'Lost' (115) General Discussion

[SG7]

Exactly, aliens get typecast. Which is why part of me hopes that we actually see some complex alien characters, even if they don't join the ship. While they occur sometimes in books, I've rarely seen any in television. I personally adore well-done, complex aliens, but they're hard to find. If SGU could actually pull it off, it might open the door for that type of thing. Otherwise, forget it.

Agreed. I would love to see an alien join the crew on Destiny that would be complex and not necessarily "completely human" looking.

[Blackhole]

I agree. While I don't think Rush had sufficient reason to frame Young, I can see how he reached that conclusion. And I can see why Young left Rush to die. At the end of the day, though, the level of the two crimes don't meet each other; Rush is callous and sneaky, but he hasn't yet committed or attempted to commit murder, that we know of. The thing with Franklin is still a matter of who's story you want to believe. Even if I believed Rush intentionally convinced Franklin to sit down, manipulating someone into a life threatening situation is not quite the same as trying to kill them. It's not much better, mind you.

I too think that Young hasn't really faced any consequences for his actions on the planet yet, and that he will have to sooner or later.

Rush sent everyone from the Icarus Base to an unknown and likely very dangerous destination. At least 6 people have died from that action. It is true that the subsequent deaths were not directly his fault. But the simple fact remains that Rush is directly responsible for the hardship and misery of everyone on the Destiny and their family and friends a universe away and indirectly for the deaths. He “forced” Franklin into the chair by Robert Carlyle’s own admission in the interviews on the MGM website. A more definitive proof of Rush’s intent couldn’t be asked for and Franklin remains in a coma. He tried to frame his commander for murder by planting a gun in his quarters. And he staged a mutiny for self-serving reasons - to try to remove Young from command because he was afraid he would kill him when he found out about the alien implant in his chest. I can understand his fear of Young but the clear fact remains that he was willing to hide the implant’s existence from the crew and put them all at continued grave risk. I feel for Rush’s situation, but unfortunately the implant had to be deactivated immediately regardless of the Risk to Rush. And the simple fact remains that Young didn’t try to kill Rush and handled the surgical removal as fairly and safely as he could and Rush did not suffer any apparent ill effects.

I am not going to deny that Young left Rush on the planet - to die is not absolutely clear. I have posted before that I thought it likely that Young suspected that Rush had a DHD device on him and could have gated to another planet to find food and water. So his action may not have been a guaranteed death sentence; although, I won’t dispute his survival would have been difficult. What Young did was wrong by his own admission, but it was done out of anger in the heat of the moment and Rush did severely provoke him. And the simple fact remains Rush did return to the Destiny relatively unharmed. This action was an isolated incident and was the only incident that was clearly harmful. After Rush was discovered on the alien ship Young’s decision to fire on it while Rush and Chloe were still on board may have been questionable but that is not clear. Imo, beating up Teleford was minor and he deserved it. If one is going to try to measure wrongs committed by each party imo, the scales of malicious and harmful actions and intent are tipped far more to Rush’s side.

[LtColCarter]

Rush sent everyone from the Icarus Base to an unknown and likely very dangerous destination. At least 6 people have died from that action. It is true that the subsequent deaths were not directly his fault. But the simple fact remains that Rush is directly responsible for the hardship and misery of everyone on the Destiny and their family and friends a universe away and indirectly for the deaths. He “forced” Franklin into the chair by Robert Carlyle’s own admission in the interviews on the MGM website. A more definitive proof of Rush’s intent couldn’t be asked for and Franklin remains in a coma. He tried to frame his commander for murder by planting a gun in his quarters. And he staged a mutiny for self-serving reasons - to try to remove Young from command because he was afraid he would kill him when he found out about the alien implant in his chest. I can understand his fear of Young but the clear fact remains that he was willing to hide the implant’s existence from the crew and put them all at continued grave risk. I feel for Rush’s situation, but unfortunately the implant had to be deactivated immediately regardless of the Risk to Rush. And the simple fact remains that Young didn’t try to kill Rush and handled the surgical removal as fairly and safely as he could and Rush did suffer no apparent ill effects.

