Is Telford right about his statement on Earth's actions

[Azzers]

It's not our duty to help every civilization that needs it, especially with the limited amount of resources we have. Now, if we had a load of planets to produce resources on, we could do more towards helping out. But even then, it wouldn't be a requirement of us to do so.

Wasn't this Senator Kinsey and Maybourne's point?

But there's a risk reward there. Destroying someone's government and trade infrastructure is fine if you intend to rebuild it with something else. And the Goa'uld are viewed in simplistic terms when we go with "evil." Yes, they exploited their labor.

But since their labor understood their roles, understood their worlds, and probably at least got a modicum of trade to get what they didn't have. In other words, they may have been oppressed, but they were stable. You know what they didn't have (or at least weren't explicitly shown to have)? Engineers, trade routes, scientists, legal systems, or just about any other piece of a stable society that you and I would take for granted.

So in essence, the destruction of the Goa'uld is the destruction of their civilization. WHY would they be happy about this if you did not assist them further than that? You know what Earth is in that situation? We're the barbarians who sacked Rome. History doesn't remember them fondly either.

Truthfully, it is not Earth's complete fault for what happened. As I think the SG1 went on, it's serendipity how it occurred. Earth was trying to survive. The Goa'uld kept exposing their necks. So I don't think it's fair to be morally judgemental about Earth in this situation. BUT, the fact remains that (at least as far as human history is concerned) that people who destroy civilizations but do not build them are usually NOT looked at very well. Earth doesn't like the responsibility? Tough. Next time, don't open the gate.

[Flyboy]

Uhh, political debate against USA. That's even better than SGU

Oh stop being so sensitive. The US wasn't the only damn country involved in the two invasions. My dear country was indeed one of them as well, as were others. It is NOT a debate against the US, or indeed any country to observe the FACT - yes, FACT, that following there was no 'Phase 4' planning, ie, nation building in place for after the wars themselves had been one. Afghanistan more so because of the hurry to invade Iraq, but Iraq similarly suffered. In these instances, the people, despite being liberated from oppressive regimes, found their country a FAR MORE hostile and dangerous location where insurgency was and indeed IS rife. This is a fact. It's why we cannot predict an end to the COIN operations in Afghanistan.

It is a DIRECT paralell to the situation in Stargate Universe, remember, that's what sci fi does, it uses extraordinary settings to comment on real world issues.

[AVFan]

That line of thinking is EXACTLY why despite fantastic victories in the war phase of both Afghanistan and Iraq, the COIN operations will continue for God knows how long.

Yes and no. In Afghanistan/Iraq, I believe we have the resources to help these people out, and that we should. However, there's no chance in heck that we could help out hundreds of billions (presumably) of individuals across the galaxy to the point that they need it. We don't have the resources or manpower to do so.

On a side note, not all civilizations want our help. The Jaffa are a proud people, and they don't want anything to do with our help. After being reliant upon the Goa'uld for life for 5k+ years (possibly 8k+ according to the movie), they're ready for freedom from anyone and everyone. In one of the episodes, they're worried about their reliance upon us for Tritonan, saying that it wouldn't be much better than reliance upon the Goa'uld for symbiotes. My point is that if certain civilizations don't want our help, we can't be held responsible for what happens to them from then on.

On a third note, who's to say that we HAVEN'T been helping people across the MW out? Just because it's not shown onscreen doesn't mean anything except that the writers are trying not to bore us. Besides, since the last time a major enemy fell in the MW (AoT), only one movie has happened. And, to be fair, the only thing that really actually happened for our SG-1 is them going to an extraction ceremony then coming home. There hasn't been any time to mention humanitarian aid.

[s09119]

Oh stop being so sensitive. The US wasn't the only damn country involved in the two invasions. My dear country was indeed one of them as well, as were others. It is NOT a debate against the US, or indeed any country to observe the FACT - yes, FACT, that following there was no 'Phase 4' planning, ie, nation building in place for after the wars themselves had been one. Afghanistan more so because of the hurry to invade Iraq, but Iraq similarly suffered. In these instances, the people, despite being liberated from oppressive regimes, found their country a FAR MORE hostile and dangerous location where insurgency was and indeed IS rife. This is a fact. It's why we cannot predict an end to the COIN operations in Afghanistan.

It is a DIRECT paralell to the situation in Stargate Universe, remember, that's what sci fi does, it uses extraordinary settings to comment on real world issues.

Thank you. I'm so sick of people calling the anti-America card whenever anyone references anything related to the United States on here.

[Deevil]

Yes and no. In Afghanistan/Iraq, I believe we have the resources to help these people out, and that we should. However, there's no chance in heck that we could help out hundreds of billions (presumably) of individuals across the galaxy to the point that they need it.

