Is Telford right about his statement on Earth's actions

[Pharaoh Atem]

Hello guys,

Just wondering something here. Col. Telford told Young that Earth has caused so much problems when they defeated the Goa'uld. They freed the people and now there is chaos everywhere.

Is he right or not?

yes but just like Pegasus it will work itself out.

[Gollumpus]

What does it feel like to argue without a leg to stand on?

Uhm, you'd be well grounded...?

But seriously, Telford was right. Whether he was brainwashed or not, his analysis of the situation was spot on; Earth dislodged and destroyed an order that had stood for thousands of years without even once thinking that it would do to the billions of people that lived under it. The Goa'uld may have been monsters, but they provided law, trade, sustenance, and protection. Earth removed all that without bothering to replace it... or making sure the people they freed could provide it for themselves.

Personally, I don't really believe that Earth was thoughtless about what would happen if the Goa'uld were dislodged and destroyed. The point of power vacuums was raised several times in SG-1 episodes. The purpose of fighting the Goa'uld was to preserve our planet, our lifestyles (despite the screw ups we are), our very lives. To my mind, everything else is number two on the "to do" list. If something could be done to assist the TRILLIONS of beings spread over HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of planets then I'd be all for it. Do you have any suggestions on how to proceed?

Is Earth supposed to send in forces of occupation to control these planets until they are able to get on their feet (and form a government of which we approve)? How many planets are you suggesting we help? All of them? What if they don't want our help? Are we to roll in anyways because we don't believe their leaders? What if they are operating a society which has goals with which we do not agree? How many people is this going to take? Just how much resources does the SGC have at its disposal? How much in the way of resources does Earth have to carry out a mission of this magnitude?

The irony of the situation is that while the Goa'uld may be gone the system of "government" they practiced would still be there. All that has been removed is the leadership. The vacuum would be filled, on a local or planetary level, likely be local functionaries of the previous administration. On a larger scale, several groups like the LA would weigh in looking to carve out a niche for themselves. We have not been shown much of what is going on in this galaxy since the Goa'uld fell. We've some developments in the Jaffa nation, but the LA seems to be the main group filling the power void. I would like to think there are other groups out there which work on a "higher" level than the LA.

I do not see the peoples of this galaxy being worse off than where they were perhaps twenty years ago. Are there wars and power struggles going on now? Yes. Were there wars and power struggles going on for thousands of years before that? Yes. Do they now have an extremely powerful overlord controlling them? No. Would a group like the still forming LA be easier to knock out than the well entrenched Goa'uld empire? I'd say, yes.

To my mind they're better off now than they were twenty years ago.

regards,
G.

[Duneknight]

The Travellers seem alot like Lucian alliance, am i the only one whos alittle suspicious of them? i mean the wear leather too.

[Flyboy]

It's not our fault that the writers make everything Earth does in the show the result of American action and no one else

But seriously, Telford was right. Whether he was brainwashed or not, his analysis of the situation was spot on; Earth dislodged and destroyed an order that had stood for thousands of years without even once thinking that it would do to the billions of people that lived under it. The Goa'uld may have been monsters, but they provided law, trade, sustenance, and protection. Earth removed all that without bothering to replace it... or making sure the people they freed could provide it for themselves.

Indeed. There is a very obvious comparison to both Afghanistan and Iraq and the lack of Phase 4 planning involved.

Don't get me wrong. I support the removal of the Taliban regimen, and indeed believe that Saddam Hussein had to go (though the WMD excuse was a poor one), however the coalitions involved in both operations failied to effectively consider their course of action for once the war phase of the operation had been achieved and lacked any consideration for nation building and stabilisation until the insurgency became too much to bear and both states realised something had to be done. It is EXACTLY the same in the Gateverse. Earth did the right thing in combatting the goa'uld, but did NOT appreciate the fact that an intersteller version of the insurgency in Iraq and Afghanistan would logically ensue once the galaxy was plunged into anarchy. Whether it would have been possible to plan for such events given the large scope of the galaxy is questionable, but Telford's point is entirely valid.

[RJLCyberPunk]

Indeed. There is a very obvious comparison to both Afghanistan and Iraq and the lack of Phase 4 planning involved.

Don't get me wrong. I support the removal of the Taliban regimen, and indeed believe that Saddam Hussein had to go (though the WMD excuse was a poor one), however the coalitions involved in both operations failied to effectively consider their course of action for once the war phase of the operation had been achieved and lacked any consideration for nation building and stabilisation until the insurgency became too much to bear and both states realised something had to be done. It is EXACTLY the same in the Gateverse. Earth did the right thing in combatting the goa'uld, but did NOT appreciate the fact that an intersteller version of the insurgency in Iraq and Afghanistan would logically ensue once the galaxy was plunged into anarchy. Whether it would have been possible to plan for such events given the large scope of the galaxy is questionable, but Telford's point is entirely valid.