I am not going to deny that Young left Rush on the planet - to die is not absolutely clear. I have posted before that I thought it likely that Young suspected that Rush had a DHD device on him and could have gated to another planet to find food and water. So his action may not have been a guaranteed death sentence; although, I won’t dispute his survival would have been difficult. What Young did was wrong by his own admission, but it was done out of anger in the heat of the moment and Rush did severely provoke him. And the simple fact remains Rush did return to the Destiny relatively unharmed. This action was an isolated incident and was the only incident that was clearly harmful. After Rush was discovered on the alien ship Young’s decision to fire on it while Rush and Chloe were still on board may have been questionable but that is not clear. Imo, beating up Teleford was minor and he deserved it. If one is going to try to measure wrongs committed by each party imo, the scales of malicious and harmful actions and intent are tipped far more to Rush’s side.

I concur...I feel the same way.

[SG7]

I concur...I feel the same way.

I get the impression that it will take a while before both Young and Rush get to a place where they can at least work together. And when that does happen, that will be better for everyone on board the Destiny.

[Blackhole]

I get the impression that it will take a while before both Young and Rush get to a place where they can at least work together. And when that does happen, that will be better for everyone on board the Destiny.

I completely agree. Rush’s behavior since Divided has been far better. He seems to be doing all that he can to further the interests of the ship and to protect everyone. He has even risked his life twice and tried very hard to find the missing group. Young has also tried very hard to keep things running smoothly. His complete lack of a punitive response to the civilians after Divided imo says volumes. Since Young is in charge the burden falls to him to sincerely extend an olive branch to Rush and acknowledge all that he has done. He needs to reassure him that he will take no further action against him as long as he continues to behave in the best interests of the ship. He needs to go out of his way to treat Rush with respective and courtesy to prove to him that his promise is completely genuine. Young is smart enough to realize that if an opportunity arises that offers a way home that he will need to scrutinize Rush in the closest possible fashion. Unfortunately, I still suspect Rush may put his obsessive desire to continue the mission on Destiny ahead of helping them all return. Although, one hopes as Rush continues to regain his humanity that will change.

[SG7]

I completely agree. Rush’s behavior since Divided has been far better. He seems to be doing all that he can to further the interests of the ship and to protect everyone. He has even risked his life twice and tried very hard to find the missing group. I also think Young has tried very hard as well. His complete lack of a punitive response to the civilians after Divided imo says volumes. Since Young is in charge the burden falls to him to sincerely extend an olive branch to Rush and acknowledge all that he has done. He needs to reassure him that he will take no further action against him as long as he behaves in the best interests of the ship like he has been. I also think he needs to go out of his way to treat Rush with respective and courtesy to show him that his promise is entirely genuine. I still think Young is smart enough to realize that if an opportunity arises that offers a way home that he will need to scrutinize Rush in the closest possible fashion. Unfortunately, I still suspect Rush may put his desire to continue the mission on Destiny ahead of helping them all return. Although, one hopes as Rush continues to regain his humanity that will change.

Couldn't have said it better myself

As for finding a way home, once they do that, I'm sure it spells the end of the show. So I don't see that happening anytime soon. Unless Rush indeed does know or find a way home but doesn't say anything to anyone and keeps on the mission that he's on for his own gain or whatever.

[Blackhole]

Couldn't have said it better myself

As for finding a way home, once they do that, I'm sure it spells the end of the show. So I don't see that happening anytime soon. Unless Rush indeed does know or find a way home but doesn't say anything to anyone and keeps on the mission that he's on for his own gain or whatever.

Thanks. Very true.

[BobbyScars]

I notice you put "center" in quotations, but I just have to ask. What do you mean? As far as my knowledge goes, there's no "center" of the universe, and there are no parts of the universe itself that are older/younger than others. There are areas where older galaxies exist, but even then a galaxy's age may not be a good correlate of advanced alien species being present.

I guess I'm just confused on what you meant here.

You hit the nail on the head, the reason I put center in quotations is because technically there is no center. But if the writers are going based on the big bang theory than the origins of the universe started somewhere which would be the "center".