We, as in Earth, don't need the resources to help these people. They need to be taught how to help themselves. When you liberate people who have been as greatly oppressed as many of the people have been, you are left with the responsibility of helping them learn and adjust to the new situation that they are in.

Earth has, essentially, dropped the ball on this because they believed freedom was enough. The Jaffa and the Tokra are equally responsible in this was well, so there is enough man power to teach the people how to help themselves, it's just that no one has thought to do it. So you are left to renegade groups like the LA who help themselves in often seedy ways...

As Flying Officer Bennett said, this is a nice mirror of what has or is happening in reality.

[Azzers]

We, as in Earth, don't need the resources to help these people. They need to be taught how to help themselves. When you liberate people who have been as greatly oppressed as many of the people have been, you are left with the responsibility of helping them learn and adjust to the new situation that they are in.

While I believe the solution is sound, I still think that's a little over simplified. We're not talking about ten our twelve worlds here that got left in a vacume of power. We're talking hundreds, maybe thousands of worlds. Even with the best intentions, the US and the IOA combined would not have the kind of human resources available to pull this off.

I don't argue the moral imperative OR the other world's right to be ticked about Earth's lack of action But there is a realistic limitation that AVFan is not wrong about here. The world doesn't have that many "society builders" in it. Let alone enough to fix thousands of planets. Again, for every world we have to think about who we'd need to send.

Presumbably, a legal expert, a few engineers, survey teams, a government expert, teachers, linguists (although everyone inexplicably speaks English), medical personnel, an agricultural expert, a trade expert, and probably thirty other things I can't think of off the top of my head per planet. And those are experts. People who'd be employed on one planet for years helping the natives learn in a few years the basic principles it's taken them a lifetime to fully understand.

And that's a best case sceneario with no resistance and where the population does what you ask it to, listens, and isn't paranoid that you're trying to screw them. Good luck with that because that's only ONE planet.

So I guess my stance is this: Earth is the bad guy, but not intentionally. Earth never had the power or resources to do what it needed to do. They got lucky to win. They were not staged for some sort of galactic victory however. This bad outcome was inevitable.

[RJLCyberPunk]

While I believe the solution is sound, I still think that's a little over simplified. We're not talking about ten our twelve worlds here that got left in a vacume of power. We're talking hundreds, maybe thousands of worlds. Even with the best intentions, the US and the IOA combined would not have the kind of human resources available to pull this off.

I don't argue the moral imperative OR the other world's right to be ticked about Earth's lack of action But there is a realistic limitation that AVFan is not wrong about here. The world doesn't have that many "society builders" in it. Let alone enough to fix thousands of planets. Again, for every world we have to think about who we'd need to send.

Presumbably, a legal expert, a few engineers, survey teams, a government expert, teachers, linguists (although everyone inexplicably speaks English), medical personnel, an agricultural expert, a trade expert, and probably thirty other things I can't think of off the top of my head per planet. And those are experts. People who'd be employed on one planet for years helping the natives learn in a few years the basic principles it's taken them a lifetime to fully understand.

And that's a best case sceneario with no resistance and where the population does what you ask it to, listens, and isn't paranoid that you're trying to screw them. Good luck with that because that's only ONE planet.

So I guess my stance is this: Earth is the bad guy, but not intentionally. Earth never had the power or resources to do what it needed to do. They got lucky to win. They were not staged for some sort of galactic victory however. This bad outcome was inevitable.

Well I think that the only reason they stick to English is Budget. But most likely the most common language in the SG universe Milky Way Galaxy is Goa'uld. That means off course that the Lucian Alliance must have been operating on Earth for quite some time now since Kiva and the others had to speak English to get around.

Other than that you are right about the rest but is pointles to try to argue with those that insist on this school of thought because they are the same ones who think that humans are the most evil species, that Naquadah explodes at the tip of a hat and so on so I'm going to end this with a very true quote

There's no overwhelming majority, just a few people with too much time on their hands who like arguing for the sake of arguing. Pointless really. In such things the message is not important, it's just an exercise of persuasion and ego.

They don't represent the views of the complete fandom, only their own. A vocal minority is not the majority.

I assume that this is about 'Are humans the most evil species in SG' & Related threads, yeah, I just rolled my eyes and browsed on. A friend once said that it's like watching monkeys slinging poo.

Words to live by...

[Deevil]

While I believe the solution is sound, I still think that's a little over simplified. We're not talking about ten our twelve worlds here that got left in a vacume of power. We're talking hundreds, maybe thousands of worlds. Even with the best intentions, the US and the IOA combined would not have the kind of human resources available to pull this off.