Now that I can agree with, still as another poster asked how do you suggest we as a planet that is by no means united proceed to help uinify and stabilize all the other worlds in our Galaxy, plus the Pegasus galaxy? Where do we even begin to get the resources to make that happen when we are just one measly little planet that by sheer dumb luck did not get wiped out by either the Goa'uld or the Ori.

[xxxevilgrinxxx]

So...rather than retract your nonsense kneejerk "OMG THEY HATE AMERICA" falsehood, you're going to both go off on ludicrous hyperbole and Godwin yourself?

Okay then.

Yes, so why do you keep bringing the subject up across multiple threads?

I have run out of green to give today, apparently, so you'll both have to be mentally greened

[s09119]

Now that I can agree with, still as another poster asked how do you suggest we as a planet that is by no means united proceed to help uinify and stabilize all the other worlds in our Galaxy, plus the Pegasus galaxy? Where do we even begin to get the resources to make that happen when we are just one measly little planet that by sheer dumb luck did not get wiped out by either the Goa'uld or the Ori.

How come you agree with him and not my post which is what he was confirming

And if the SGC knew they wouldn't be able to deal with the aftermath, they shouldn't have gone invading every Goa'uld planet in the Milky Way. We could have protected ourselves as the threats came our way, but instead chose to be more aggressive in our war. I'm not saying I know how we could have done it better, I'm not a strategist, but it's a basic tenant of warfare that you must plan for all phases of a conflict... including what comes when all the bombs have fallen. Earth failed to do that rather spectacularly.

[J_schinderlin56]

Let's look at the Facts for a moment please:

1. The Earth Stargate Program did NOT remove the Goa'uld from power. They were destroyed by the Replicators. We stopped the Replicators, if we hadn't they would have destroyed the galaxy. Afterward, the Jaffa rose up on their own and renounced the Goa'uld after learning that REBEL JAFFA had captured Dakara.

2. Earth has provided aid and support to many worlds. To the Tok'Ra, Jaffa, Tolan, anyone else who asked for it.

My Opinion:
The L.A. is a Criminal Orginization that uses murder, greed, Torture, theft, and, Drug Addiction to gain power. And Earth has done something for the rest of the galaxy by thwarting their efforts.

Telford was not right in any form. We had every right to protect ourselves. Earth will use the tech it gains for a positive purpose. The L.A. will use it to control the galaxy just as the Goa'uld would have.

If anyone doubts that Go back and watch SG-1 again.

[s09119]

Let's look at the Facts for a moment please:

1. The Earth Stargate Program did NOT remove the Goa'uld from power. They were destroyed by the Replicators. We stopped the Replicators, if we hadn't they would have destroyed the galaxy. Afterward, the Jaffa rose up on their own and renounced the Goa'uld after learning that REBEL JAFFA had captured Dakara.

2. Earth has provided aid and support to many worlds. To the Tok'Ra, Jaffa, Tolan, anyone else who asked for it.

My Opinion:
The L.A. is a Criminal Orginization that uses murder, greed, Torture, theft, and, Drug Addiction to gain power. And Earth has done something for the rest of the galaxy by thwarting their efforts.

Telford was not right in any form. We had every right to protect ourselves. Earth will use the tech it gains for a positive purpose. The L.A. will use it to control the galaxy just as the Goa'uld would have.

If anyone doubts that Go back and watch SG-1 again.

Let's go over the facts again:

1. Stargate Command directly or indirectly caused the deaths of many Goa'uld, and by the time the Replicators finished them off, their empire was on the verge of collapse. We may not have completely ended their reign, but we did everything short of it.

2. Evidence? We provided some medical supplies to the odd planet that asked for it here and there, but we've never seen Earth give anything substantial in large amounts to any large number of worlds.

Of course the Lucian Alliance are a bunch of scum, no one's saying otherwise. It's not that Telford's argument that they deserve Destiny that we agree with, it's his statement that Earth acted with complete disregard for the billions/trillions of humans that would be directly affected by our actions.

[RJLCyberPunk]

Let's go over the facts again:

1. Stargate Command directly or indirectly caused the deaths of many Goa'uld, and by the time the Replicators finished them off, their empire was on the verge of collapse. We may not have completely ended their reign, but we did everything short of it.

2. Evidence? We provided some medical supplies to the odd planet that asked for it here and there, but we've never seen Earth give anything substantial in large amounts to any large number of worlds.