And Daro you are right, making a human alien would be insane beyond comprehension, but in order for the audience to accept a new character like that you would need to bring them in early. Also due to the fact that most men watch this show you need to make this new character a hot alien of some kind, but she will be strong because you dont want to alienate the women who watch the show as well. So keep an eye on a hot probably blue alien with a strong will... wait a sec.

The new character on SGU

[Daro]

Rush sent everyone from the Icarus Base to an unknown and likely very dangerous destination. At least 6 people have died from that action. It is true that the subsequent deaths were not directly his fault. But the simple fact remains that Rush is directly responsible for the hardship and misery of everyone on the Destiny and their family and friends a universe away and indirectly for the deaths. He “forced” Franklin into the chair by Robert Carlyle’s own admission in the interviews on the MGM website. A more definitive proof of Rush’s intent couldn’t be asked for and Franklin remains in a coma. He tried to frame his commander for murder by planting a gun in his quarters. And he staged a mutiny for self-serving reasons - to try to remove Young from command because he was afraid he would kill him when he found out about the alien implant in his chest. I can understand his fear of Young but the clear fact remains that he was willing to hide the implant’s existence from the crew and put them all at continued grave risk. I feel for Rush’s situation, but unfortunately the implant had to be deactivated immediately regardless of the Risk to Rush. And the simple fact remains that Young didn’t try to kill Rush and handled the surgical removal as fairly and safely as he could and Rush did not suffer any apparent ill effects.

I am not going to deny that Young left Rush on the planet - to die is not absolutely clear. I have posted before that I thought it likely that Young suspected that Rush had a DHD device on him and could have gated to another planet to find food and water. So his action may not have been a guaranteed death sentence; although, I won’t dispute his survival would have been difficult. What Young did was wrong by his own admission, but it was done out of anger in the heat of the moment and Rush did severely provoke him. And the simple fact remains Rush did return to the Destiny relatively unharmed. This action was an isolated incident and was the only incident that was clearly harmful. After Rush was discovered on the alien ship Young’s decision to fire on it while Rush and Chloe were still on board may have been questionable but that is not clear. Imo, beating up Teleford was minor and he deserved it. If one is going to try to measure wrongs committed by each party imo, the scales of malicious and harmful actions and intent are tipped far more to Rush’s side.

You make a good argument.

I am certainly not going to argue with you on the count of Rush causing, indirectly, far more deaths than Young. And I don't consider the actor's take on it as proof; Robert Carlyle says that he doesn't read ahead, he plays in the moment, and so he may have a completely different interpretation on the scenes than someone else. And besides, using the opinion of a writer or actor from outside the plot of the story seems to against the spirit of figuring out these morally ambiguous characters for ourselves. That's most of the fun of SGU, for me.

I still would not use 'forced,' even if things did play out as Franklin being coerced. It was obvious that Franklin was up to something by sending Eli away. The idea that Rush could force a man literally twice his size to do something is pretty unbelievable. Do I think it's more likely than not that Rush put the idea in his head purposefully? Yes, it seems more likely than not. Though I would note that Dr. Rush had been working on the interface program from the point he got access to the chair on; if he was going to go the safe route by developing software that specifically targeted his own memories, would he really waste a somewhat valuable resource out of pure curiosity? Maybe, I think it's still one of those things that can't be answered yet.

What I judge Young more harshly on is intent. Young has intentionally tried to cause someone to die. Whether Rush deserved it or not, the action put the crew of Destiny in danger. I hold Young to a higher standard in his actions because he's the leader, he's supposed to set an example, and he deliberately did something contrary to what he knows is right. I would have fully supported him putting Rush on trial by the same system he'd set up in that episode. Rush, for all his callousness and indiferance to human life, doesn't seem to intend to hurt anyone. I think he blinds himself to the human cost of his actions. It doesn't make him better, it just puts his particular evil deeds in a different light for me. Many scientists have inadvertantly caused the deaths of other people by an invention or their research. People like that usually get jail sentances, if they are prosecuted at all, but they don't get sent to death row. Attempted murder is as bad as murder when I judge by the standard of intent v. outcome. It's really a matter of personal opinion on which is worse.