Yeah, you missed the part where I didn't solely think Earth should take responsibility, the Jaffa and Tok'ra are just as bad. That being said, it's not impossible to help these people. All it needs is sound planning, and probably inviting them to Earth or another planet to teach them how to care for themselves. Basics like farming, rudementary first aid and the like can be taught reasonably well. Set up trade alliances with other planets etc.

It's about actually working out a plan which they didn't have together in the first place because I don't think they even expected to win. It happens.

The point is to offer help. If they don't want your help you don't help them (I'm a big fan of that), and not every planet will need the same level of help. I'm not proposing that we bring democracy and all the trappings of western society. Just to help them with the basics, like farming and trade. Let the societies work out their own stuff beyond that.

So I guess my stance is this: Earth is the bad guy, but not intentionally. Earth never had the power or resources to do what it needed to do. They got lucky to win. They were not staged for some sort of galactic victory however. This bad outcome was inevitable.

It was, I'm not denying that. But realistically - Telford wasn't wrong in what he said. Earth did essentially do what he accused them of. Imagine how it'd look to those planets out there, abandoned by the people who liberated... and to add insult to injury, they may not have wanted to be liberated in the first place.

[s09119]

It was, I'm not denying that. But realistically - Telford wasn't wrong in what he said. Earth did essentially do what he accused them of. Imagine how it'd look to those planets out there, abandoned by the people who liberated... and to add insult to injury, they may not have wanted to be liberated in the first place.

Exactly. People seem to be assuming that this argument is about something it's not... all that's being claimed is that Telford's analysis of what Earth did was correct. It had nothing to do with us being evil or the Goa'uld being good guys or anything else. It's one thing that people are twisting to make it sound like something else.

[RJLCyberPunk]

You are right about one thing at no point did Earth or any it's allies expected to win against either the Goa'uld empire or the Ori, they just hoped to keep them at bay with their guerrilla tactics. This was not like WWII with huge battles and an armistice in the end. There was no armistice. On that note I find irritating how arrogant some military officers are in the show pointing out at one time in SGA as I recall how they kicked the butts of both the Goa'uld and the Ori when it was all sheer dumb luck Earth was not turned into cinders by either party and everyone that has watched Stargate can agree to this.

[s09119]

You are right about one thing at no point did Earth or any it's allies expected to win against either the Goa'uld empire or the Ori, they just hoped to keep them at bay with their guerrilla tactics. This was not like WWII with huge battles and an armistice in the end. There was no armistice. On that note I find irritating how arrogant some military officers are in the show pointing out at one time in SGA as I recall how they kicked the butts of both the Goa'uld and the Ori when it was all sheer dumb luck Earth was not turned into cinders by either party and everyone that has watched Stargate can agree to this.

Yeah, because the Allies totally expected to win as the Nazi war machine tore across France and chased them across the Channel.

[skarwolf]

Hello guys,

Just wondering something here. Col. Telford told Young that Earth has caused so much problems when they defeated the Goa'uld. They freed the people and now there is chaos everywhere.

Is he right or not?

On space they showed the SG-1 episode called "It's Good to be King" and the beginning has the SG-1 crew detailing events going on in the wake of Anubis' demise and the system lords struggles. To every point Oneil says basically "And this matters .... why ?" In his usual sarcastic tone. He doesn't give a damn, so yes Earth is partially to blame for all the resulting chaos. If SG-1 doesn't care they'll end up having to deal with the rising chaotic factors eventually so given what technological superiority they currently have they should begin to colonize and expand.

"If we wish to make a new world we have the material ready. The first one, too, was made out of chaos. "

[the fifth man]

To an extent, Telford did have a valid point. But, continued rule under the Goa'uld would not have been a better option.

[RJLCyberPunk]

On space they showed the SG-1 episode called "It's Good to be King" and the beginning has the SG-1 crew detailing events going on in the wake of Anubis' demise and the system lords struggles. To every point Oneil says basically "And this matters .... why ?" In his usual sarcastic tone. He doesn't give a damn, so yes Earth is partially to blame for all the resulting chaos. If SG-1 doesn't care they'll end up having to deal with the rising chaotic factors eventually so given what technological superiority they currently have they should begin to colonize and expand.

"If we wish to make a new world we have the material ready. The first one, too, was made out of chaos. "

Umm... They were speaking about Goa'uld and their damn struggles why would he even care about Goa'uld. As I recall they went to try to save Mayborne and the people he had at the time under his rule.

[Ben 'Teal'c would WIN!!' Noble]

I don't think Sam, Daniel, Jack and Teal'c would be too happy to hear WE are the bad guys. Maybe we should hold a rock concert Live Aid MW .