Of course the Lucian Alliance are a bunch of scum, no one's saying otherwise. It's not that Telford's argument that they deserve Destiny that we agree with, it's his statement that Earth acted with complete disregard for the billions/trillions of humans that would be directly affected by our actions.

Time to move this debate here:

http://forum.gateworld.net/threads/7...-were-a-threat

[J_schinderlin56]

Let's go over the facts again:

1. Stargate Command directly or indirectly caused the deaths of many Goa'uld, and by the time the Replicators finished them off, their empire was on the verge of collapse. We may not have completely ended their reign, but we did everything short of it.

2. Evidence? We provided some medical supplies to the odd planet that asked for it here and there, but we've never seen Earth give anything substantial in large amounts to any large number of worlds.

Of course the Lucian Alliance are a bunch of scum, no one's saying otherwise. It's not that Telford's argument that they deserve Destiny that we agree with, it's his statement that Earth acted with complete disregard for the billions/trillions of humans that would be directly affected by our actions.

Anubus would have returned without our involvment and would have dominated the Sytem Lords. The protected planets were no longer protected.

The Replicators would have defeated the Asgard without our help and would have attacked the Goa'uld anyway, it was only a matter of time. And they would have defeated the Goa'uld.

Anubus mighthave used the weapon at Dakara to destroy all life in the galaxy, so if we had done nothing either:
1. The Replicators would have killed everyone in the galaxy
2. Anubus would have killed everyone

I've seen no evidence that the destruction of the Goa'uld Empire caused any sort of horrible impact on the galaxy, with the exception of the rise of the L.A., which Earth is working to thwart.

The L.A. aren't doing anything to "Survive" they are motivated by greed.

[s09119]

Time to move this debate here:

http://forum.gateworld.net/threads/7...-were-a-threat

Time to not load questions or derail a thread doing fine on its own.

[TheHomegaMan]

The L.A. aren't doing anything to "Survive" they are motivated by greed.

Of course. The SGC isn't looking to destabilize/break up/defeat/depose the Lucian Alliance. To do so would be to threaten its survival.

edit to add: Every major Milky Way power (including Earth) got that power through either Ancient technology, reverse engineering Ancient technology, or having an ally who provided them with Ancient technology. The Lucian Alliance, if it wishes to be a major MW power, needs to do the same. My suspicion is that Destiny would represent a huge step forward for the current leftover Goa'uld/Lucian Alliance technology.

[geewillie86]

I think that it's important to point out that it was the replicators who killed the majority of the Goa'uld, not the Tau'ri.

[TheHomegaMan]

I think that it's important to point out that it was the replicators who killed the majority of the Goa'uld, not the Tau'ri.

The ongoing war with Earth severely weakened the entire System Lord hierarchy. Long before the Replicators turned their sights on the Milky Way, we were destabilizing the Goa'uld. Think about it. In roughly 8 years, we went from realizing this Stargate could go to multiple places to killing major System Lords, fomenting a rebellion among the what was essentially the Goa'uld military, and paralyzing Goa'uld expansion with the help of the Asgard.

Sure, the Replicators may have knocked the final domino down for the System Lords, but Earth knocked the first one over a long time ago. Hell, even without the Replicators coming to the Milky Way, the same fate awaited the Goa'uld. It may have taken longer, and the power vacuum wouldn't have been so sudden, but get real. The goal of the SGC was never to simply let them have their system of government and religion. The System Lord hierarchy had to go, as did the Goa'uld posing as gods. There could be zero compromise on a permanent basis on those two points.

To bring it back on topic, though, we have to realize that at no point on SG-1 did they really say "Now what?". Can anyone honestly believe that the Lucian Alliance just popped up out of nowhere and became a major power so quickly? Think about things a bit. In slums all over the world there are areas where the criminals maintain law and order better than the government. There's justice, of a sort, and the feeling of protection if you pay a price of whatever sort. My suspicion is that this is how the LA has been growing in significance. Between the kassa and the fact that they're able to run a rather large interstellar syndicate, the Lucian Alliance could be a mighty tempting home for worlds struggling with not hearing "KNEEL BEFORE YOUR GOD" on a daily basis.

Assuming Telford truly isn't brainwashed, rather than simply denying it, he's arguing that the Lucian Alliance has stepped in and assumed the duty that was incumbent upon the SGC after the Replicators attacked. Earth brought this upon itself for always proceeding with the idea that the Goa'uld system of government could not be allowed to exist. We were the last super power standing after the Goa'uld-Replicator conflict, so we're stuck with the check.