I'm not saying, either, that Rush doesn't have to answer for what he's done either. I think he does, though I think he's paid a lot more for his mistakes than Young has thus far, and that's why I say that I think that Young still has to face a reckoning for what he's done.

I intended to make the argument from Rush's POV, too, as to why he wouldn't be ready to give up on the feud permanantly. Perhaps I slipped into my own opinions too much.

[xxxevilgrinxxx]

I concur...I feel the same way.

add me to that

.... seems to against the spirit of figuring out these morally ambiguous characters for ourselves. That's most of the fun of SGU, for me.

I still would not use 'forced,' even if things did play out as Franklin being coerced.

.... I hold Young to a higher standard in his actions because he's the leader, he's supposed to set an example, and he deliberately did something contrary to what he knows is right. I would have fully supported him putting Rush on trial by the same system he'd set up in that episode. Rush, for all his callousness and indiferance to human life, doesn't seem to intend to hurt anyone. I think he blinds himself to the human cost of his actions. It doesn't make him better, it just puts his particular evil deeds in a different light for me. Many scientists have inadvertantly caused the deaths of other people by an invention or their research. People like that usually get jail sentances, if they are prosecuted at all, but they don't get sent to death row. Attempted murder is as bad as murder when I judge by the standard of intent v. outcome. It's really a matter of personal opinion on which is worse. ....

it is part of the joy of SGU, that ambiguity that seems to infuse every episode, every action. There are so many different takes on each, and none of them is necessarily wrong, just wrong for us in particular I don't agree with you on Rush's intentions (or Young's actions) but it doesn't make you wrong, IMO. However, i think i may be a little odd in that I accept that I can hold two conflicting thoughts and they don't really go to war in my head. My whole world is a shade of grey

Higher standard due to position as leader. it's very interesting because a lot of people have made the claimn that he's somehow not fit to lead, but he's, at the same time, held to this higher stand AS a leader. His authority is apparently not in question, even if his actions occasionally are.

On coercion, we'll have to disagree. Coercion is a force, perhaps even more of a force when it comes from someone like Rush, on his "own people". If Young is to be judged as a leader, Rush should be held to the same standard, as a defacto leader of the scientists. Rush IS an authority to them, and some small thing that he hints at has a lot of weight. He needed someone to sit in that chair and I think he engineered the circumstances but because he can in all truth say that he didn't force anyone physically, he can dodge that responsibility. I don't believe that Young has dodged the responsibility for what he's done. Maybe in the larger, charged with a crime sense he has, but he has come forward to Rush (who's also not blameless there) and they decided to work it out for the good of the crew. I fully believe that Young accepts that it wasn't right, that he slipped.

Many scientists have inadvertantly caused the deaths of other people by an invention or their research. People like that usually get jail sentances, if they are prosecuted at all, but they don't get sent to death row.

This bears some repeating. I don't want to go all godwin, and am definitely not accusing Rush of war crimes, but yes, scientists certaintly do cause deaths and sometimes they end up prosecuted as war criminals for doing so. It's a disconnect, the "greater good", whereby the actual humans being harmed are considered incidental when you look at the larger picture of what the scientist is aiming for. I believe that rush falls into this category. He's not evil, he's just willing to overlook the actual people involved if they serve a purpose he deems important.

One of the things that has started to happen since Human is that Rush is apparently changing. With Lost, he went searching for those that were lost (although one of them is Eli, and he does need Eli). Young essentially put him in charge of the 'away team' also, didn't he? I'll be interested to see where he goes in sabotage.

[Daro]

add me to that


it is part of the joy of SGU, that ambiguity that seems to infuse every episode, every action. There are so many different takes on each, and none of them is necessarily wrong, just wrong for us in particular I don't agree with you on Rush's intentions (or Young's actions) but it doesn't make you wrong, IMO. However, i think i may be a little odd in that I accept that I can hold two conflicting thoughts and they don't really go to war in my head. My whole world is a shade of grey

Higher standard due to position as leader. it's very interesting because a lot of people have made the claimn that he's somehow not fit to lead, but he's, at the same time, held to this higher stand AS a leader. His authority is apparently not in question, even if his actions occasionally are.

