame Rush for not telling Young and having the shuttle turn around if you like at this point, but you can also blame Park and Brody for not figuring this out, either.

If Rush is going to withhold knowledge of his bridge control and unilaterally make decisions that effect the lives of everyone on board then he better be willing to assume the responsibility that goes with those decisions. Young with all his faults would be the first to acknowledge that as commander he is responsible for whatever goes down on the ship (the buck stops here).

Heh, you might wanna rethink that last one. It was Young's decisions that led to the disastrous LA situation, and he plans to keep on truckin'

I never have said the ship is all knowing. You sarcastically have tried to undermine my argument by making these ridiculous assertions. I have only maintained that the ships warnings are usually (if not always) trustworthy and very important to heed.

Usually? So, which planet is your favorite? The death by desert one? The death by poisonous atmosphere, quakes, and microorganisms in the ice one? Or the death by chest-burrower ones? Hell, the ONLY planet Destiny has stopped at that hasn't tried to kill them is the Faith one. Well, the Big Spider planet wasn't too dangerous, I suppose. This is what we call in the business: "Heckuva job, Destiny!"

GLORIA: Your negligence caused the shuttle to crash.

If Gloria is a hallucination and part of Rush's subconscious, then yes, Rush thinks he bears responsibility. But there is a difference between someone who thinks they are guilty, and whether they actually are. A child who has a parent die, may think they are to blame, even if they are told over and over it was not their fault.

Last note to you: If you're going to reply again, then please understand this point I have said numerous times: Rush isn't my goldenboy, and I've been the first one to knock him for the douche things he's done. If you really don't believe me, I'll get you a list, and the first one up there would be stranding everyone on Destiny, closely followed by framing Young for murder. Of course, if you want to play that game, then I guess you see Rush as the epitome of all evil and he can do no good in your eyes?

[UniverseSizePlotHole]

It would be impossible for Destiny to keep all data it ever received. There's no way you could create a data storage device that could retain all the data gathered over a thousand years, never mind over a million+ years. Therefore, it would be reasonable to conclude that this docking and transfer of data is done periodically, because Destiny had so much data of upcoming gated planets in it's data bank.

I suppose they have run out of Gate ID numbers too (like IP addresses you'd think there would be some form of identifier apart from Gate Address) because if say 10 000 gates were seeded per year that's 10 billion gates or more - really the question is how forward thinking were the Ancients?