On coercion, we'll have to disagree. Coercion is a force, perhaps even more of a force when it comes from someone like Rush, on his "own people". If Young is to be judged as a leader, Rush should be held to the same standard, as a defacto leader of the scientists. Rush IS an authority to them, and some small thing that he hints at has a lot of weight. He needed someone to sit in that chair and I think he engineered the circumstances but because he can in all truth say that he didn't force anyone physically, he can dodge that responsibility. I don't believe that Young has dodged the responsibility for what he's done. Maybe in the larger, charged with a crime sense he has, but he has come forward to Rush (who's also not blameless there) and they decided to work it out for the good of the crew. I fully believe that Young accepts that it wasn't right, that he slipped.

This bears some repeating. I don't want to go all godwin, and am definitely not accusing Rush of war crimes, but yes, scientists certaintly do cause deaths and sometimes they end up prosecuted as war criminals for doing so. It's a disconnect, the "greater good", whereby the actual humans being harmed are considered incidental when you look at the larger picture of what the scientist is aiming for. I believe that rush falls into this category. He's not evil, he's just willing to overlook the actual people involved if they serve a purpose he deems important.

One of the things that has started to happen since Human is that Rush is apparently changing. With Lost, he went searching for those that were lost (although one of them is Eli, and he does need Eli). Young essentially put him in charge of the 'away team' also, didn't he? I'll be interested to see where he goes in sabotage.

I think the argument that Young is not fit to lead is actually bolstered by the argument that he is to be held to a higher standard. After all, the fact that he's not doing a 'bang up job' despite having a much less negative impact on the crew's welfare has led to a schism in the crew. I'm not simply making a moral argument about that: any leader is a politician. Whether he should or not be held to a higher standard than Rush or anyone else, he is. And that's why Rush can get sympathy easier than Young sometimes, because Rush doesn't have the same expectations on him. He's a leader, yes, and while I'm going to say that I will have to disagree with you indeed about our opinions on whether Franklin was forced or not, you make an excellant point. Rush is a leader too, whether he likes it or not. I think he's been ducking the moral responsibility of that, and by doing so has damaged the ability of the crew to place faith in him ever, even if he does redeem himself (which he seems to be at least making some progress on.) He's also been the single person most responsible for loss of morale, at least indirectly. Young would come in second in my book, but at least he isn't intentionally saying he doesn't care what anyone else thinks of him as an excuse to only do what he wants to.

I'd rather not have to hate either of them. I like the grey shades and the way the two characters perfectly compliment each other. And yes, I need to see Sabotage...why is it Thursday? I'm betting that some firery arguments will erupt over that episode.

[xxxevilgrinxxx]

...why is it Thursday? I'm betting that some firery arguments will erupt over that episode.

I\m usually like a kid at christmas waiting for Friday but this week really has me all sitting on the edge of my seat. I have no idea where it will jump after Lost!

[Blackhole]

You make a good argument.

I am certainly not going to argue with you on the count of Rush causing, indirectly, far more deaths than Young. And I don't consider the actor's take on it as proof; Robert Carlyle says that he doesn't read ahead, he plays in the moment, and so he may have a completely different interpretation on the scenes than someone else. And besides, using the opinion of a writer or actor from outside the plot of the story seems to against the spirit of figuring out these morally ambiguous characters for ourselves. That's most of the fun of SGU, for me.

I still would not use 'forced,' even if things did play out as Franklin being coerced. It was obvious that Franklin was up to something by sending Eli away. The idea that Rush could force a man literally twice his size to do something is pretty unbelievable. Do I think it's more likely than not that Rush put the idea in his head purposefully? Yes, it seems more likely than not. Though I would note that Dr. Rush had been working on the interface program from the point he got access to the chair on; if he was going to go the safe route by developing software that specifically targeted his own memories, would he really waste a somewhat valuable resource out of pure curiosity? Maybe, I think it's still one of those things that can't be answered yet.

What I judge Young more harshly on is intent. Young has intentionally tried to cause someone to die. Whether Rush deserved it or not, the action put the crew of Destiny in danger. I hold Young to a higher standard in his actions because he's the leader, he's supposed to set an example, and he deliberately did something contrary to what he knows is right. I would have fully supported him putting Rush on trial by the same system he'd set up in that episode. Rush, for all his callousness and indiferance to human life, doesn't seem to intend to hurt anyone. I think he blinds himself to the human cost of his actions. It doesn't make him better, it just puts his particular evil deeds in a different light for me. Many scientists have inadvertantly caused the deaths of other people by an invention or their research. People like that usually get jail sentances, if they are prosecuted at all, but they don't get sent to death row. Attempted murder is as bad as murder when I judge by the standard of intent v. outcome. It's really a matter of personal opinion on which is worse.

I'm not saying, either, that Rush doesn't have to answer for what he's done either. I think he does, though I think he's paid a lot more for his mistakes than Young has thus far, and that's why I say that I think that Young still has to face a reckoning for what he's done.

I intended to make the argument from Rush's POV, too, as to why he wouldn't be ready to give up on the feud permanantly. Perhaps I slipped into my own opinions too much.

I am afraid that I still have to disagree with your conclusion on the "force" comment made by Robert Carlyle (RC). For RC to play Rush effectively he certainly is going to need to know ahead a time if he is trying to manipulate Franklin into doing something life threatening or not. The intent behind his action is going to change the emotional content of his performance entirely. He certainly is going to know how much cold bloodiness the writers had intended for Rush’s character or not. He chose to use the term “forced”. It is a direct quote and a very strong and telling term. He said “Rush forced Franklin to sit in the chair.” If you are going to exclude anything but the show as source material for your evaluation then determining intent is not resolvable. In my mind RC’s statement clearly indicates that at the time he played the scene the motivation he drew upon to portray Rush’s character was one of a malicious intent. Rush needed a sacrificial dupe to experiment on. This means that at the very least he manipulated Franklin to sit in the chair or at the very worst he forced him to by coercion. Either act is indicative in my mind, of a frighteningly cold and calculating degree of ruthlessness on Rush’s part. Prior to RC’s confirming revelation of the intent behind his character the jury had been out to the degree of ruthlessness that Rush had possessed. Now - imo the verdict is in. Looking back at all of Rush’s past questionable actions through the filter of RC’s statement paints Rush in a far more sinister and evil light and lends far more credence to Young’s pre-Divided view of him as reckless and a threat to Destiny.

Young can’t be held to any higher standard than Rush. He was head of the military and Rush was head of the scientists. Rush’s actions were calculated and deliberate. Young’s action to strand Rush while too drastic was done in the heat of the moment. Rush crossed a line with Franklin and with his framing attempt and deserved a severe punishment. He shouldn’t have been marooned by Young, but he was far from the innocent or benign party that many posters (not you) like to try and paint him. When you play with fire sometimes you end up getting burned. Rush learned a very painful lesson, luckily it didn’t cost him his life.

[SG7]

Thanks. Very true.

Yeh, well the whole premise of the show is "we're lost and can't get back home" something about "not being in Kansas anymore"?!

[SG7]

I\m usually like a kid at christmas waiting for Friday but this week really has me all sitting on the edge of my seat. I have no idea where it will jump after Lost!

I second that! I think I mentioned previously in either this thread or the "TJ Young" thread that Saturdays are like Christmas to me. As that is the day I get to see the new SGU episode, and it is also my Friday at work! (Everyone at my work has two days in a row off but not necessarily the same two days as the next person)

If my dad remembers to tape it for me then double bonus as I don't have to watch with commercials, and if he forgot, then oh well, just turn on the tube at his house at 8pm on SPACE and get to watch the reairing of the episode. SPACE runs the episode on Friday nite and then again on Saturday nite.

And after seeing pics of tommorrows episode on MGM's website, I am absolutely going crazy looking forward to the episode. Even more so than normal. Ever since "Faith" where I saw that absolutely brilliant performance by AH, I have been dying to watch episodes! She is really what has made me want to watch each week!